MBB: Midwest Conference

[larry_u]

Lastly, after seeing the basketball played over the weekend the MWC has a long ways to go before we will see one of our teams in the finals. 

I think that there are only about a dozen teams (on average) at any level that can get to their respective Final Fours. When you go beyond that there is usually a noticeable fall off. Granted the MWC has never had a team make it but one good recruiting year may be enough to put one of the teams over the top in the near future.

Winning at the national level needs to be a priority for the MWC before it will actually happen. The way it is now seems to be "Win the conference" and everybody is happy.

IMO the 2006 Larry team was a legitimate threat for the finals.  Unfortunately, they met up with IWU before then.

I'd like to think the 2004 Lawrence team was too considering they lost by 1 in OT to the National Champs in the elite 8 and were winning most of the game.

[Greek Tragedy]

The way it is now seems to be "Win the conference" and everybody is happy.

You gotta crawl before you can walk.  The majority of the teams in the MWC just hope to make the Top 4 to get into the conference tournament.  A team like Lawrence and even Carroll, IMO, are the only teams that hope for more than a conference championship and tournament title.  Grinnell has won a regular season championship, but their next goal is to do well in the NCAAs, not jump to Win It All.  It's the reality and you can't put your goals too high or else you'll never reach them.  That's what I think.

I think 2006's Lawrence team was better than 2004's team.  Yes, the 2004 team lost to Point by 1 in the Elite 8, but I'm still taking the 2006 team that lost to IWU that was on a roll before losing in the Final Four. 

[larry_u]

The way it is now seems to be "Win the conference" and everybody is happy.

I think 2006's Lawrence team was better than 2004's team.  Yes, the 2004 team lost to Point by 1 in the Elite 8, but I'm still taking the 2006 team that lost to IWU that was on a roll before losing in the Final Four. 

So would you say that that 2006 IWU team was better than the 2004 Point team??  I guess we can get into a whole bunch of discussion on who played better when, etc, but I think LU had they beaten point in 04, which don't forget they were one competent official away from blowing Relaford's half court bomb off at the end of the first half they was obviously after the horn, would have also had an easy time with John Carroll and would have been in a battle with Williams for the title. 

Lawrence may have had a better team in 2006, but I think they were closer as a team to winning it in 2004.  It all would have depended on the tournament matchups from there on.  Grantewd I think LU could have handled Puget Sound in the elite 8 at LU if they had gotten past IWU too, but I still think the 2004 team had the opportunity to do more damage if you took away the post-buzzer half court bomb, or to try to keep Old School off my back as much as possible, Bennett's miracle turnarond 30ft three at the end of regulation to sent it into OT.

Just my opnion...I know others will differ..

[Greek Tragedy]

I think 2006's Lawrence team was better than 2004's team.  Yes, the 2004 team lost to Point by 1 in the Elite 8, but I'm still taking the 2006 team that lost to IWU that was on a roll before losing in the Final Four. 

Lawrence may have had a better team in 2006, but I think they were closer as a team to winning it in 2004. 

We think Lawrence may have had the better team in 2006.  

[John Gleich]

The way it is now seems to be "Win the conference" and everybody is happy.

I think 2006's Lawrence team was better than 2004's team.  Yes, the 2004 team lost to Point by 1 in the Elite 8, but I'm still taking the 2006 team that lost to IWU that was on a roll before losing in the Final Four. 

So would you say that that 2006 IWU team was better than the 2004 Point team??  I guess we can get into a whole bunch of discussion on who played better when, etc, but I think LU had they beaten point in 04, which don't forget they were one competent official away from blowing Relaford's half court bomb off at the end of the first half they was obviously after the horn, would have also had an easy time with John Carroll and would have been in a battle with Williams for the title. 

Lawrence may have had a better team in 2006, but I think they were closer as a team to winning it in 2004.  It all would have depended on the tournament matchups from there on.  Grantewd I think LU could have handled Puget Sound in the elite 8 at LU if they had gotten past IWU too, but I still think the 2004 team had the opportunity to do more damage if you took away the post-buzzer half court bomb, or to try to keep Old School off my back as much as possible, Bennett's miracle turnarond 30ft three at the end of regulation to sent it into OT.

