MBB: Midwest Conference

[LU_nut]

MWClifer

your teams are strong.  hard to argue much with any of them except one item........I'd put Grotberg over Johnson.  From a numbers (first in scoring) and more importantly what he did for his team.  He is the difference between GC last year and GC this year.  Johnson had more around him and the team still did not make the playoffs. 

Again, real strong list....one debate is not much.

[Greek Tragedy]

I'd put Grotberg over Johnson.  From a numbers (first in scoring)

He plays for Grinnell, what do you expect?  Of course his scoring average is going to be real high.  I don't think you can use that part of the equation for your argument.

[LU_nut]

Old School

I recognize the inflation in numbers, but even if you normalize it some, it was a good year.  he would be strong in any system.  He can create his own shot which is very rare at this level.

Nut

[Mr. Ypsi]

I'd put Grotberg over Johnson.  From a numbers (first in scoring)

He plays for Grinnell, what do you expect?  Of course his scoring average is going to be real high.  I don't think you can use that part of the equation for your argument.

With due respect, your argument makes sense ONLY if 4 or 5 Grinnell players were in the top 10.  Grotberg is so far above other contenders (including other Grinnell players) that I think that argument is VERY weak.  As an outsider, I'd have to say that Grotberg is first team.

[titan2000]

I wonder if Grotberg will go to the NBA next year if he doesn't make the 1st team MWC ?

Maybe he'll come back to spite the voters. 

[hjmphelp]

Old School-
I'm confused here. You haven't seen Grotberg play so you are relying on Stats to make your judgement, then you want to throw out his scoring stat because he plays for Grinnell? Can I ignore Braier's rebounding numbers since he plays for a defensive team that relys on outrebounding opponents? 

I use coffee filters that hold more water than your arguement!

Those who have seen him play (thanks for the Grotberg props, lu_nut) know how important he is to his team, how easily he creates his own opportunity, how smooth, fluid and smart he is for a 1st year, or any year for that matter, etc. He is easily the best new guard in the conference, leads the conference AND the country - all divisions, mind you - in scoring, and has the mental toughness to carry his team through in close games. His contribution post nordlund is remarkable in and of itself.

He did this in HS playing 'normal ball' and did it on an AAU team loaded with D1 talent til he got hurt, did it in each of the few games he played in the Chicago summer leagues.  He has done it to every team in the MWC twice (Except CC and St Norby who GC only played once; and was one - for - two against Knox if you want to say his 21 point poor shooting night on Wednesday was a flop. Now consider that! His only "off game" of the year was a game that saw him adjust and make some great plays off the ball when he couldn't hit, yet he still led all scorers!) and he has scorched the best defenders in the league night after night.

I can't argue with the logic that  puts him on the second team because there are some  great players on the list MWC4life came up with, but i sure can't argue with the logic that puts him on the first team either.

Old School-PLEASE watch him play before you put down his scoring prowess JUST because he plays system ball. If you still don't think he belongs, so be it.

[Greek Tragedy]

Good points boys.  I'll stand corrected based on the fact I haven't seen him play or that I don't know anything about him.

One of lu nut's arguments was that he was first in scoring.  That doesn't surprise me for a player playing in the system.  That was my only problem. 

I did take his comment a little out of context since the next part of his statement was "more importantly, what he did for his team."  I have no questions about his ability or importance to his team based on previous posts.  I don't know his fga/game, fg%, etc.  But, if a guy has to take 40 shots to average 30 pts (whereas no one else probably does that in the conference), then the "scoring title" is a little skewd (not tainted though), in my opinion. 

Please realize I didn't think Grotberg shouldn't be on the all-conference team, I just didn't think he should be simply because he leads the league in scoring. 

And yeah, jeffp, take away Braier's rebounding and I'll still make a case for him getting POTY or whatever they call it! lol. 

[systemfan86]

Sticking my  firmly in my cheek...

I think we should call the NCAA and ESPN2 and have Hinz's record breaking performance taken off the books - or at least have an asterix put next to it.

He played that game against Grinnell, and therefore had more rebounding opportunities than anyone would normally have against a regular team. "If a guy has to have 74 missed shots to get 36 rebounds (whereas no one else probably does that in any conference), then the 'rebounding record' is a little skewd (not tainted though), in my opinion."

[Greek Tragedy]

I agree, I'm on it, system!  I know someone who knows someone at ESPN! lol.  You guys got me. 

[hjmphelp]

Old School-
your point about how many shots he has to take to score 30 points IS valid, IMHO, as are your questions about ft% etc. I just think everything else that he does, including his leadership role, and the mental lift he provides when he streaks about 4 treys, or when he makes Braier, Beckford, Schepper, Hinz, Price, Zick, et al look silly when he drives to the basket says just as much about his talent. Good example is the game he played 34 minutes. When his arms fell off, he STILL drew 3 players to him wherever he went. That equals treytime for the other shooters on the team. ie, tons of unrecordable assists.

Anyway, it is good to see him mentioned as an all-conference performer in a conference with 15 or 20 incredible players.

Stuck in Morris for a few more minutes then off to Lake Forest to meet up with the kid and 35 of her closest Grinnell Grad friends. If I can find internet access before we head home I'll try to get something posted about the GC vs LFC game. One thought now is that I am gonna miss seeing Beckford play. I think the world of his abilities.

[titan2000]

 Jeffp:

While I agree that Grotberg is a good player, suggesting that he made Braier look "silly" is an overstatement. 

Time for you to switch to decaf. 

[hjmphelp]

Decaf ranks right up there with your cogent posts, T2000. I don't care much for either one.

Grotberg made Braier look silly on more than one play. Saw it 3 times in Grinnell. Wasn't much else to cheer about, so I do remember it. Of course, you weren't there so it didn't happen.



Good luck to everyone today...'cept Lake Forest, of course!

[titan2000]

Thanks for acknowledging my posts as "cogent".  From a Grinnellian, that is quite a compliment.   

I will go to the (#2 LU) game today and seek a better seat now that I have been validated.

[d3bbfan]

"or when he makes Braier, Beckford, Schepper, Hinz, Price, Zick, et al look silly when he drives to the basket says just as much about his talent."

Hmmm i seem to remember a game a few weeks where Grotberg got his stuff blocked 3 or 4 times when he got near Hinz.....it looked like he made himslef lood silly with his drives to the basket in that game.

[The Roop]

According to the BDN the Knox-IC game tips at 3:00 today. So we won't have to wait around after the Beloit win to see if they are in the tournament or not.