MBB: Midwest Conference

[Titan Q]

Current tuition + room/board costs per U.S. News & World Report:

CCIW
Illinois Wesleyan: $37,780
Augustana: $33,717
North Central: $32,241
Carthage: $32,000
Elmhurst: $31,784
Millikin: $31,055
Wheaton: $30,982
North Park: $24,350

MWC
Lake Forest $38,290
Grinnell $38,222
Lawrence $37,770
Beloit $36,546
Knox $35,478
St. Norbert $31,232
Ripon $29,733
Monmouth $28,500
Carroll $27,250
Ill. College $24,770

[The Roop]

So the MWC is $1040.48 a year higher than the CCIW.

To resolve this crisis, I propose that the CCIW takes Lake Forest. Then the tuition rates would nearly be equal and both conferences could play a double round robin schedule in basketball. The average tuition change would make the CCIW only $299.78 higher per year than the MWC.

[Titan Q]

So the MWC is $1040.48 a year higher than the CCIW.

To resolve this crisis, I propose that the CCIW takes Lake Forest. Then the tuition rates would nearly be equal and both conferences could play a double round robin schedule in basketball. The average tuition change would make the CCIW only $299.78 higher per year than the MWC.

They were in...and bailed on us!

The conference was formed with nine charter members (Augustana, Carthage, Elmhurst, Illinois College, Illinois Wesleyan, Lake Forest, Millikin, North Central and Wheaton) on April 26, 1946, in Jacksonville, Ill., and opened competition in the 1946-47 academic year as the College Conference of Illinois.

http://www.cciw.org/general/conference_history.php

[LU_nut]

Q:   Wasn't Carroll once in the CCIW as well???   Some on this site may have forgotten, but the MWC has changed a great deal over the years too.    Past members have included St. Olaf, Carelton, Coe, Cornell and the University of Chicago.

For what it is worth, Wisconsin is a nice place for D3 to recruit kids as well as the Chicago area.   What makes Wisc. a good area is that the HS ball has gotten pretty good and more importantly, there is only one D2 program in the state.   In Illinois, you have a ton of D1 programs, even low level ones like Chicago State, at least a couple of D2 programs like Lewis and then I believe a number of NAIA D1(scholarship) programs like St. Xavier and I believe Robert Morris(I think they are NAIA, too lazy to look for sure).    Winona State has dominated D2 nationally the last 3 years with a number of Wisconsin kids.   Minnesota HS ball is probably not as good as Wisconsin ball, but the state has a bunch of D2 programs like Bemidji, Duluth, Mankato, etc.    One of the problems for the MWC schools is the competition by the State WIAC schools which are much less expensive.   Of course, private schools with solid endowments can and do bridge the gap for kids that are either very bright or do not come from terribly wealthy homes.      I guess what I am saying is that I think proximity to Chicago is less a variable than the facilities, traditions, etc.
Having said that, many MWC facilities have been upgraded in recent years, but I still think they pale in comparison to most the CCIW facilities.   I also do continue to believe that size is something of an issue.   All of the CCIW schools are 2000 or over.   All but 2 of the MWC schools are around 1500 or less.   Kids in the Chicago suburban schools that tend to be a hotbed for CCIW players tend to come from HS's that are around 2000 kids or more and struggle with the idea of going to a College smaller than their HS.  Of course, there are exceptions.   

[Mr. Ypsi]

Yes, Carroll was in the CCIW from 1956 through 1992.  Their all-time conference record in men's bball was 187-364; that .339 pace was by far the worst of any conference school, which may at least partially explain their departure.

They have obviously upgraded the bball program in recent years!

[Mr. Ypsi]

Greg,

I waited 'til I knew it was near your time to post.  Thanks for spending all that time on MapQuest to prove my point (which was admittedly 'seat-of-the-pants' guesstimation)!  Some of the MWC teams (33%) are closer than R.I. or B'town.  Most are not significantly farther than Rock Island (though I'll yield on Bloomington): by my definition of 'significantly' farther, only Grinnell would qualify.  Even if I give you I.C., that's still 7 of 9 that no reasonable person would call significantly farther.

BTW, I don't want you to break your arm patting yourself on the back about sending me to the CCIW website.  I had already posted on other websites about both the golf and track victories.  The track came out of the blue, since the Lady Titans had never before even won a conference title, but I was aware of their 6th consecutive golf title by the end of day one of the tourney.

[Mr. Ypsi]

So the MWC is $1040.48 a year higher than the CCIW.

To resolve this crisis, I propose that the CCIW takes Lake Forest. Then the tuition rates would nearly be equal and both conferences could play a double round robin schedule in basketball. The average tuition change would make the CCIW only $299.78 higher per year than the MWC.

Realizing that virtually no students pay 'retail' anyway, North Park has embarked on an experiment regarding the effects of 'sticker shock': they drastically lowered tuition (with, of course, a commensurate reduction in financial aid).