Just my opnion...I know others will differ..

I don't think you can really compare teams in this way... for one, many of the major players in 2006 were the same players in 2004 for LU, and though you can make the argument that they were better because they were older, it still doesn't follow 100%. 

Look at Williams from 03 to 04.  They won the National Championship in 03 but lost in 04.  In 03 Gustavus Adolphus beat Point but lost to them in 04.  In 06 Va Wesleyan won the Nat Championship but lost in the 07 title game.  It doesn't mean that one was necessarily better than another or not, because basketball is such a game of inches. 

You cite Relerford's shot... and you can blame the refs, but why not blame the players who let him get a wide open look from half court?  Krull showed the night before that the Pointer's have got range, hitting a half court shot against UPS. 

And you have to admit that Lawrence played absolutely out of their mind in that game at UPS against SP in '04.  They hit 8/10 3's in the first half, 15/23 for the game.  Hollinbeck and MacGillis came off the bench for 40 points on 10/15 shooting from 3.

And just because Larry U's team may have been better in 2006 than 2004, it doesn't mean that they necessarily played better, in every game.  Case in point, the out-of-their-mind game against UWSP.

[John Gleich]

Lastly, after seeing the basketball played over the weekend the MWC has a long ways to go before we will see one of our teams in the finals. 

I think that there are only about a dozen teams (on average) at any level that can get to their respective Final Fours. When you go beyond that there is usually a noticeable fall off. Granted the MWC has never had a team make it but one good recruiting year may be enough to put one of the teams over the top in the near future.

Winning at the national level needs to be a priority for the MWC before it will actually happen. The way it is now seems to be "Win the conference" and everybody is happy.

IMO the 2006 Larry team was a legitimate threat for the finals.  Unfortunately, they met up with IWU before then.

I'd like to think the 2004 Lawrence team was too considering they lost by 1 in OT to the National Champs in the elite 8 and were winning most of the game.

Actually, check out the box score HERE.  Unless by "most of the game" you mean more than half the game... though that isn't clear either.  LU led for the first 4:40, but never by more than 5, and then Point tied it and took the lead, which bounced back and forth for the next 5 minutes.  LU did take a 10 point lead and led for the last 10:30 of the first half, but they only led by 1 at the half.

In the second half, Point took the lead back on the first possession, and the score bounced back and fourth throughout the second half.  In OT, Point took the lead, and then the lead changed hands 5 other times before Maus's jumper (for a total of 7 lead changes in the OT).  I'll give you that LU led for most of the first half, but it was only a 1 point lead, and they didn't even keep that for long.

And for as much as LU led during the game... it's always the score at the end of the game that matters.  Look to the 06 game, where they led for 33 straight minutes after an initial bucket by IWU's Cory Jones.  But it was the final that really mattered.

[Gregory Sager]

I don't think you can really compare teams in this way... for one, many of the major players in 2006 were the same players in 2004 for LU, and though you can make the argument that they were better because they were older, it still doesn't follow 100%. 

Look at Williams from 03 to 04.  They won the National Championship in 03 but lost in 04.  In 03 Gustavus Adolphus beat Point but lost to them in 04.  In 06 Va Wesleyan won the Nat Championship but lost in the 07 title game.

The exact same phenomenon happened this season. Amherst won the national championship last season, but lost in this season's title game to Wash U.

[The Roop]

Rumor has it that the Bucs could start 5 freshmen next season. I think Andy Horton and Patrick Kenny, at the very least, might have something to say about that but it certainly sounds like a good recruiting year for Americas Team: The Beloit College.

[LU_nut]

Roop

Good for Beloit.  I would like to see them recapture some of the tradition, though hopefully not at LU's expense.

