MBB: Midwest Conference

[the game]

HOW ABOUT THOSE WHITE SOX! WORLD SERIES CHAMPS! IT'S ABOUT TIME.
Monmouth and knox will challenge for te playoffs along with ripon, carroll, lawrence, LFC and  BC. Safe to say no one is exactly a lock for the top spot this season.
Maybe LU did get shafted by not being in the top 25, but they r certainly not the team of the past two years. Illinois Wesleyan will have a special year. I saw them last year and was very impressed. Surprisingly they have Illinois (the fighting Illini) on the schedule in Nov.
Anyone wanna give their MWC preseason poll and all conference team.

[titan2000]

Larry got overlooked, as usual. 

Time will tell.  If they beat UW-Oshvegas, will they then be #2 in the nation (no, that is not a prediction by me, just an observation)? I recall that is called the transitive theory of ranking.

[Early]

I would say that Lawry did get over looked.  With some key players back especially Briar.  What did they have 25 votes?  Even if they beat UWO I don't think they will get the #2 spot.  In the 2001-2002 season, we played Illinios Wesleyan when they were ranked in the top 5 (#2 or so I don't remember exactly) and beat them by 22 and were not put in the top 15.  So I doubt Lawry would jump that high.

[Early]

24 votes....I figured I could actually take the time to check it out huh? 


 

[mwc4life]

I totally agree with LU 05.  The amount of respect given to the MWC is obviously about the same as it was 5 years ago.  Say what you want to say about LU losing 3 good starters from LU's great teams the last 3 years, but they still have a great all-american returning along with another outstanding player in McGillis.  This is a "pre-season" poll.  No one has proven anything yet, but what LU has proven year in and year out for 3 years that they are among the best in the country(as i recall, LU was never that great until this certain All- American started playing ball...well he is still there).  LU also beat Ripon twice last year who was a top 25 team almost all year.  Ripon killed Hanover on a neutral court who finished 7th last year and is high in the pre-season rankings again.  I believe Hanover beat Ill. Wesylen in the playoffs and Ripon also beat Augustana on the road, which i don't think Wesylen did ( i could be wrong).  A couple years ago Ripon beat Babson and Keene State badly out in some tournament and they were amoung the top teams in the East.  Ok, i need to calm down, but it seems like there are a lot of talented teams in the midwest (mainly WI, IL, MI, MN) and most of them aren't recognized because of spots that need to be filled out east or out west. 

Someone put me in my place...cause i know it's going to happen.

PS, this was no shot at Ill. Wesylen, they are consistantly a great team and deserve whatever preseason ranking they get.  It was more of a measuring stick to the rest of the teams in the country.

[systemfan86]

Did LU get overlooked, yeah, probably. But in a preseason ranking process, losing three starters is probably not a small issue - from the looks of it, it WAS a big thing. I don't think getting worked up about it is worth the effort. The fact that LU received votes is a nod to the big fella that's still there, but until Larry proves that losing three starters isn't a problem, they're not going to move higher.

Also, we need to be careful about using that "transitive property' of games played. Grinnell beat Wartburg who was ranked most of the year. Does that mean that this  year's Grinnell team should be considered?  

[mwc4life]

systemfan86,


While you are right in that we or I should be careful with the transitive comparisons, but they shouldn't be overlooked either.  Plus, GC only beat one team in the 25.  Ripon and LU did it more then a couple times and have done it the past 3 or 4 years. 

[The Roop]

D4 doesn't have pre-season national polls because they don't really mean anything. The only rankings that are done come after the season and tournament is complete, that way the poll is never wrong. Individual conferences list their own pre-season favorites however and they are as follows:

LNCUTMV SNT-Hooterville and Bugtussle St. named as co-favorites, MANIAC College of St. Redskin**, UCWI Wisconsin A&M-Springstead and Morris Wanchuck University figures to be the top Independant this year.

**College of St. Redskin is ineligible for post season play this year as they do not have enough non-medical redshirts on the roster.

[hjmphelp]

I agree it would be nice to see an MWC team in the top 25 but it isn't the end of the world. I doubt it would take more than a 5 game run in the pre conference for someone like Larry or Rippy to crack the list; probably way more for any other MWC teams. We know the conference is stronger top to bottom than it has ever been-now its time to prove it to everyone else.
if I had a vote I would have to consider several glaring factors.
1. The MWC as a whole has a very limited and quite negative track record to date in tourney play
2.Last year, our best team got whacked in an early round using esentially the same players against the same team they almost beat the year before in the regional. Yes, that team went on to the Championship, but the game was not particularly close.
3. Larry lost 3 of the best players off that great team. No matter how great Braer is, it could be hard for an outsider to justify a high early ranking knowing that, with the loss of those three players 50%of the rebounding and 50% of the scoring (just estimates here) is gone.

If the top MWC teams are as good as we think, they will prove it during the season and earn the rankings they deserve.
Shoot! Maybe they will be able to sneak up on some people this way.

[LU 05]

My main problem is with the automatic respect certain teams or conferences automatically garner.  Lets all be honest.  The last two years, theres been Stevens Point and then theres everybody else.  Have Platteville and Whitewater played at a higher level against top teams than LU? Has Gustavus? Did John Carroll play Point tougher in the Final Four than LU did in the elite 8?  Speaking of losing people, Platteville lost their best player as well in Reistner.  The LU vs. Platteville game last year would not have been close if wasn't for him.  Despite this, they get a solid pre-season ranking? What have these teams done to earn this respect?  I guess the feeling must be, they played in Point's conference so they must be head and shoulders above the rest.  Its time for some other MWC schools besides Lawrence and Ripon to step up and knock some of these so called big time D3 programs of their high horses.  I am so sick of this almighty aura surrounding the mighty WIAC and  CCIW.  