If NPU is omitted from the calculations, the CCIW actually averages a whopping $15 a year higher than the MWC.  Geez, you guys get all the tuition advantages; how can we possibly compete!

[Gregory Sager]

Could the cost of school be a factor as well? I'm too lazy to do the research, but I'm willing to guess that the average tution at MWC schools is significantly higher than the tuition of the other conferences. Given that much of the CCIW is made up of state-schools, it must be less expensive to attend those schools.

As Roop has already pointed out, there are no state schools in the CCIW. In fact, the CCIW has never had any state-school members in its 62-year history.

Q:   Wasn't Carroll once in the CCIW as well???

There are three current MWC members that were once members of the CCIW: Illinois College, Lake Forest, and Carroll.

For what it is worth, Wisconsin is a nice place for D3 to recruit kids as well as the Chicago area.   What makes Wisc. a good area is that the HS ball has gotten pretty good and more importantly, there is only one D2 program in the state.   In Illinois, you have a ton of D1 programs, even low level ones like Chicago State, at least a couple of D2 programs like Lewis and then I believe a number of NAIA D1(scholarship) programs like St. Xavier and I believe Robert Morris(I think they are NAIA, too lazy to look for sure).

Robert Morris-Chicago -- the national powerhouse -- is NAIA D1. Robert Morris-Springfield -- whose competitive level is much more modest -- is a USCAA program.

While you're correct that Illinois has many more scholarship basketball schools than does Wisconsin, it also needs to be said that Illinois has 12.8 million people living in it, while Wisconsin only has about 5.5 million residents.

Winona State has dominated D2 nationally the last 3 years with a number of Wisconsin kids.

Very true, and I found out the hard way that it is not appreciated when one points out this particular factoid in the MIAC room.

I guess what I am saying is that I think proximity to Chicago is less a variable than the facilities, traditions, etc.
Having said that, many MWC facilities have been upgraded in recent years, but I still think they pale in comparison to most the CCIW facilities.

I agree on both counts, and as I said yesterday I think that the Chicagoland-proximity issue is one of the more minor advantages that the CCIW has over the MWC.

I also do continue to believe that size is something of an issue.   All of the CCIW schools are 2000 or over.   All but 2 of the MWC schools are around 1500 or less.   Kids in the Chicago suburban schools that tend to be a hotbed for CCIW players tend to come from HS's that are around 2000 kids or more and struggle with the idea of going to a College smaller than their HS.  Of course, there are exceptions.

And I still think that your whole student-population argument is a red herring, as the difference in size between MWC and CCIW schools is not all that great. Anyone put off by the smallness of an MWC school is going to be put off by the smallness of a CCIW school as well.

Greg,

I waited 'til I knew it was near your time to post.  Thanks for spending all that time on MapQuest to prove my point (which was admittedly 'seat-of-the-pants' guesstimation)!  Some of the MWC teams (33%) are closer than R.I. or B'town.  Most are not significantly farther than Rock Island (though I'll yield on Bloomington): by my definition of 'significantly' farther, only Grinnell would qualify.  Even if I give you I.C., that's still 7 of 9 that no reasonable person would call significantly farther.

I really wouldn't have bothered, but I have to admit that the distance discussion piqued my curiosity enough to look up that mileage on MapQuest. I was more interested in refuting your point about Bloomington, since that's the obvious totem pole around which you keep dancing. Rock Island isn't significantly farther out than most MWC schools, true; but since Augustana does most of its Chicagoland recruiting in the western suburbs, the distance issue becomes a bit less of a factor there. From my myriad conversations with Augie people over the years, the impression I've developed is that the bigger obstacle Augie has to overcome in recruiting with regard to its location is the Rust Belt dumpiness of the QC rather than its distance from the 'burbs.

BTW, I don't want you to break your arm patting yourself on the back about sending me to the CCIW website.  I had already posted on other websites about both the golf and track victories.  The track came out of the blue, since the Lady Titans had never before even won a conference title, but I was aware of their 6th consecutive golf title by the end of day one of the tourney.

There are some days in which that self-administered back-pat is the best exercise I get, Chuck.

[systemfan86]

News to me. I didn't know the CCIW had ANY state schools.

http://www.cciw.org/general/mission_statement.php

Sorry about that, I was thinking WIAC and typed CCIW. Big difference. Brain cramp on my part. Apparently the Grinnell education didn't take with me...

[The Roop]

I think Millikin was one of the original MWC members.

