MBB: Midwest Conference

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

It comes back to the definition.  I've always thought MVP was the award for the criteria you layed out, while POY was for the best overall player, regardless of how they affect the team.  I haven't seen Hinz, but Braier just blew my mind.  He's a great player.

[hjmphelp]

Remember that most of the discussion around Wally ( ) has been for "Freshman of the Year" if the MWC even has such an honor. He is already a difference maker and most certainly will be a POY contender in the very near future...like maybe next year.

[jeffdc]

Remember that most of the discussion around Wally ( ) has been for "Freshman of the Year" if the MWC even has such an honor. He is already a difference maker and most certainly will be a POY contender in the very near future...like maybe next year.

Hey, not to burn too many electrons on my favorite team (well, ok, sure!  ), but I think the thing that sets this year's GC team apart from previous years (and taking nothing away from Grotberg) is the way the squads work together. They've already attained a level of interplay that I only saw previously on GC teams comprised mainly of seniors and juniors. All this from freshmen and sophmores! This is a great year for GC fans.

Best of luck to the squad tomorrow night as they meet MC!!

[titan2000]

Gents:

do you think that Kroeger can be an outright scoring player for LU in 2006/2007?
If he can, do we have a reload situation here with Hurley, Kroeger, Kadison taking over for Braier, Bradley and McGillis?  

And when will Greg Stiesima transfers to Caroll--he fits their tranfer profile

[kbanya30]

It turned out to be another good weekend for Carroll, beating both GC and then IC on the road. I dont care how good a team you are but winning both games on a long road trip like that says something. The pioneers now have 3 straight home games they must win, they can not afford a let down. Good Luck Pioneers

P.S. its good to see falco back on board, damn liberals

[Old Fighting Scot]

probably next year, definitely in two years,  the backourt at LU will be much better than it is now.  (yes i have seen them play). the talent is already there, but it is awfully hard to not take into consideration playing in the national tourney and winning consistetnly for four years. 
after seeing LU in the OC i said they played like 20 twenty guys and never really lost a step.  it will be hard to replace braier and macgilly but they will be getting better in the backourt...

and you never know they may just get some more freshman ballers from chicago(how does he do that) to stop the bleeding. 

my thoughts....
POY Braier Hinz Maclin Grotberg (if he was only getting 20 a night he wouldnt be on here, but 30 is a lot in any system) Drury
MVP Hinz (BC doesnt win without him) Braier (LU still wins and contends in MC but isnt undefeated)

[viking68]

In response to all of the talk about POY - I don't understand how people are still discounting Braier (okay, strong language, maybe putting Hinz and others above him). First I read that LU is going to be horrible next year without him, yet, somehow, they have such depth that they could still be winning without him. To grade someone down for POY simply because he has a good team around him is stupid and beneath the obvious intelligence of the posters on this board.

If the argument is based on numbers, which it seems to be, Braier stacks up against anyone in all categories. Although, I am starting to see some arguments (T-Bird Teacher) that claim the value of the player to his team is more important, which puts it in the MVP category rather than POY. But, just based on numbers, here is the comparison:

Braier - 15.6 pts/game (7th), 12.0 reb/game (1st), 2.06 steals/game (T-4th), 4.44 assists/game (4th)
Hinz - 20.6 pts/game (3rd), 10.2 reb/game (2nd)

If we are just looking at numbers, Hinz matches up well in Points and Rebounds, but Braier does EVERYTHING!! In my mind, that is what makes a POY - someone who makes his team better and does it all on the court.

Hinz is a great player and a great scorer and there is no doubt that Beloit would be very far out of contention at this point without him, but to say he is more deserving of POY is absolutely wrong...

In answer to T-Bird Teacher, I would say "yes". I think Braier has the skills to score like Hinz if he were on a worse team. He has done it on numerous occasions - when the team needs him to score, he does it, when they need assists, he does it, when they need defense, he does it. But, I also think that he elevates his team - if he were on Beloit's current team, I think he would raise the level of everyone's play and wouldn't have to "take over".

