MBB: Midwest Conference

[The Roop]

Until Trinity gave Point all it wanted in the Tournament last year, Lakeland was actually the closest non-conference game (12 points) that Point had had since last losing a non-conference game at Gustavus Adolphus in the 2001 Tournament. 

[GrinnellFan68]

Well it looks like the Grinnell boys have come out and had a solid start to the season. I bet Jeff P is as happy as a virgin in church. Why not?

Jeffp and other grinnelians, me and my old white ass is headed down to Grinnell this weekend for the Beloit game Friday. If Mrs. Grinnellfan68 wants to stay for saturday, we might do that, but I have to go to the hospital on Monday, so it's a touchy subject.

So put a candle in the window of Saint's Rest, jeffp...we'll be celebrating Saturday morning over waffles and coffee.

Much love to all of you, especially you Rooper.

[digs]

Did I just read JeffP and virgin in church in the same sentence?....

[systemfan86]

So jeffp, what was the response of the Aussies to the final score?

In the past we've seen anger, resentment, etc. when the margin of victory is considered 'too large'. We're the Aussies upset? Simply stunned? Amused?

There isn't a box score for the game, but you were right on the TO's. The story on the GC website says there were 52. Grotberg had 41 and made 8 of 15 from 3pt range.

It doesn't sound like much of a game. Actually glad I didn't try to make the drive over from Galena.

[ccfan69]

I was at the Ripon game on saturday vs. UW-Lax, Ripon looked horrible.  I went up there with not high expecations but couldn't believe how bad they really looked.  A Ripon parent said that they looked better sat. then fri.  They didn't really know how to handle the ball, no rebounds, passes hitting each other, balls not being watching and going out of bounds off their shoes or knees.  Ripon look horrible, they better change something soon or they won't even make the tourny.

[scottie]

Sorry to jump in so late here... My computer at home has "special needs" right now and is at the doctor's office.

Nice weekend for the Scots.  Sorry I missed the action.

Pat - I know that there was no bigger smile than your's after our playoff game.  Thanks for bringing it up.  As for MWC basketball, my earlier post was more of a thoughtful inquiry rather than a complaint.  Your response about a Monmouth inferiority complex was a knee-JERK reaction in my opinion.  Have a super day.

Scottie     

[larry_u]

I'm in the geologic testing field, I do soils testing etc.  I wanted to find a job in the madison area, but nothing good was there, just happened to fall ito the job i have now, which isn;t the most fun, but pays really quite well for a first job out of college.  

Yeah I will definately be checking out some MIAC games, I actually was a huge MIAC fan in high school, ST. Thomas back when then had the Buri brotherts were some fun teams to watch, and thier women back when they were in the final 4 every year was great.  It still was nie to crush the MIAC in the tourny last year though.  

Still hopig to make it to thaty Ripon game up in Appleton....should be one hell of a show..

[John Gleich]

"The Roop",

That's not true.  Point beat Lawrence by one on a shot with 5 seconds to go in overtime two seasons ago to go to the Final Four.  Then, Jason Kalsow hit a fade away 12 footer with .2 seconds to go in a little game we call the National Championship game that same year.  Both those games were closer than the Lakeland game last season.  And if you're going to count the GAC game in 2003, at UWSP (that's when and where it actually was played, not 2001 in Minnesota), then you have to count those Tournament games from two seasons ago.  Are they non-conference games?  Yes, technically they are.  But they're not regular season games.  Point hadn't lost a regular season non-con since Dec 29th, 1999.

The game you're talking about against Lakeland last year (UWSP's 11 pt. win), Nick Bennett had an uncharacteristicly bad shooting night (2/13 from the floor, 1/4 from 3).  I asked him about it and he just told me he was off that night, that he couldn't hit anything.  Luckily for Point, they had more weapons.

So, basically, you're statement was pretty much correct... I just had to fix a few details!  :-)

.... though, techically, UWSP's non-conference win over UW Oshkosh in the Vegas Christmas tournament in 2003-2004 was closer (63-55)... but I guess that's just semantics, huh?

[hjmphelp]

GF68-
yer gonna have to get yer waffles elsewhere, we don't serve 'em at Saints Rest. Just Cinnamon Rolls, Scones, and later in the day, cakes. You won't go hungry, but you won't eat waffles. I do look forward to finding out who the heck you are, though.

That could be quite a morning at Saints Rest. "The Roop" will be here as will the entire Henry Ford Women's basketball team along with their coach. The guy that runs the "System" Website will also be at the shop.

Look forward to seeing all of you for a great weekend of Basketball.

