MBB: Midwest Conference

[Old Fighting Scot]

today is my birthday.  I finally have a birthday on a day that I don't have a final on or something major to do!!!

Nobody cares about your bday!!!!  Conversely, mine is next tuesday

[Old Fighting Scot]

the pioneers have been shooting less threes for a few years now and that is directly attributed to their lack of talent in the recent years, more specifically their lack of shooters.  you can only play with the guys who come to your school, and the pioneers havent had very many "system" players recently....

i believe 98-99 was the last time they had an abundance of shooters, and 01 was the last time they had multiple "players." 

[TeeDub]

the main point was, and always will be is that This years Redlands team is not any good.  and because they lack talent that is forcing them to run a system hybrid.  if i recall "the system" or any system for that matter is designed to win games against everyone, not just the worst teams in college basketball.  the good grinnell teams were very talented as well as very efficient in running the system.  the aforementioned redlands team only has ONE basketball player, and thus is not able to run the system effectively.  Because they can not run the system effectively, but continue to run it, they will lose a lot of games to good teams and will be able to beat a few terrible teams. 

For those that do not know a main goal of the system is to speed up opponents into taking shots quickly (a la easy layup or wide open three ball), turning the ball over, and creating fouls do to fatigue.  The system teams want you to shoot quickly and prefer layups so that they can match your attempts with 3 point attempts.  if i get 100 possesions, turn it over 20-30 times (a system goal), and only shoot 60 percent (or less, another system goal) from the field i would score i would score between 96 (high end) and 84 (low end).  You can add between 10-15 pts for ft's and teams are still only scoring 106 on the high end. 

Conversely if i am playing the system and i get 100 possessions  (actually would be more with +/- turnover ratio, see bottom), only turn it over 10-20 times (to's should be less b/c you are used to playing at this tempo) and lets just say i take 75 threes in my original 100 possessions; hitting 30% would give me 66 pts, 40% would give me 90pts.  add in 10-15 for free throws and plus 10-20 for buckets (probably layups) that are scored on the extra possessions "the system" creates and you have a team scoring between 90 (low end) and 125 (high end) 

If you are running a system "hybrid" your are not running "the system." the system is famous for creating turnovers and the three ball emphasis.  scoring a lot of points is not what makes the system......

OFS,

I am impressed with how hard you work to make such unfounded replies.  I am equally impressed with the understanding of the "System" you have yet based on earlier comments, you couldn't do anything against it.  It is interesting how riddled your alma mater's record books are with Grinnell's numbers (but I will concede, that applies to many schools).

Nonetheless, let's take a look at your facts for a moment.  First, I believe, if I understand Coach A's philosophy correctly (maybe JeffP can answer this better than I), the System was not designed to "win games against everyone".  The reality is that Coach A was trying to embody more of the D3 spirit by creating a competitive, PARTICIPATORY style of play...winning was never the premise.  Winning (especially against Monmouth) has just been a welcomed by-product.

You also are really doing a disservice to "those who don't know" when you try to describe the system.  Pace, creating a disparity in shots through turnovers and offensive rebounds and recognizing, given those first two elements, the value of a 3 for 2 mentality to the overall 40 minutes of the game.  There are other subtilties, but they may be far too advanced for you to understand.

So then, let's take a look at this season:

Grinnell is taking approximately 98 shots per game
Redlands is taking approximately 109 shots per game

Grinnell is taking approximately 61 3-point shots per game
Redlands is taking approximately 76 3-point shots per game

Grinnell is making approximately 22 3-point shots per game
Redlands is making approximately 22 3-point shots per game

Grinnell is making their opponents turn it over 29 times per game
Redlands is making their opponents turn it over 32 times per game

Grinnell is making 17 steals per game
Redlands is making 20 steals per game

.....maybe it is just me, but those do seem (less the percentage of 3's going in the hole) like very similar "SYSTEM"  teams to me.  But, I'm sure I'm missing something...and of course, you will probably let me know what that is...

[Maverick]

today is my birthday.  I finally have a birthday on a day that I don't have a final on or something major to do!!!

