MBB: Midwest Conference

[OBC]

Does anyone have a recap of the Carroll v. North Park game from last night?

[The Roop]

You're new to the board OBC so I will help you out. Contact Greg Sager on the CCIW board. He know's everything North Park.

[OBC]

Roop, thanks for the heads up. I checked out the CCIW board and found out what happened. The MWC website composite schedule has the score reversed, but Carroll's website has it right.

One thing I noticed on the CCIW board was discussion of JV games. I find this strange at the collegiate level. You don't hear about Division 1 JV programs. Are they a D3 phenomenon? Do any MWC schools have JV programs that actually support and feed their varsity team?

I would really like to hear about this. How do schools afford it (travel, equipment, personnel)? It appears that most MWC schools have 1 full-time basketball coach at most. Many have other responsibilities as well.

Does the WIAC have JV as well?   

[John Gleich]

Does the WIAC have JV as well?   

JV games are allowable in the WIAC, but the WIAC bilaws state that the JV schedule is limited to 25% of the total number of games in any given sport (so you're looking at a maximum of 5 JV games).  Also, no class time can be missed for a JV game, further restricting them.

Certain WIAC teams have played JV games in the recent past (notably Platteville, Stout played one earlier this year too, I think, I know some football teams have played a JV game or two), but the relative distance that most WIAC schools are from others makes travel costs a consideration for some.

Furthermore, along the lines of travel, because the WIAC has gone to a men/women double header schedule for Saturday games, the JV games would have to occur much, much earlier (especially because the Saturday games have been pushed forward in recent years).

I think that some of the teams would be open to playing a JV schedule... but it almost seems like more of a headache than an aid.

[dansand]

Does the WIAC have JV as well?   

Furthermore, along the lines of travel, because the WIAC has gone to a men/women double header schedule for Saturday games, the JV games would have to occur much, much earlier (especially because the Saturday games have been pushed forward in recent years).

I think that some of the teams would be open to playing a JV schedule... but it almost seems like more of a headache than an aid.

With the CCIW moving in the direction of men's/women's doubleheaders also, it has changed how JV programs are managed. For example, I think Augie only played eight JV games last year (although that was also due to injuries). This year, they have 15 scheduled, but only four against CCIW opponents. The bulk of the JV competition occurs during the non-conference portion of the schedule.

It's interesting to see how the schools in the CCIW treat their respective JV programs. At Augie, it's been an integral part of the the program for as long as I've been following it (35 years). I'm sure Titan Q would say the same for Illinois Wesleyan. Some others use it basically as a way to bring male bodies on campus. When you see 15-20 kids on a JV team, it's probably not really being seriously utilized to develop players. But don't think that it's just glorified intramurals. There's a long list of all-conference and All-America players who spent time at the JV level.

[Gregory Sager]

One thing I noticed on the CCIW board was discussion of JV games. I find this strange at the collegiate level.

It's not typical d3boards.com behavior. As far as I know, the CCIW room is the only one in which JV teams are discussed. We CCIW room regulars tend to be a pretty obsessed bunch ... and several of us really like the freshmen in our respective programs this year.

Do any MWC schools have JV programs that actually support and feed their varsity team?

I honestly don't know. North Park doesn't seem to schedule any JV games against MWC opponents, although NPU annually scrimmages Lake Forest in the preseason, and that scrimmage always includes at least one JV half. Those who regularly follow various MWC teams will have to answer that question for you, and it may be on a school-by-school basis.

I would really like to hear about this. How do schools afford it (travel, equipment, personnel)? It appears that most MWC schools have 1 full-time basketball coach at most. Many have other responsibilities as well.

It's an expense that gets factored into the athletic budget at various CCIW schools. As Dan indicated, it's a way to bring more male bodies on campus, so in theory JV programs should pay for themselves, or come close to it. NPU, for example, has JV programs for men's basketball, football, and men's soccer, but has never had a JV team in a women's sport. The interest just isn't there.

Costs are kept down for JV games. F'rinstance, for North Park's home JV basketball games, the game staff is minimal and only two refs are used. For away games, the NPU JV uses vans rather than a touring bus, and all of the games are not much more than an hour's drive from campus, at most.

