MBB: Midwest Conference

[Greek Tragedy]

GC 91, KC 74

LFC 69, MC 59

LU 71, SNC 57

CC 89, RC 75

Feb. 17
Knox at Lake Forest   
Illinois College at Grinnell   
Beloit at Ripon   
Carroll at Lawrence


*Grinnell 12-3 (1-1 v Carroll, 1-0 v Ripon, 1-1 v Lake Forest, 2-0 v Lawrence)
*Carroll 11-4 (1-1 v Grinnell, 1-1 v Ripon, 0-1 v Lake Forest, 1-0 v Lawrence)

Ripon 10-5 (0-1 v Grinnell, 1-1 v Carroll, 1-1 v Lake Forest, 1-1 v Lawrence)
Lake Forest 9-6 (1-1 v Grinnell, 1-0 v Carroll, 1-1 v Ripon, 1-1 v Lawrence)
Lawrence 9-6 (0-2 v Grinnell, 0-1 v Carroll, 1-1 v Ripon, 1-1 v Lake Forest)


I think this is right, but I'm still trying to figure out how Ripon can't advance.

OK, If there is a 3-way tie among Ripon, Lake Forest and Lawrence, they'd all be tied against each other 3-3 (they were all 1-1 vs the other two).  Next is... you figure it out! lol.


a. If teams have the same win-loss record, the following criteria shall be applied in order.

In case of a tie among three or more teams after a criterion advances a team, go back to the beginning of the criteria.

1. Head to head competition. (Head to head winning percentage amongst all tied teams should be used to break the tie.) These criteria should be used to determine the order of all teams involved in the tie before proceeding to the next criteria, i.e., four (4) teams tied; Team A 3-1, Team B 3-2, Team C 2-3, Team D 1-3. Team A would advance and then we should return to the beginning of the criteria and start again with the remaining teams.

2. The record against the highest ranked common opponent.  This will continue through the conference rankings until the tie is broken.  Common opponent is defined as a team that the tied teams have played twice. (exception is if Team A has beaten a common opponent twice while Team B lost to them once or Team A has lost two games and Team B won one game) 2-0 vs. 0-1 or 0-2 vs. 1-0

3. Coin flip by Conference Commissioner

[Sea of Red]

First of all, Jeffp, I don't know who 'that girl' is.  Maybe I do, but it won't be admitted on this website .

Second, It looks like Larry is the odd man out on the totem poll, given a three-way tie between them for the last spot.  It's the losing recored against GC that seems to be pulling them down.

Good work by the Pios (of Grinnell) to get that big win that allows them to host (I think).  And good work by LFC to keep working to control where they go.

I may have visited a few to many ODAC bars tonight, but I still have much love for the MWC.

Are there scenarios where LFC doesn't get that last spot?  It would be bad for them if they coughed it up in the final game...

[systemfan86]

GC 91, KC 74

LFC 69, MC 59

LU 71, SNC 57

CC 89, RC 75

Feb. 17
Knox at Lake Forest   
Illinois College at Grinnell   
Beloit at Ripon   
Carroll at Lawrence


*Grinnell 12-3 (1-1 v Carroll, 1-0 v Ripon, 1-1 v Lake Forest, 2-0 v Lawrence)
*Carroll 11-4 (1-1 v Grinnell, 1-1 v Ripon, 0-1 v Lake Forest, 1-0 v Lawrence)

Ripon 10-5 (0-1 v Grinnell, 1-1 v Carroll, 1-1 v Lake Forest, 1-1 v Lawrence)
Lake Forest 9-6 (1-1 v Grinnell, 1-0 v Carroll, 1-1 v Ripon, 1-1 v Lawrence)
Lawrence 9-6 (0-2 v Grinnell, 0-1 v Carroll, 1-1 v Ripon, 1-1 v Lake Forest)


I think this is right, but I'm still trying to figure out how Ripon can't advance.

OK, If there is a 3-way tie among Ripon, Lake Forest and Lawrence, they'd all be tied against each other 3-3 (they were all 1-1 vs the other two).  Next is... you figure it out! lol.


a. If teams have the same win-loss record, the following criteria shall be applied in order.

In case of a tie among three or more teams after a criterion advances a team, go back to the beginning of the criteria.