[pgkevin]

pretty dead around these parts lately, try to get some conversation going by predicting order for next year...obviously we dont know anything about recruits so lets realize that going in..just trying to get some fun debating going

1. St. Norberts-thats right, going out on a limb, although am I really?  They just lose Bieniasz and there Coach has that program headed in the right direction

2. Lawrence-Hurley will be tough to replace, Rosenblatt was one of those scrappy players who really came up with the big plays at big moments, so he may even be tougher to replace, but Kroeger with another years worth of experience?  Scary

3.  Carroll-Ladwig is a monster, thats all there is to it

4.  Ripon-My surprise pick of the year, Gillespie as a sophomore will continue to impress, and I feel like maybe a bit of addition by subtraction in a few places

5.  Grinnell-I know, I know, this will draw a ton of criticism, but that stretch where they struggled without Chamberlin this year I think really provides us with insight into how and why they will struggle this year, even tho Grotberg and Arsenault have another year under their belts, just no one to protect the basket

6.  Lake Forest--Lose scary, athletic big man Walker, Rees will be a steady contributor underneath.  Not much else coming back though, especially after an unimpressive campaign.

7.  Beloit-bounces back from a tough campaign, Vraney seems to have the team headed in the right direction with a few of those wins at the end of last season, and obviously the Big Man wont have much competition inside.

8.  Monmouth-Another new coach with a very tough rookie campaign, should be interesting now that he has a chance to completely take ahold of recruting etc.

9. Illinois College-always been very athletically gifted, just never seemed to bring it together, maybe this is the year?  I dont think so

10.  Knox-Don't know very much about them at all, probably a reason why.


Few general thoughts at the end here, seems to be a Wisconsin bias in my posts, could be because I just have been to see more of their games, could just be because their better, you be the judge.

Teams that could fluctuate greatly in the standings...Ripon, LF, Monmouth
Ripon could take a huge drop bc I see that team having some internal troubles if things go wrong
LF because they always seem to be in the race somehow
Monmouth is just incredibly athletic as well, see if Coach can get them to play together now

Guess I'd like to get input back on the whole post obviously but specifically this last part, because we all know the Lawrence, Carroll and St Norberts of the world will be up at the top and Knox and Illinois College always seem to be the cellar dwellars, but it will be these middle of the pack things that may end up deciding things this year

I know theres still like 11 months still basketball season...just bored at work

[The Roop]

Good news/Bad news for Beloit fans. Good news is that Jordan Fischer from New Roop City High will not be attending a WIAC school. Bad news, he's not going to Beloit either. Instead he signed a letter of intent to play for D2 Winona State.

I knew he probably wouldn't go D1 but didn't think he would slip to the D3 level. Most that can pick somebody clean, go coast to coast and throw it down with 2 hands as a Jr. in high school don't wind up in D3**. Didn't have the chance to see him as a Sr. this past season but I doubt he got worse. How hard Beloit was after him I don't know, but I do know that they were interested.

Beloit has all but wrapped up one potential starter for this season. He'll get plenty of minutes at the very least. I can't name names as it's not official until he's enrolled. 2 year starter in high school and had significant minutes as a So. This year his team was one game away from State losing to Monroe in the D2 WIAA Sectonals.

When you see the roster and wonder if he's so and so's younger brother, yes he is. 

[LU_nut]

Thanks pgkevin for trying to stimulate a little basketball discussion.   I have not heard a thing about recruits, which I imagine will have some impact on next years projections.    Your picks all seem directionally correct, but I have a hard time seeing Ripon moving around Grinnell.   Ripon, in my humble view, has been a disappointment ever since Becker graduated.   They lost their second and third leading scorers as well.   The coaches son will score a lot, but will need to shoot a lot again in order to do so.   I really do not see them moving up.  They only won 6 conference games this past year.  I agree that as long as Ladwig and the coach are at Carroll, they will be competitive.

My view is the same 4 teams make the tourney.   Having said that, that is probably a rarity.    It seems that strong coaching has moved certain programs towards the top such as LU, Carroll, and Grinnell and they now seem to be there each year.    I would think that one of the southern teams that have changed coaches such as MM or Knox will get it going one of these years.   Same for Beloit, but it is going to take some time to get the recruits into the program.

I do agree that LU will miss their two seniors that graduated.  However, their guard combo of Kadison and Kroeger will once again be the best in the league(grinnell is close) and will make them tough to beat.   Page and Decker had very strong years as well and return along with Applegren.  Chamberlin's importance to Grinnell was shown this year, but they made the playoffs basically without him and with Grotberg, Arsenault, and Long all back, it is hard to see them missing the playoffs.   In my view, Long is one of the better players in the conference and due for some recognition.  That threesome is very good and senior leadership makes a big difference.

Again, it is likely that someone new breaks in, but I just do not see who it is at this point.    I would think that the battle for first should be pretty close this year, but I must say I thought Grinnell would battle LU to the wire last year and I was wrong.

Nut

[The Roop]

Sounds like all the Whitewater gray shirting and transfers has one recruit reconsidering the Navy and Gold. That would make 4 for sure and one on the fence.

[minneapolis miracle]

Lake Forest has added three recruits from the Chicago area.

David Campbell-Saint Patrick-PG

Travis Clark-Evanston-PF

Vernard Robeson-Whitney Young-SG