MBB: Midwest Conference

[systemfan86]

I wonder if any of the ire displayed towards him would be there if the final margin was 10 or 20 points rather than 39?

You think? I thought that was rather clear.

OK, but if his effort is the same either way, why is he 'punished' (as it were) for the poor shooting of the other team? Indeed, if his own team had shot their free throws poorly, the game would have been closer and less people complain. If NC shoots 10% better, they score 19 more points (7 FG, 1 3Pt, and 2 FT) and its a 20 point game.

I suppose it's not a matter of it whether the analysis would have been different but whether as many people would have noticed.

[systemfan86]

On a more positive note, young Mr Gillespie's performance raise the question of who the best newbies in the league are.

I have seen the games, so I'm not qualified to comment. From a numbers standpoint, Tanney of MC shows up on the points and rebounding top 15, Knisley of GC is showing up on blocks and steals (an odd combination), and Kenny of BC shows up on the boards and assists. Can't tell on the LU and IC players since they don't list class/year.

Any observations?

[Greek Tragedy]

systemfan86,

Again, I think you're missing the point (I think)...Little Dave averages 23.4 minutes a game.  He played 38 in that game.  So, if he played his regular minutes, no matter what the score was, he probably wouldn't have gotten the record.  He played those minutes for the sole reason to break the record...I think that's what hoopla is about.

[Gregory Sager]

Mr. Sager,

Championship play vs. Consolation play.

Gerald Reece (William Penn) still holds the single game scoring record for the D3 Tournament at 49. Since it came against "The Park" in the consolation game of the 81 regional do you think it needs an *by it. Or should there be two records until 49 is finally broken ??

Tremendous performance in any event but most of those consolation games involved going through the motions for 36 minutes, then taking it seriously in the last 4 if you had a chance to win.

As Chuck said, Ben Strong broke Gerald Reece's record last season. But I never thought that Reece's record deserved an asterisk. Why should it? It was an official game.

And I strenuously disagree with your assertion that consolation games involve teams "going through the motions" -- I've sat through several of them, and I've never noticed any letup by either team involved. The vast majority of basketball players have far too much pride to ever just phone it in, no matter what the stakes. In fact, sometimes the teams play harder, because the seniors know for a fact that it's the last time that they'll ever put on a uni for their school.

[Amos Lawrence]

LU 73 Nova Southeastern 60...LU trailed 26-32 at the half down as many as 12 at one point, but outscore NSU 47-28 in the second. Kroeger goes for 31, Rosenblatt 10, Dekker 11. It appears solid shooting and free throws wins the game. Any other scores around the MWC?

[systemfan86]

LU 73 Nova Southeastern 60...LU trailed 26-32 at the half down as many as 12 at one point, but outscore NSU 47-28 in the second. Kroeger goes for 31, Rosenblatt 10, Dekker 11. It appears solid shooting and free throws wins the game. Any other scores around the MWC?

Congrats to Larry and Norbs who both beat DII teams last night. A little MWC notice on the D3Hoop main page. 

[systemfan86]

systemfan86,

Again, I think you're missing the point (I think)...Little Dave averages 23.4 minutes a game.  He played 38 in that game.  So, if he played his regular minutes, no matter what the score was, he probably wouldn't have gotten the record.  He played those minutes for the sole reason to break the record...I think that's what hoopla is about.

No, I get that. I do.

My point is that the score of the game seems to matter. Had it been closer, then his being in the game for 38 minutes is considered 'more appropriate'. But he doesn't control the margin in that he doesn't control the shooting percentage of NC or the free throw percentage of his own team. Heck, he scored 22 himself; had he not scored at all and it was a 17 point game, we might not be talking as much about it. Had he come out of the game right after breaking the record, we might not be talking as much about it. But it wouldn't have changed the 'planned' nature of the assault on the record book.

[schwanman]

Systemfan,

I had no problem with the 38 minutes. Yes, we would be talking about this less if 1) he had come out with nine minutes to go after breaking the record, which would roughly be the equivalent of sitting out the "fourth quarter" and 2) if the game had been closer, meaning his presence on the floor was more necessary.

However, we have to deal with reality, not hypothesis. He had the record and the game was completely decided. That's a pretty big breach of basketball etiquette.

Grinnell has thought outside the box when creating the system, and good for them. That "experiment" has turned into a solid success. But this latest "experiment" about intentionally setting records crossed a line and is understandably getting its fair share of criticism. 

[systemfan86]

Systemfan,

I had no problem with the 38 minutes. Yes, we would be talking about this less if 1) he had come out with nine minutes to go after breaking the record, which would roughly be the equivalent of sitting out the "fourth quarter" and 2) if the game had been closer, meaning his presence on the floor was more necessary.

However, we have to deal with reality, not hypothesis. He had the record and the game was completely decided. That's a pretty big breach of basketball etiquette.

Grinnell has thought outside the box when creating the system, and good for them. That "experiment" has turned into a solid success. But this latest "experiment" about intentionally setting records crossed a line and is understandably getting its fair share of criticism. 