1. Head to head competition. (Head to head winning percentage amongst all tied teams should be used to break the tie.) These criteria should be used to determine the order of all teams involved in the tie before proceeding to the next criteria, i.e., four (4) teams tied; Team A 3-1, Team B 3-2, Team C 2-3, Team D 1-3. Team A would advance and then we should return to the beginning of the criteria and start again with the remaining teams.

2. The record against the highest ranked common opponent.  This will continue through the conference rankings until the tie is broken.  Common opponent is defined as a team that the tied teams have played twice. (exception is if Team A has beaten a common opponent twice while Team B lost to them once or Team A has lost two games and Team B won one game) 2-0 vs. 0-1 or 0-2 vs. 1-0

3. Coin flip by Conference Commissioner

Congrats to another team (CC) invited to the table. Saturday should be exciting. The tournament host still isn't 100% certain, but I expect GC should be able to take care of business at home. IF they don't and IF Carroll beats Larry on Saturday (@Larry), then the tie breaker would go to Carroll to host; the results against Norbs would be the deciding tie breaker. So GC can't mail it in Saturday. I guess I'll be cheering for the home teams just to make it easy.

BTW, what's up with CC trying to take the high point total for the day away from GC? 

[jeffdc]

OS, thanks for the update!

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

Common opponent is defined as a team that the tied teams have played twice. (exception is if Team A has beaten a common opponent twice while Team B lost to them once or Team A has lost two games and Team B won one game) 2-0 vs. 0-1 or 0-2 vs. 1-0

If this can indeed be applied in a three-team scenario, then Lake Forest would be the odd team out (losing once to SNC, while Lawrence and Ripon both beat SNC twice).  This seems most likely.

I think Ripon has clinched.  It will come down to Lake Forest and Lawrence for the last spot.  However, in the event of a three way tie, the seeding would still be up for grabs.  If Ripon loses to Beloit and Lawrence wins, LarryU gets the #3.

Ripon is in and in the #3 unless the end up tied with Larry, in which case they would get the #4.

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

I forgot to factor in the Lawrence-Carroll game.

If Larry loses, they are out, no matter what Lake Forest does.

If Larry wins, they are in, no matter what Lake Forest does.

Lake Forest can only get in with a win and a Larry loss.

Ripon has the #3 unless they lose and Larry wins.

[systemfan86]

Given all that has been posted on this, this isn't a surprise, but it's still nice to see it 'in print' on this site http://www.d3hoops.com/dailydose/2007/02/14/ncaa-regional-rankings-week-2/ .

A nice bit of recognition for GC.

Here's hoping that GC can get to (at least) 20 wins this season! 

[systemfan86]

I forgot to factor in the Lawrence-Carroll game.

If Larry loses, they are out, no matter what Lake Forest does.

If Larry wins, they are in, no matter what Lake Forest does.

Lake Forest can only get in with a win and a Larry loss.

Ripon has the #3 unless they lose and Larry wins.

That doesn't seem right to me.

If Larry and LFC end in a tie, the first tie breaker is head to head, and the two teams split. The second tie breaker goes to record against common opponent starting with the top of the conference. Assuming GC beats IC, LFC wins that tie breaker since they split with GC and Larry was swept by GC.

Given that, Larry has to beat CC, and hope that LFC loses at home to Knox. It would seem that the odds are very much against Larry at this point.

Ripon seems pretty safe too since BC hasn't won a conference road game this year. 

[Early]

BTW, what's up with CC trying to take the high point total for the day away from GC? 

Well that has a lot to do with who CC played.  For some reason, Ripon is still struggling with the defensive concept.

Vent a little frustration out there.

[lake forest]

Great win by the Foresters last night.  I will post with class and wish the scots the best of luck next year....

[systemfan86]

My goodness! I just looked at the box score from the RC-CC game last night. What happened in the first half?! Carroll went into halftime with a very Grinnell-like 61 points! They made 70% of their shots in the half including half of their 18 treys. WOW.

Ripon looks like they shot well (55%) in the half, but they still went to the half down by 22!

I'd love to hear a report from someone who saw the game. 

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

I forgot to factor in the Lawrence-Carroll game.

If Larry loses, they are out, no matter what Lake Forest does.

If Larry wins, they are in, no matter what Lake Forest does.