Snydz - Happy birthday buddy!

Now someone with the ability to do so needs to hit Snydz with a negative karma b-day present!  Ha!

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

JeffP is our resident system expert, but those numbers do seem to be indicative of solid play, although rebounds, expecially offensive rebounds would be another one I'd like to see before passing judgement.

[TeeDub]

JeffP is our resident system expert, but those numbers do seem to be indicative of solid play, although rebounds, expecially offensive rebounds would be another one I'd like to see before passing judgement.

Thank you for the suggestion Hoops Fan...

Grinnell has grabbed 163 of the available 408 Offensive Rebounds (39+%)
Redlands has grabbed 237 of the available 553 Offensive Rebounds (40+%)

[Old Fighting Scot]

actually free throws is the most telling stat that i have not completely stated the importance of.  i would bet money that grinnell has won most games where they have shot more free throws.  and generally the FTa's range in the 40-50 range for both teams.

jordis, so you are saying that Coach A does not care about winning?  hmmm, that is interesting, i thought he wanted to play an exciting brand of ball that wins games and involves a whole team.  i didnt think he was in the business of just making sure everyone gets to play... 

Jordis you have made stellar arguments but stating that any coach in any sport at any level in AMERICA none the less doesnt care about winning is just ludicrous.  Also i am pretty sure that i have stated Grinnell has not had the amount of good shooters in the last three to 4 years as it has in years past.  i havent seen grinnell yet this year.  i have only seen redlands and i am comparing them to my memory of both good and bad grinnell teams.  Good grinnell teams rained threes unconsciously b/c they had the personnel to do so.  recent teams have had to rely more on defense, and penetration.  you are trying to make me out to be a system hater.  i love the "true system" style of play, it is great to watch (horrible to play against).  maybe i was just dissappointed when i saw redlands b/c of how bad they were.  last year they led the NCAA in scoring, and when i saw them it looked as if they would struggle to drop a hundo on third grade girls team from the sisters of the poor.  Just my assessment....

And why do you keep bringing up what MC did against the system, we were 3-5 in my four years, never winning at the old aircraft hanger (sometimes seeming like no coincidence).  and if you really want to see an anomally we beat grinnell at MC once 63-60, explain that one....  I can, can you?

[Old Fighting Scot]

JR-
just so you know i gave you a karma boost for your willingness to argue

[TeeDub]

OFS,

We all play to win, but I merely stated that winning was not the premise to the development of this style of play.

There a couple things about your posts that scare me.

just so you know i gave you a karma boost for your willingness to argue

1. That you actually have a status worthy of dishing out Karma points, and,

i love the "true system" style of play, it is great to watch (horrible to play against).  maybe i was just dissappointed when i saw redlands b/c of how bad they were.  last year they led the NCAA in scoring, and when i saw them it looked as if they would struggle to drop a hundo on third grade girls team from the sisters of the poor.  Just my assessment....

2.  Your assessment about the ability to score points when Redlands has dropped 119+ (124.2/gm avg.) against 7 of their 8 opponents, including Chapman, Muskingum and Sisters of the Poor....

Bonus Point

And why do you keep bringing up what MC did against the system, we were 3-5 in my four years, never winning at the old aircraft hanger (sometimes seeming like no coincidence).

I should yield to your knowledge of poor programs, since I don't think you ever achieved a winning record in your four years at MC.

ps.....I enjoy the friendly banter too...thanks for the Karma point

[LUVikings04]

OLD SCHOOL...My take on the Game.  Carthage is a very Athletic team.. they are the best 2-6 team that I have seen.  They have a really quick PG that can get to the basket at will and their big men are very talented.  Their problem is that they don't play as a Team.  They look like an NBA team where there is a lot of talent but not a lot of team play.  Carthage played a zone and for some reason LU was hesisitant to shoot the three.  I know that Hollinbeck & Falls would have been licking their chops if they saw that last year.  Once LU got comfortable, they hit some shots and pulled away in the end.  LU freshman, Kroeger is making a name for himself and he continues to impress me.  MacGillis led all scores with 17 and Braier had 16 boards.  Turning point of the game is when 5 subs were in the game with about 12 mins to go and maintained the lead while giving the starters a much needed rest....they were all in there for a good five mins.  They were the spark off that helped Increase LU lead over Carthage College.   A hard fought win on the road to a team that will definetely make some noise during CCIW conference play.