Regarding the 04 and 06 LU debate.......from someone who saw 20 plus games each year, I have got to say they are very close.    Everyone who has weighed in has had valid points.   Clearly, the 06 team had the superior record.   I always thought the best two players on both teams were Braier and Kyle McGillis.    Clearly those guys were better as seniors than as Sophomores.   The 06 team also had Kroeger off the bench scoring big points.    While the 06 team was darn good and had a good bench with Kroeger, Klekamp, Schoenburg, Hurley(part of the year), and Kadison, the 04 team had the best bench I have seen in my 10 years of watching MWC basketball.   You had Holinbech, Kyle McGillis, and Chris McGillis all off the bench, all of them all conference players at least once.  You also had Aaron Sorenson, a terriffic shooter.  Heck, Chris McGillis was the teams leading scorer.   What made that team so good was they would sub the two McGillis' in about 5 minutes into the game and take out Falls and Olson(two slower guys) and it would be lights out for the other team as they would apply Defensive pressure.   I am not saying I think the 04 team was better, but possibly the equal of the 06 team that went 25-0.    The 06 team was stronger in the middle in my view.
The O4 team won some big games like beating Oshkosh soundly as well as at Beuna Vista........and both Carroll and Ripon were good that year, especially Ripon who still had Becker.

I have gone on record as saying the Point team that went back to back was the best D3 team I have seen.   LU did play them very, very close in 04, but did play very, very well in that game.  By the way, the reason they did not guard the half court shot at the end of the half( a huge play) was the coaches had the players fall back.   There was less than a second and I am sure the coaches thought you could not legally catch and shoot in that time.   

By the way, the Ill Wes. team that beat LU in a game that LU led most of the way, was in my view cliearly the equal talent-wise of the Point teams.   What I never understood was how that team managed to lose 6 games.  I do not buy into the CCIW being better than the WIAC.   It was not that year in my view.   The Titans were either poorly coached at times or just plain mentally weak at times.  That was a very, very talented team that got it together for the post season run.........until they decided to revert to inconsistent form in the finals.

Anyway, those are my views......not facts, just views.

By the way, both those LU teams were clearly final 4 caliber(whoever made that statement is off-base in my view).  In fact I would say LU was 4 out of the last 5 years.   If they had held on against Wheaton this year(simple as a missed FT at the end), I feel strongly they would have made the final 8.   The other three teams all were strong enough, they just meet national champs twice(once on their court) and met the most talented the other year.   All three of those years they had big wins against top 15 teams like Oshkosh, St. Thomas, Carroll, Gustavas and BV, several of them on the road.   Also, Carroll last year had a great run.   I would probably argue that the Ripon team Becker's senior year(before the tourney was expanded) could have made a very nice run as well.   LU took OT to beat them in the conference tourney at home.   I think the MWC has been unusually good at the top the last 5 years and has produced several teams that were final 4/8 caliber.    The conference as a whole is clearly not as strong in the middle and the bottom as the CCIW and the WIAC.

Already looking forward to next year.  LU and Grinnell have got a lot back.   Hopefully some of the other teams have strong recruiting years and we have a strong conference.   There are some new coaches who I am sure are really motivated to recruit.

LU Nut

[Titan Q]

By the way, the Ill Wes. team that beat LU in a game that LU led most of the way, was in my view cliearly the equal talent-wise of the Point teams.   What I never understood was how that team managed to lose 6 games.  I do not buy into the CCIW being better than the WIAC.   It was not that year in my view.   The Titans were either poorly coached at times or just plain mentally weak at times.  That was a very, very talented team that got it together for the post season run.........until they decided to revert to inconsistent form in the finals.

Anyway, those are my views......not facts, just views.

Nut, IWU lost by 3 to Virginia Wesleyan...the eventual national champ.  And then IWU beat Amherst (and the nucleus that went on to win the title last year) in the 3rd place game.  I wouldn't call that "inconsistent" - they just lost to a very good team in a close game.

And yes, the CCIW was better than the WIAC in 2005-06...just as the UAA was better than the WIAC this year. 

[old_hooper]

Q, just for reference in the consolation game against Amherst, Coach Hixon started all his seniors and let them play about 5 minutes.  They were without the 3 starters at that time.  IW jumped up by 10 points very quickly.  No one will know if it made a difference but the margin of victory was 3 points.  It was a very competitive game.

[The Roop]

And yes, the CCIW was better than the WIAC in 2005-06...just as the UAA was better than the WIAC this year. 

