MBB: Midwest Conference

[larry_u]

anyone else watching any games??

Looking for a LU/LFC and GC/ SNC scores specifically...

[Greek Tragedy]

According to MWC website, Carroll won and by the live stats, Grinnell is losing 107-93 with 5 minutes to go, about.  Carroll won 85-77 or so, no live stats for LU.

[The Roop]

SNC 123 GC 106 final

[wc2viking]

LU score was up 82-69 with 36 seconds left so I hope they held on for the win.  I hate to leave a sporting event early, but the 1.5 year old was ready to go. 

[wc2viking]

It looks like the race for MWC tournament spots is going to be tight.  I assume the first tiebreaker is head-to-head competition.  Anyone know the tiebreakers beyond that?

[The Roop]

Basically it comes down to which teams are tied and it usually involves an abacus in the event of a 3 way tie. Because of the unbalanced schedule, some head to head games can actually get tossed in favor of another common opponent. It's very difficult to explain and quite confusing until you know what the likely ties may be. The MWC website usually posts the possible scenarios near the last weekend. 

[larry_u]

The first tie-breaker is head to head.  Next after that it is record versus highest ranked common opponent.  An example would be if Lawrence finished first, Carroll and Grinnell tied for second and someone else in 4th.  They would compare records against the highest seeded team first, so Carroll wold have the advantage because they have at least one win against LU, while Grinnell went 0-2 so Carroll would be seeded second, and Grinnell third.  If the records against LU had been equal, or if they had played a different number of games, say Carroll has played LU twice and Grinell only once, they would move on to the next lower team in the standings and continue.  If after all that they are still tied, then I'm not sure what the third tie-breaker would be, but i'm usre it will be listed in the MWC weekly release the last week of the regular season.

[larry_u]

Also, after looking at the MWC website, congrats to LU, the first team to officially punch their ticket to the MWC tournament.  Now they just have to hold off Carroll and host it at Alex....

[Greek Tragedy]

Carroll has to win out and LU has to lose another game aside from the Carroll game (right?)...that's not going to happen.  MWC will be at The Alex, IMO.

Lawrence *  11-1 
Carroll 10-3
St. Norbert  8-5 
Grinnell 7-5

Lake Forest  6-6
Knox 6-7 
Illinois College  5-8 
Monmouth 4-8 
Ripon 4-9 
Beloit 2-11

[Gregory Sager]

Larry_U made an interesting point, though.  Why doesn't GC's system work in the playoffs?  They're 0 for whatever in the NCAA tournament.  It seems like teams that have never seen the system would be the easiest victims, but it hasn't worked out.  Strange.

Not really. The Arseneault system allows Grinnell to do well against its peers. But it's no cure-all when it comes to neutralizing teams that play at a higher level than what Grinnell typically sees in the MWC. Teams that are significantly more talented and have at least a modicum of discipline -- in other words, the sorts of teams that the Pioneers are bound to face if they manage to make it to the big dance -- are quite capable of taking what the system gives them and using it to run away and hide against Grinnell. That's what happened in 1996 (Wheaton beat Grinnell by 14, in spite of the fact that the Wheaties lost their best forward to a torn ACL in the middle of the game) and in 2001 (Illinois Wesleyan beat Grinnell by 41), the only two trips that Grinnell's ever made to the tourney. Similarly, during the 2006-07 regular season I watched a UW-Whitewater team that went on to finish a relatively lackluster (for UWW) fourth in the WIAC absolutely demolish a Grinnell team that went on to win the MWC, 126-90 -- and UWW coach Pat Miller had all of his starters on the bench for good with six minutes left to play in that game.

The key is to have time to prepare to play Grinnell, so that the coaches can devise a proper game strategy and the players can see Grinnell tape and practice against the system. Also, the five or six days off between Selection Sunday and the night that a team faces Grinnell in the tournament gives that opponent fresh legs. Where I think that Grinnell would be in a favorable situation is in a Saturday night second-round game, in which the opponent has neither the prep time nor the legs to be ready for the Pioneers. Getting to the second round, however ... that's the trick. Grinnell's gonna have to have a dominant regular season in order to make that happen, thus setting itself up for a high seed and an easier first-round opponent than '96 Wheaton or '01 Illinois Wesleyan proved to be, in order to make that second-round advantage work for the Pioneers.