BTW-The Aussie team didn't show much emotion one way or another after the game, AM. I wonder if they know that the coaching decisions took em out?

[scottie]

Please note that there is a MWC Pick'em thread.  It sounds like Larry U has offered to be the commish.  Thanks Larry U.

JeffP - Will you chair the awards committee?   

[Old Fighting Scot]

Schwanman

the stats look good for the scotties but the opponents records are not anything to be proud of.  any word on how long beardo is gonna be out?  does singleton look like a player?  and how is cook adjusting to college bball?  Did terwelp bulk up or has he just realized how good he really is?  and last thing is, when is the aluminum fish game this year?

[schwanman]

Granted, the competition from last weekend wasn't what the Scots will see from Ripon, Beloit and Aurora in the next few days.

Beaird will be back for Wednesday's game. Dibble did OK in his place (10.0 ppg). Singleton seems OK now, and I think he'll be even better in the 2006 portion of the schedule. From what I can tell, he's just as accurate as Beaird and Dibble from distance, and he ranks between the two in his ability to create his own shot. If Cook makes the type of progress you'd expect, he will be a very nice player down the road.

Terwelp showed me three things I hadn't seen. Some very nice post moves, some creative finishes and the ability to hit the trey.

Nice to know the Scots can win without Beaird. Here's hoping they can win two this weekend with him.

And here's hoping we can win the Fish game (whenever it's played) without Old Fighting Scot. Maybe our new academic dean will have game.

[John Gleich]

"For Oshkosh, it was a painful lesson that life in college basketball's penthouse is strictly rental property.

I just don't understand this comment...  How is "college basketball's penthouse" rental property?  This statement says to me that TVD doesn't think that his team deserves to be where they are ranked (and I've read comments by him earlier that affirm this feeling BEFORE the Lawrence game).  I happen to agree with him.  Oshkosh really hasn't proved anything.  They are an 8 loss team from last year who took 3rd in their league

"Our guys really haven't adjusted to a team that's going to be chased," said Titans coach Ted Van Dellen. "That's a different attitude. Like I said, this is their Super Bowl right here. You get all those accolades at the beginning of the year and you've got to learn to handle it and we just didn't.

How is this Lawrence's Super Bowl?  Like cubs said earlier, Lawrence would be 3-0 in the "Super Bowl"... but something really makes me think that, at most, this is a rivalry game between two schools in close proximity.  I really doubt that, for a team that made the NCAA tourney the last two seasons, their first regular season game would be the defining game of the year. 

College basketball is an endurence event.  The season is 25 games long, from mid October until March. 

"No loss is a good loss but I'll tell you what, I think this was an eye opener for these fellas. They get all that crap early on and you think you're a little bit better than what you are and all of a sudden ..."

That's probably the first thing that TVD said that I agree with.

""That's a different attitude. Like I said, this is their Super Bowl right here."

I guess that makes Lawrence 3-0 in Super Bowl's over the past three seasons right coach?  Perhaps you should actually win something first, then begin making comments like this.

Let me play devil's advocate here for a second....
anytime you play the #2 team in the country, it is going to have a "Super Bowl" type feel to it. 

This statement has a bit of credence... UWSP dealt with it for the last however many seasons they were highly ranked.  Teams want to knock off the team on the top of the heap, so they give their best effort.  That said, I think Lawrence was better than advertised and Oshkosh was overrated.  Of course, past trends can many times be a good barometer for what will happen in the future, so I think at best, the game would be even, with no real favorite.

(I would assume if you asked Tharp or TVD, the previous two meetings weren't "Super Bowls" for Lawrence or UWO because both of them knew they had to go through UWSP.) 

The Lawrence/UWO games had just as much riding on them as this one... they were non-conference games, early in the year.  I doubt that either team was thinking about Point when they played.

This was probably the first time in three meetings where UWO was the "favorite" to win, regardless of the difference in strength of respective conferences.

Read what I wrote above about who was the favorite... I, personally, thought Lawrence was going to win, and they did.

As far as the "why don't you win something first" statement, TVD and UWO have been able to do something 4 out of 5 seasons that neither Lawrence or any other MWC team has been able to do and that is beat UWSP.

I think that the "beating UWSP" idea works for the 2001-2002 and 2002-2003 seasons, because Oshkosh won games that allowed them to go on to the NCAA's.  But for the last two seasons, Point has won the "one that counted."  In fact, they've beaten Oshkosh 6 of the last 7 times, including 4 times two seasons ago, and in two WIAC tournament semi-finals.

  And the last time I checked, UWO made it just as deep in the 2003 NCAA Tournament as Lawrence has ever made it (2004) so I guess both coaches still need "to win something first."