C'mon Q, that's a rose colored glasses statement. You can't base a conferences quality on the success of one team. CCIW, WIAC and UAA are pretty much 6 of one and half a dozen of the other. LOL.

Hooper, The consolation game is important and I will never understand why D1 did away with it. The D3 players obviously take it seriously but I don't think that a 10 point lead is that big of deal to overcome. A 3 point game is just a 3 point game.

[Titan Q]

And yes, the CCIW was better than the WIAC in 2005-06...just as the UAA was better than the WIAC this year. 

C'mon Q, that's a rose colored glasses statement. You can't base a conferences quality on the success of one team. CCIW, WIAC and UAA are pretty much 6 of one and half a dozen of the other. LOL.

The UAA finished:

Chicago 11-3
Wash U 10-4
Brandeis 10-4
Rochester 9-5
Carnegie Mellon 6-8
NYU 6-8
Emory 3-11
Case Western Reserve 1-13


The WIAC finished:

Whitewater 13-3
Stevens Point 12-4
Platteville 12-4
Oshkosh 11-5
Superior 6-10
La Crosse 6-10
Eau Claire 5-11
Stout 4-12
River Falls 3-13

In conference play, the national champs lost to Rochester, Carnegie Mellon, Brandeis, and Chicago.  There was a ton of parity among those top 4 in the UAA.

Based on the way the post-season played out, I believe it's pretty easy to make the case that the UAA was better than the WIAC this year.

For '07-08, Massey Index has...

1. UAA
2. CCIW
3. WIAC

http://www.mratings.com/rate.php?lg=cb&sub=III&mid=1#conf

[Titan Q]

C'mon Q, that's a rose colored glasses statement. You can't base a conferences quality on the success of one team. CCIW, WIAC and UAA are pretty much 6 of one and half a dozen of the other. LOL.

As for '05-06, the CCIW finished:

Augustana 11-3
Elmhurst 9-5
North Central 9-5
Illinois Wesleyan 9-5
Wheaton 7-7
Carthage 6-8
Millikin 3-11
North Park 2-12

The WIAC...

Whitewater 13-3
Stout 12-4
Stevens Point 11-5
La Crosse 10-6
Oshkosh 10-6
Platteville 7-9
River Falls 5-11
Eau Claire 4-12
Superior 0-16

The CCIW had four extremely even teams.  All but one game played between the 4 contenders was a game decided in the final seconds.

In the NCAA tournament, the CCIW knocked out the WIAC - IWU dominated Whitewater in Whitewater, and Augustana defeated Stout.  IWU went on to the Final Four.  Just as I think it's easy to make the case the UAA was better than the WIAC this year, I think the same case can be made about the CCIW in '05-06.

In non-conference play that year, IWU went 15-1...10-0 before Jan. 1 and 5-1 in the NCAA tournament.  IWU lost 6 games in CCIW play (including the conf tournament).  It's funny that LU nut always suggests something along the lines that IWU must have been "poorly coached at times or just plain mentally weak" from about January 1 through late February...but they must have been fine pre-January 1 and post-February 25.  Maybe the CCIW was just good that year and IWU lost some tough games to good teams?

[Greek Tragedy]

Is this debate really necessary? lol...Yeah, the UAA was better than the WIAC this year and the CCIW was better than the WIAC two years ago...not a big deal.  It sure is nice to say, "We're the best conference", but there isn't much of a difference, IMO, to say, "We're one of the best 3 conferences"...because the WIAC is. 

Lately, I think it is a lot more fun when teams from these conferences actually play each other...as the CCIW and WIAC have lately.  At least we have a few comparisons to look at!  It's a fun conversation to have.

Since this is the MWC board, what conferences compare to the MWC.  I still consider the MWC very top-heavy (LU and CC in NCAA terms, along with Grinnell), so I'd kind of compare them to the MIAA (top heavy with Hope and Calvin) NCAC (Wooster and Wittenberg) and the NJAC (with Richard Stockton and William Paterson).  By no means am I saying Lawrence is as good as Hope or Carroll is as good as Wooster, but top heavy, none the less...also throw in the MIAC, which can be comparable with St. Thomas, Gustavus Adolphus and now Bethel.