All aboard the LU Train!!!  

[lu_nut]

Old School,

Since you laid down the challenge, I will pile on.  Lu 04 has it about right.  Carthage has played a very tough schedule, but  has has seemed to figure out how to loose close games despite a bunch of talent, both at the guard and big man positions.  They played a zone the whole game....not sure if that is always their style.  LU did not warm up from the 3 point line until the second half.  Freshman Kroeger is the real deal.  LU center also had a big game(7-8 from the field).  Braier and McGillis came to play as they always do. As LU 04 mentioned, the second 5 did a very nice job holding even during the second half until the 5 starters came back with 7 minutes to go.  It was the LU d that then was the difference as it usually is.

Carthage still confuses me in that they seem to get plenty of talent, but are lacking something on the floor.  Lu has kicked them twice now including on their home floor.

BTW,  I would not have thought it at the start of the season, but I believe this LU team has the potential to be the best they have had.  It is still early, but their depth seems to match the exceptional depth they have had the last couple of years.   They have lost a lot of good shooters the past two years, but seem to have largely(not entirely) replaced the losses.  They are probably stronger than they have been up front as the main guys are now upper-classmen.

[Greek Tragedy]

LUV04 and LU-Nut,

That's all I ask for!    I figured you Viking fans would be more willing to post game reports since LU is pretty good and winning and all that.  At least, that seems to be the norm.  When "your" team loses, most posters are reluctant to post how their team lost!  There aren't many posters that give game reports on a regular basis and I'd actually like to hear from those Carroll fans since they seem to be pretty good.  There are Beloit, Ripon, Grinnell, Knox (I think!) and Lawrence posters, but not much, if any, from St. Norb's, or the Ill. schools.

Oh well...thanks for your belated input.

[The Roop]

Sometimes you feel like an lu_nut, sometimes you don't.

[titan2000]

The Carroll fans could report on games earlier but first they need to make bail because most local jails don't provide internet access.

I know the Outagamie Cty Jail puts extra staff on when Carroll comes to Appleton.  Just in case.

[hjmphelp]

Man, that will teach me to go home early!

OFS-I can't believe some of what you say! Pre 2000, grinnell only had two or three shooters per team! Since they were so prolific it might have looked like there were ten or twelve, but no! During the early 2000's there were as many as nine competent 3 pt shot artists (some didn't score as much because they didn't have the other skills to compete against the top ten players for more time) and 3-6 GREAT shooters! Do you remember lines with the likes of Malinowski, Wood, S Nordland, Skarning, and Hocking from 00-01? or Norland, Duder(Z Carlson), Wood, Walsh, Petersen from 01-02? We're talking WHOLE LINES of great shooters and scorers, and I could keep naming players! Maybe that is why your team had trouble beating GC-you never could recognize the shooters!

And Jordis doesn't need much help from me! He has about as good a handle on the system as anyone. And he is absolutely right! The system was developed to get more participation AND to help level the playing field! Jordis DID NOT suggest that system teams don't want to win! Nothing could be farther from the truth-either with system ball OR in Jordis' statement! What he said so eloquently was that most system coaches know that they won't be able to win every game. Talent is the great equalizer for non-system opponents, no question! Redlands is just about at the same point Grinnell was 7 or eight years in-roughly 50% w/l record with a few burps one way or the other. I suspect that Redlands is very close to a breakout year. It may not be this year or even next, but they are very close. What you perceive after witnessing a whopping game and 1/2 of Redlands ball as a bad hybrid is simply ludicrous at best. You may be winning points with those who don't pay attention, but you are losing miserably with your goofy pull-out-yer-bum arguements with those who understand the reality of how the system began, how it has evolved, and where it may (or may not) be headed at Redlands, at Grinnell, and amongst the approaching 100 high school, Juco and College teams playing or learning about it.