[T-Bird Teacher]

Vik68-

In reference to the steals stat.  I did say that Hinz isn't as good of a defender, so that would show that stat true.  But as far as assists, it is hard to get those assists if the guys around you can't put it in.  Also, Hinz is looked to to score for that reason alone.  He needs others to step up and make a shot.  He IS getting others the ball, they just aren't doing anything with it.

[TeeDub]

But as far as assists, it is hard to get those assists if the guys around you can't put it in.  He needs others to step up and make a shot.  He IS getting others the ball, they just aren't doing anything with it.

This reads like it should be on the posting up for lakershoop.com

[The Roop]

Hinz makes it look too easy to win anything. I realize that's a good thing but voters don't always feel the same. Defensively he plays very smart by not collecting stupid fouls. If he's beat he concedes the basket and lives to fight another day. In a way  he's been forced to do that as some of the others have developed hacking problems of late. If you reach it's a foul in the MWC whether you make contact or not.

[Sam Johnson]

In reference to the steals stat.  I did say that Hinz isn't as good of a defender, so that would show that stat true.  But as far as assists, it is hard to get those assists if the guys around you can't put it in.  Also, Hinz is looked to to score for that reason alone.  He needs others to step up and make a shot.  He IS getting others the ball, they just aren't doing anything with it.

T-bird~
Two things to note about Braier vs. Hinz in the assists column...1) Braier is bettering Hinz almost 3-1 (4.4 vs 1.7). Even if you take into account the lack of a equal supporting cast, this is still a decent margin. Also, Beloit isn't shooting such a terrible FG % that I would blame it solely on his teammates. 2) Braier leads LU in assists by a 1 per game margin over the #2 Viking, MacGillis.  He actively looks for his teammates, something that Hinz should be doing (if he's double/triple teamed as much as is discussed) even if the rest of the team isn't as good as LU's.

To agree with others on the board, it comes down to what criteria you judge them by.  And recent history in the MWC seems to indicate that the POY is based off of #'s a little more than it is based off of what the player means to the team...and Braier definately wins a numbers battle.  Now, if I can only get time to calculate tempo free stats, I could add them to the discussion and things could get even more interesting.......

[Early]

In answer to T-Bird Teacher, I would say "yes". I think Braier has the skills to score like Hinz if he were on a worse team. He has done it on numerous occasions - when the team needs him to score, he does it, when they need assists, he does it, when they need defense, he does it. But, I also think that he elevates his team - if he were on Beloit's current team, I think he would raise the level of everyone's play and wouldn't have to "take over".

Very good statement there.  I've only seen Braier play once....but he does EVERYTHING.  Down the strecht, Larry does go to him.  He happens to pass the ball too.  Big shots? he'll hit them.  if he is not open?  He'll find someone that is.  Big rebound?  Duh.  Loose ball?  It's his.  He does EVERYTHING.

POY, MVP, Whatever it is Braier.  He would have gotten it last year except for Tommy Becker.

I still know Becker.

[scottie]

Alright, you ding-dongs.  Since you think Bopper now has some competition for MVP, POY and GWOY (Grotberg Wannabe of the Year), here's a little head to head comparison from 1/10/06:

## Player Name          FG-FGA FG-FGA FT-FTA OF DE TOT PF  TP   A TO BLK S MIN
34 Chris Braier........ *  5-16      1-2         3-5    4   6   10   3   14   0  2    0   2  34
34 Josh Hinz........... *  6-10      1-2         3-4    2   8   10   3  16   3  4    2   0  35

Although these numbers are pretty similar, I'd say that in this game Hinz won the battle.....but Bopper won the war.  And until I see somebody posting up "___ days until Hinz is gone," then I'll cast my vote of public opinion for Braier.

p.s. These two have a rematch next Wednesday.

[The Roop]

Scottie,

And because Beloit still has one with Grinnell coming you can coun't on hearing Josh Hinz, Josh Hinz, Josh Hinz all day Saturday from the PA announcer.

Systemfan86,

Are you suggesting another fan club needs to be formed

[titan2000]

Dear "Roop":

With all due respect, can Hinz get up and down the court for enough minutes to matter vs. Grinnell?  The Bopper could when LU played them but the guards should lead you in scoring unless you don't have any at Beloit. 

I see that the governor is taking credit for bringing a potato chip facotory to Beloit--he should take some credit before he goes to the license plate factory himself.