[hjmphelp]

I think that is kinda the the point here. We have two teams with recent no-so-good-track records except (Larrys run 2 years ago), and then everybody else.

Also, take a good hard look at the top 25 and tell us (besides the ones you mention) who shouldn't be there, and why.

[GrinnellFan68]

Wouldn't it be really cool if Grinnell was ranked #3 in the poll at any point? I think that it would be awesome because they shoot lots of 3's.

Steve Kohl v. Henry Grant...who was the better player?

Cubs in '06. It's our year baby.

Back in the 70's, I ran into Pete Newell at a basketball game. He was a gentleman. I think he was the best coach of his era. Who do you guys think is the best coach today. I guess I would go with Coach K. Those American Express commercials were pretty convincing.

[LU 05]

This is d3 basketball, thus, I am not able to rate all these teams personally because I have not seen all of them play.  Frankly, I haven't even heard of some of them.  However, I have seen a number of these teams play in person and on tape.  Obviously I am not going to dispute the top 3. Oshkosh lost a starter, but they do return their best players.  WE'll see how that pans out.

I saw Puget Sound play UW-Stevens Point in the 2004 tournament.  I am not convinced on Puget Sound.  I think they end up in the top ten every year because, as we all know, they are not in the midwest.  Lawrence played Lewis and Clark, who is in their conference, last year and they were just horrible.  Far worse than any MWC team.  Puget Sound would not beat Lawrence. Period.

Gustavus at #19 lost their best player in Espenson.  And I will say this, Espenson kept Gustavus in that Tourney game last year.  I don't know who else on that team is good enough to carry them to a #19 ranking.

UW-Platteville is in the same boat.  They lose an all-american who was on the team when Lawrence beat them on their own floor.  They have size, but I think Lawrence is better.  I would be surprised if Platteville schedules LU in the near future.

I would also like to remind you Jeff that Lawrence was not one and done last year.  They went on the road to one of the toughest places to play in all of d3 basketball, and beat a team from a "superior" conference.  They got drilled by point, so what?  NO ONE was beating Stevens Point last year!    

And for all of you that think LU will be down this year, beware.  I know for a fact that in the last two recruiting classes Lawrence has taken a step up in athleticism and size.  

[hjmphelp]

LU 05 -
I think you are missing my point, sir. Larry was a great team the last few years and probably is a great team this year. I do happen to be one of those who think they might be down a bit this year, but those of you who read this board know how accurate my predictions are. Sure, I hope my Pioneers are better and can beat them. I just might be right. Oh yeah, I might be wrong too. So What? My point is that they have lost enough visible talent to be an unproven team. So what if they aren't ranked. The MWC has done little in the past - outside of Larrys run 2 years ago - to prove to the rest of d3 nation that they are as good -and consistent -  as we think they are. I am not dissing anybody in the MWC. It is just way too early. Pre season polls are just a lousy barometer of quality no matter what the level, and it seems somewhat counterproductive to get all cranked up about them. GF68 just made that point for us in the post preceeding yours. His criteria is just as valid in a pre season poll as any in my book. Well, almost any.
2 years ago GC hit the top 25 for the 1st time ever. It took a 13 game winning steak to do it. they proved themselves then immediately proved the fragility of such rankings by getting two key players hurt and losing a bunch in the last half of the season. It was great fun to see them ranked, but it meant nothing at all in the end. I was so proud of them then and still am. You SHOULD be proud of Larrys accomplishments to date, sir. Now let 'em prove you right. Shouldn't take more than 4 or 5 games IMHO.

[mwc4life]

Jeffp,

I don't think LU05 is missing the point all that much.  And as I well know we shouldn't get all hyped up about some silly preseason ranking because it's way too early, but you said it yourself.  It took Grinnell 13 games of winning to even get recognized.  That's a pretty damn big win streak.  Where would Lewis and Clark be, or Hope, or Keene State...probably in the top 25 a lot sooner.  And as much as i want to say these rankings don't mean that much, they actually kind of do.  You aren't going to gain respect early unless you beat someone ranked and until you do, you have to go on a 13 game win streak tear in order to get recongnized.  Then if you lose a game on the road to one of the "not so good" teams in our conference, you are dropped and forgotten about.  It's like the BCS, you have a better chance to move up and play for the title game if you are ranked high early.  While I personally think LU will be down this year, not nessisarily cause of lack of talent but more of lack of continuity (LU will realize just how important a 6'5 Falls, Hollenbeck was on the defensive end) it doesn't mean they don't warrent the respect that they have earned in losing that title.  Look at who the MWC has lost to in recent years (first round or not).  LU lost to UW-Point in successive years and they won the title both years.  Ripon lost to UW-Oshkosh who eventually went to the final four.  They aren't losing to some cup-cake teams.  It just so happens that the UW schools and CCIW are in our Region and time in and time out are some of the best teams in the country.  Not to mention these games are being played in their house.  Look, i know MWC has to do some more collective damage in the tourney to get the respect that we want, but i can still be tired of it.  On a neutral court, i guarentee the MWC can go toe-to-toe with just about any conference in America short of the UW schools.