Lake Forest can only get in with a win and a Larry loss.

Ripon has the #3 unless they lose and Larry wins.

That doesn't seem right to me.

If Larry and LFC end in a tie, the first tie breaker is head to head, and the two teams split. The second tie breaker goes to record against common opponent starting with the top of the conference. Assuming GC beats IC, LFC wins that tie breaker since they split with GC and Larry was swept by GC.

Given that, Larry has to beat CC, and hope that LFC loses at home to Knox. It would seem that the odds are very much against Larry at this point.

Ripon seems pretty safe too since BC hasn't won a conference road game this year. 

The league does not count opponents a team has only played once unless they could not win the tiebreaker if they won a second time.  For example, the LFC split against Grinnell doesn't count as a better record because they give Ripon the benefit of the doubt.  If Ripon were to play Grinnell again, they might win and thus tie LFC.  So that throw out Grinnell as a common opponent.  Next up would be Carroll and if both teams lose their next game, Larry would be 0-2 against Carroll and LFC would be 1-0, so even if LFC played Carroll again and lost, they would still win the tiebreaker.  So if Larry loses, no matter what happens with LFC, Larry is out.

If Larry beats CC, Carroll also becomes inelligible for a tiebreaker and they move on to Ripon, with whom both teams split.  They can't count each other, so they move then to St. Norbert.  Lawrence is 2-0 against SNC and LFC is 0-1, thus even if they were to play St Norbert again and win, they would still lose the tiebreaker and thus Larry would still move on.  Larry moves on with a win, no matter what LFC does.


*At least that is the way I read the tiebreaker procedure as quoted by OS further back on the board.  If that was incorrect, I take no responsibility.

[systemfan86]

The league does not count opponents a team has only played once unless they could not win the tiebreaker if they won a second time.  For example, the LFC split against Grinnell doesn't count as a better record because they give Ripon the benefit of the doubt.  If Ripon were to play Grinnell again, they might win and thus tie LFC.  So that throw out Grinnell as a common opponent.  Next up would be Carroll and if both teams lose their next game, Larry would be 0-2 against Carroll and LFC would be 1-0, so even if LFC played Carroll again and lost, they would still win the tiebreaker.  So if Larry loses, no matter what happens with LFC, Larry is out.

If Larry beats CC, Carroll also becomes inelligible for a tiebreaker and they move on to Ripon, with whom both teams split.  They can't count each other, so they move then to St. Norbert.  Lawrence is 2-0 against SNC and LFC is 0-1, thus even if they were to play St Norbert again and win, they would still lose the tiebreaker and thus Larry would still move on.  Larry moves on with a win, no matter what LFC does.


*At least that is the way I read the tiebreaker procedure as quoted by OS further back on the board.  If that was incorrect, I take no responsibility.

I think what I was missing was your scenario involves a three way tie. You appear to be correct - who can be too sure  - in that scenario, but if RC, LU, and LFC all win, then RC is in by virtue of a better record, and LFC is in by the tiebreaker I described.

[systemfan86]

So what we have is a situation where LFC plays Knox at 1:00 and LU and RC don't play until 4:00.

If LFC wins, they pull for RC to win because they own the tiebreaker in a two way tie, and/or they pull for a LU loss.

In that situation (LFC win), at 4:00 PM, Larry has to win and watch the scoreboard for a RC loss; I think that's the perfect storm of cheering for Larry fans.

IF LFC loses, they need LU to lose, and Larry knows that they have to win.

My head hurts. 

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

You're right.  I got one of the scores messed up.  Let me try and rest the scenarios:

Three-way tie at 10-6: Lawrence is #3, Ripon is #4 (due to a Ripon loss to Beloit)

The same thing would apply if Ripon and Lawrence tied at 10-6

Ripon and Lake Forest tied at 10-6: Ripon is #3, Lake Forest is #4 (due to a LFC loss to SNC)

Lake Forest and Lawrence tied at 10-6: LFC is #4 (due to a superior record vs GC)

Lake Forest and Lawrence tied at 9-7: LFC is #4 (due to a superior record vs GC)


So yes, Lawrence has to win and have either LFC lose or Ripon lose to get in.

So long as Ripon wins, Lawrence is out, unless Lawrence wins and LFC loses.