[TeeDub]

GS,

I think this post is right on the money.  Having some background with the System at the University of Redlands, I think your points show a real understanding of what is going on in System related games.  The point below, however, is applicable to most teams, not just System teams...

Teams that are significantly more talented and have at least a modicum of discipline   (emphasis added) -- in other words, the sorts of teams that the Pioneers are bound to face if they manage to make it to the big dance -- are quite capable of taking what the system gives them and using it to run away and hide against Grinnell.

The only thing I would ask is the potential impact on the 2nd round game for a team that beats Grinnell in the opener.  Do they suffer for having played Grinnell and then bouncing back to play a more traditional system?  At Redlands a couple years ago, almost every team that beat Redlands during league play, lost their next game out...for a variety of reasons I guess.  Some say the game wore them out, but I don't think that is it so much.  I think it resulted from some players, who now think they are scorers because of the opportunities a System game provided them, go out and take shots away from those who should really have them.

[LU_nut]

A few rambling thoughts:

There were some surprising games Friday night.   My pickems were a mess.

I am surprised that Braier was left off the all decade team...not even HM.  Obviously I have not seen all the players and some of them I see listed had more offense, but I have seen enough D3 ball the last 6 years to get a pretty good sense he has been one of the top 20-25 players over the past 10 years in D3.   Becker might also warrant being on the list.  He was significantly better than the kid Daukaus(sp?) from Ill Wes that seems to get a lot of love for reasons I do not understand.

LU has a chance to make a run in the tourney this year.   They are playing a more up-temp game than they did last year and the three guard offense fits their talent very well.

What is the latest on Chamberlin at Grinnell?  It is obvious that they miss him.   If they are the fourth seed in the MWC tourney and he is healthy, he will make things interesting.   He made a real difference last year in the amount of layups Grinnell gave up with their pressing defense.

Congrats Roop on a big Beloit victory.  I must say the Bucs and Knox have both won more games than I thought they would by a long shot.

NUT

[The Roop]

Although I'm not GS, I can say this.......... The Redlands "system" and the Grinnell "system" are not exactly the same thing. This was told to me by someone that has faced both. While there is a slight "day after Grinnell" fatigue factor within the MWC, it's really not that conclusive. Grinnell, being the furthermost outpost of the realm, usually means a long road trip to next game.

It's not unusual to play in Grinnell on a Friday night, then stop at a hotel around 1 or 2 AM before you get to your next game.

[iwumichigander]

If Arseneault would make a few adjustments to the "system" from year-to-year, he might be able to get more out of his players.

...Why doesn't GC's system work in the playoffs?  They're 0 for whatever in the NCAA tournament.  It seems like teams that have never seen the system would be the easiest victims, but it hasn't worked out.  Strange.

The system won't work or win in the NCAA tournament until Areseneault makes a "few adjustments" on these numbers:
Grinnell's NCAA Rankings thru Games 2/3/08
Category                                                         Rank/Actual
Scoring Defense (387 ranked)                          386 98.4
Field-Goal Percentage (387 ranked)                 347 40.2
Field-Goal Percentage Defense (387 ranked)   386 61.9
Rebound Margin (387 ranked)                          375 -9.0
Personal Fouls Per Game (387 ranked)            387 27.7

Being #1 in 3-pt FG/game and #2 in Scoring Offense doesn't win NCAA tournament games - just press clippings. Teams that go far in the NCAA tournament achieve success by being able to defend and rebound.

I wonder what team holds the NCAA record for the most dead last finishes in the 16 team ranked categories?

[The Roop]

You're not suggesting that Coach A forgets to stir his mashed potatoes halfway through the microwave dinner are you ??