Assistant coaches coach the JV teams. It's often seen as a resume-building experience for younger assistant coaches, among other things. JV teams generally practice with the varsity (at least at NPU; I know that at Carthage the JV men's basketball team practices separately a couple of times per week), and often JV players will dress for varsity as well, keeping in mind that JV games count towards the 25-game limit for player participation in the regular season.

Dan is right that the new women's/men's Saturday doubleheader policy in the CCIW has curtailed a lot of CCIW JV games. Scheduling JV games has thus become something of a scramble for CCIW basketball programs. This season North Park has 15 JV games scheduled, and only six of them are against CCIW opponents. Of those six games, two apiece are against Carthage and North Central, with one apiece against Augustana and Elmhurst. Five games are against NAthCon JV opponents (including twice against Aurora, whom the NPU varsity doesn't even play this season), and the rest are against local community colleges.

Dan's also right that different CCIW programs have put different emphases on their JV teams. While Augie and IWU have used it more as a feeder system than others, North Park, for instance, has often used it as more or less a pool for practice bodies. Even when North Park was winning national championships the JV team tended to be pretty poor. If you were good enough, you found time on the varsity right away as a freshman. That's changed at the moment, though, as the Vikings have a tremendous amount of depth on the varsity this year and a very good freshman class. Therefore, the JV team at NPU is much better than it usually is.

Sometimes attrition (injuries, academic or social probation, players quitting, etc.) will force a CCIW program to have to cancel its JV season and simply dress everyone on the roster for varsity games. This will occasionally happen right in the middle of the season, leading to canceled games. There's a certain amount of expendability to junior varsity basketball.

I'm very interested to see whether or not JV teams are alive and well in the MWC.

[OBC]

Greg, thanks for all the detail. Very interesting.

I know that Illinois College used to have a JV team a number of years ago. But they really didn't play a MWC schedule. Don't know whether they still do that or not.

At Grinnell, we typically play 16-20 guys every game, so a JV program would probably be moot for us. At schools where coaches typically play a hard 6 (or maybe 7) I can see where it gets more floor time for kids you expect to contribute in the future.

[The Roop]

Back in the the day there was a pseudo JV MWC. 5 or 6 teams plus the University of Wisconsins JV. Not sure how many schools have a JV these days. Typically we just call them CCIW anyway. 

[OBC]

CCIW, really? I thought we called them WIAC.

[Titan Q]

It's interesting to see how the schools in the CCIW treat their respective JV programs. At Augie, it's been an integral part of the the program for as long as I've been following it (35 years). I'm sure Titan Q would say the same for Illinois Wesleyan. Some others use it basically as a way to bring male bodies on campus. When you see 15-20 kids on a JV team, it's probably not really being seriously utilized to develop players. But don't think that it's just glorified intramurals. There's a long list of all-conference and All-America players who spent time at the JV level.

I agree that Augustana and IWU have a similar philosophy surrounding JV basketball.

At Illinois Wesleyan the JV program is definitely a very important part of the overall men's basketball program.  The JV's have their own schedule, with some games simply preceding the varsity and others played independently of the varsity.  For example, tonight they play @ Parkland CC in Champaign, IL...

http://www.iwusports.com/sports/2010/11/4/MBB_1104100637.aspx?path=mbball

I always look at the JV program like an AAA baseball team.  The FR and SO players who are not quite ready to play on the varsity, or are blocked, get a great chance to play in real games and learn the the IWU "system."  Some get "called up" during the season on occasion, and some get their chance on the varsity the next year -- in both cases, I think the players are much better off than had they just been practice players riding the varsity bench.

The reason I enjoy following the IWU JV team is much like many baseball fans keep a close eye on their AAA affiliate.  There are some extremely talented kids on the team and it's fun to watch them develop.
 

[The Roop]

Thanks OBC. You've invited "those" people over now. LOL.

[East Beast]

Thanks OBC. You've invited "those" people over now. LOL.

Now we'll have to turn the vocabulary down a notch just to be fair.

[Mr. Ypsi]

Thanks OBC. You've invited "those" people over now. LOL.

Now we'll have to turn the vocabulary down a notch just to be fair.

We from the CCIW will endeavor to eschew obfuscation so you can follow along.

[The Roop]

We have Monmouth posters here Mr. Ypsi, don't confuse them.

[Just Bill]

Thanks OBC. You've invited "those" people over now. LOL.

Now we'll have to turn the vocabulary down a notch just to be fair.

I can't imagine why some people feel the MWC is a bit snobby.