Oshkosh's depth into the NCAA's really have no bearing on this past UWO/LU match-up.  None of the players from those 2001 and 2002 teams are on Oshkosh's roster.  However, Lawrence DOES return players from last year (and the year before)'s NCAA team

"As far as the "why don't you win something first" statement, TVD and UWO have been able to do something 4 out of 5 seasons that neither Lawrence or any other MWC team has been able to do and that is beat UWSP"

But, using your logic and that of the UW 0 coach the wins over UWSP are somehow diminished since it could be viewed as UW 0's "Super Bowl" right?

Let's drop this whole "Super Bowl" idea.  UWO's wins in the 01-02 and 02-03 seasons were important in that they allowed UWO to make it to continue to play, to make some noise on the national scene.  But the win last year?  All that game did was allow Platteville to grab a share of the reg season conference title.  That win didn't change their seeding in the conference tournament.  It, perhaps, helped their confidence, but I'm not so sure of that... They won the first round of the conference tournament in overtime against an underachieving Eau Claire team, then lost to Stevens Point in the semi's.  Then, they dropped the first game of the year to Lawrence.  That doesn't seem like these past experiences had that much to do with what would happen this season.  If anything, like TVD said, it gave them a puffed-up impression of themself... a false confidence, making them think they were better than they really are.

For the third straight year, Lawrence beat UW 0.  For their coach to in any way imply that somehow the game meant more to LU than it did to his club is
1)  An indictment of his ability to prepare his team
2) A fairly classless comment
By the end of the year, UW 0 may well be the best team in D3 basketball.  They certainly enjoy huge advantages over a school like LU in obtaining players.  LU beating them three times in a row is a great accomplishment for Tharp and his kids no matter what spin the UW 0 coach puts on it. 

I'm not sure that you really can make that much of an argument that UWO has "huge advantages" over Lawrence in obtaining players... they may have had more SUCCESS at obtaining players, but...
Basically, the whole idea of this being anything other than a regular season non-conference game, by rivals or otherwise, is just blowing in the wind.  The games that have a lot riding on them (for something OTHER than bragging rights, bragging rights which really amount to nothing) on tournament games, either Conference Tourney, or NCAA Tourney.  And for both these teams, the game with all the marbles have been, for the last two years, their games with top ranked UWSP.  Oshkosh has lost 6 out of 7 from the Pointers, including two tourney games.  Lawrence lost by 1 in OT and by 34, in two tourney games.  THESE games are the "Super Bowls" you guys are looking for.  Both of these programs are good programs with good players and good coaches.  They have had success in the recent past in the NCAA tournament and both are arguably top 15 programs in the country (over the past few years and this year included).  The only weight that regular seasons have on these teams, apart from the apparent, false weight of a rivalry game, is the weight of a loss, especially a loss to a regional opponent (and this past game is counted as a regional game) because a loss like this could prevent them from getting a bid to the NCAA's, should they not recieve their conference's automatic bid.  That's it.

Whew... lots happened while I was gone for Thanksgiving!

[Gregory Sager]

No matter where you stand on the whole UWO/Lawrence postgame-comment contretemps, the bottom line is that it can only help what is shaping up to be a nice neighborhood rivalry in the Fox Cities.

[Dolph Stanley]

"I'm not sure that you really can make that much of an argument that UWO has "huge advantages" over Lawrence in obtaining players."

Ok, I'll try:

1)  MWC coaches are prohibited from recruiting off campus, a huge disadvantage when they cannot even speak to a player in high school after they watch him play, visit him at school or home, etc.

2)  Admission Criteria - It is simply harder to get in to Lawrence than it is to Oshkosh.  That is not a judgement of right or wrong, good or bad, simply a fact.  one of Oshkosh's top basketball players of all time decided not to attend UW Madison because he would not have been able to play his freshman year due to prop 48.  An all conference football payer this year for Oshkosh arrived as a transfer after failing out at Madison.  This is not a bad thing, each school severs a great purpose and does a great job of educating students but it is harder to get a student (and basketball player admitted to LU than Oshkosh)

3)  Cost - Lawrence costs for 2006 are listed at $35,758, Oshkosh at $14,062.  While Lawrence offers excellent financial aid options, it is still much less expensive for the average student to go to Oshkosh or another state university.  Since scholarships can not be given for athletics, this has to be viewed as an advantage in recruiting.

Thats three, public VS private financing of the programs, available majors, size of the institutions could also be used.  

This takes nothing away from the WIAC schools and what they have accomplished but for Lawrence to be able to compete for the past few years at the level of the highest programs of the best conference in the country is a great story.