I agree. I've stated that as a GC fan, I find it hard to celebrate this record in part because of the situation surrounding it. I've been in situations where an opposing coach is 'practicing' during a game because my team was outmatched, and I must admit that I was pretty angry about it.

What I'm trying to point out is that collectively, we define arbitrary parameters that determine how much criticism it receives. Dave A's effort and the game plan would have been essentially the same if NC shoots 10% better or 10% worse, but the result of their shooting effectiveness has an impact on our perception of the situation because if they shoot better, it's a closer game and there is less criticism.

I'm not advocating more or less criticism. I understand why it is happening. I guess I just wish it was more driven by the perceived motivation and less by the outcome of the score.   

[d3bbfan]

On a more positive note, young Mr Gillespie's performance raise the question of who the best newbies in the league are.

Kenny of BC shows up on the boards and assists. Any observations?

Gillespie is the real deal...he is as good as advertised. Its a shame for Ripon that the rest of the team hasn't decided to match the effort of the 1st yr. What is wrong with Wise. When he was a frosh and soph I thought he'd be a potential 1st teamer. He definatly has the physical talent.

I find it funny that one of the smallest guys in the league is leading his team in rebounding. Its about desire. If Kenny had been 6'1" or 2" he for sure wouldnt be playing at this level. He just needs to shoot better. But ive seen him shoot, and he can stroke it. Just needs to get his confidence level up. Like Gillespi has. No lacking in confidence for that young man. He sure is fun to watch.

[Early]

The only game I saw Ripon play was against a bad knox team.  Ripon played with hardly any intensity.  I think that was the most disappointing thing I took from their team.  Gillespie scored 27 second half points with foul trouble...he really competes.   He is special no doubt about it.  Paul Wise needs to wake up and start playing the type of ball we know he can play.  He catches the ball and turns his back to the defender giving the defense no offensive threat. 

Good to hear from RR34!

I haven't seen a game this year, so I am not sure of the issues at hand for RC.  I was shocked and disapointed to see a loss to Knox, and I'm sure the Redhawks were feeling the same way.  Reminded me of the loss we took to Knox my freshman year down there.  We just didn't have anything from the start of the game through the finish.....however we lost big in that game and the "scrubs" (me) were able to get some PT. 

But  if you say there was no intensity, I belive it.  We always talk about that.  They lost so much last year, in scoring and more importantly right now...leadership.  The upper classmen must take control and realize it is their team now.  As for Wise, again I have not seen a game, just the box scores.   He does have the talent and potential to be special that is for sure. 

Early - what happened to squaring your body and ripping through the defenders arms...slaps or not.  Basically I just want this team to play with a sense of passion and intensity

That's an important concept.  They need to be a threat at all times with the basketball, whether they actually are going to atack or not is irrevelant.  If you square up and face the basket, the defender will think you are a threat.

[The Roop]

Maybe they just need an attitude adjustment. They weren't really picked to do anything this year and if they've adopted that attitude they won't. Sometimes you need to pretend in order to contend.

Posture on the court is important but squaring up only gains peoples attention. I remember this one guy, Kareem something or other, that employed a thing called a hook shot and could hit from virtually anywhere on the floor because it caught defenders off guard. Only had it blocked once I'm told.

[Early]

Yes that is correct The Roop.  However, that one guy Kareem, who ever that is  , most likely was in the post for the hook shot, not catching the ball around the 3pt. arc. 

Posture on the court is important but squaring up only gains peoples attention.

That is just what I was thinking....if you get the defenders attention that helps.

Sometimes you need to pretend in order to contend.

I also like this comment.

[LU_nut]

Nice wins by LU in Florida, particularly the first victory over a solid D2 team.  It is interesting to see how well Kroeger does when teams are not familar with LU and key on him.    His shooting makes me wonder what he would average if he was at Grinnell.   He has been a 50% shooter from 3 point land two of the three years he has been at LU.   Grotberg(I am a fan and think he is very talented) has always shot well under 40%.    To me, it is very hard to translate Grinnell stats and try and determine who should be All Conference, etc.

It has been a few weeks since the debate, but think I will weigh in on the Grinnell assist issue.   I am not a fan of purposely going after records, especially when a team is over-matched.   Sounds very counter to the concept of college athletics, especially D3.  I give the coach credit for being open about what they were doing instead of denying it.   His approach to the game is obviously pretty unique in a lot of ways.   Lastly, no one has raised it, but I can almost guarantee that the number of "assists" would have been very different if the game was played away instead of home.   Crediting an Assist is a very subjective thing.   My guess is the scorekeeper was a part of the process.  At a minimum, I am sure he is always very generous in his counting for the home team.

Just my view.

[LU_nut]

Think I will mix a few facts with my earlier opinion........  In the previous two seasons, Grinnell has played an equal number of home and away games.   The coaches son has had 13 double digit assist games at home versus 5 on the road.     Looks like they have a very friendly score-keeper in Darby......

The assist record is very dubious.   BTW, despite that view, the kid is a very good player who is strong around the basket......and shooting well this year.