MBB: Midwest Conference

[Titan Q]

I guess the reason, from a Grinnell standpoint, for the effort to get a player an individual scoring record is all the press that comes with?  For example...

http://content.usatoday.com/communities/campusrivalry/post/2011/11/grinells-lentsch-scores-89-points-best-in-d-iii-history/1

http://msn.foxsports.com/collegebasketball/story/Griffin-Lentsch-of-Grinnell-College-explodes-for-record-89-points-111911


From that second link:

Grinnell coach David N. Arseneault was just as amazed as anyone.

"We knew Griffin had a chance to put up big numbers," he said. "But something like this is simply amazing."


As amazed as anyone?  Arseneault drew up this contrived effort to get Lentsch a scoring record (I believe the goal was actually 100 points)...which he told people in Grinnell, IA about leading up to the game.  And he allowed Lentsch to stay in the game the final 10 minutes, with his team up 40, to score another 26 points.

"Amazed"?

[woosterbooster]

This reminds me of the girls' high school game when Lisa Leslie scored 100 points.  Screw Grinnell, their coach, and the horse that they rode in on. 

[gcfan33]

Interestingly enough, Principia missed 20 Free Throws in the game, and missed almost 30 shots from the field (I am guessing mostly layups and five footers given the way Grinnell plays).  They probably could have won this game and given up 89 to Lentsch if they had hit foul shots and made layups.  I wasn't there, but just my 2 cents.

[larry_u]

Arsenault is a hack, I'm sure he just wished he had come up with the idea when Daddy's Lil' boy was still playing so he could have done it...

If I'm on the court for Principia, and that kid goes up for another shot up that much, I'm putting him on his back no questions asked.

[gcfan33]

He did.  His son had 34 assists.  So selfish....

[bballer1280]

You can say what you want about whether or not Griffin Lentsch should have been allowed to play 36 minutes in a college game or not for the purpose of setting a national NCAA D3 scoring record and that certainly is anyone's right to do.  To some, it may appear to be a bad thing.  But, for me, I am certain of two things. 

First, many other NCAA student/athletes besides Lentsch will play 36 minutes or more in games this winter and, in fact, a Grinnellian for the women's team already has (Ashley Jeannin, 38 minutes) to name just one.  This is a coach's decision and the coach made a decision to play Lentsch for 36 minutes.  It is as simple as that.  It doesn't matter what Coach A's motive was.  He is the coach and he has final say.  In fact, all coach's have the final say and all players do as instructed.  That is how it always has been and that is how it always will be in athletics.  In addition, from what I have seen of Lentsch as a player, I would be very tempted to play Lentsch 30+ minutes per game all of the time if I were given the chance as a coach.  The kid can play, he is an awesome player, and he sacrifices a lot to play just 20 minutes in a typical Grinnell College men's basketball game.  He would easily average 30 minutes or more of playing time at most other D3 colleges.

Secondly, Lentsch scored 89 points on 77 total shot attempts (field goal attempts plus free throw attempts).  That is a good shooting night in the "macro" sense of scoring the basketball.  I would take that ratio of 89 points on 77 shot attempts every day of the season.  I am pretty sure that most coaches and fans would, too.  In fact, what he accomplished used to happen a lot in the "old days" with such great players as Travis Grant from Kentucky State and Pete Maravich from LSU to name just two players that shot the ball more than their teammates combined.  The idea is to score the ball regardless of what system or offense you use and you run your offense through someone regardless.  Running the ball through Lentsch is how Grinnell will score the ball the most successfully this winter even when they likely return to the typical Grinnell College "System."  Look for Lentsch to potentially lead the nation in scoring this winter playing 22-23 minutes per game.  Of course, as I have already said, I would play him 30+ minutes a game if I had the final say.

I understand that many will disagree with me.  But, I don't really care and I would have loved to have experienced playing in a game where a teammate of mine put 89 points on the scoreboard.  That would have been very memorable.

[John Gleich]

First, many other NCAA student/athletes besides Lentsch will play 36 minutes or more in games this winter and, in fact, a Grinnellian for the women's team already has (Ashley Jeannin, 38 minutes) to name just one.  This is a coach's decision and the coach made a decision to play Lentsch for 36 minutes.  It is as simple as that.  It doesn't matter what Coach A's motive was.  He is the coach and he has final say.  In fact, all coach's have the final say and all players do as instructed.  That is how it always has been and that is how it always will be in athletics.  In addition, from what I have seen of Lentsch as a player, I would be very tempted to play Lentsch 30+ minutes per game all of the time if I were given the chance as a coach.  The kid can play, he is an awesome player, and he sacrifices a lot to play just 20 minutes in a typical Grinnell College men's basketball game.  He would easily average 30 minutes or more of playing time at most other D3 colleges. 

Nobody is going to begrudge a team or a coach for playing their best player for most, or even all of a game... provided that the game is close.  But when the game becomes a blowout, it's classless... clearly, the starters of the superior team A is better than the starters of team B... that's why team A has jumped out to a 40 point lead.  The outcome of the game is not in question at this point... and if it WOULD begin to be in question, the coach from team A could always put the starters back in.

I have no problem with a team playing the starters for about half the game... the fact of the matter is that, even against inferior opponents, there are lessons that can be learned and work that can be achieved by the players who will play the majority of minutes during other games too.  But once the margin gets to a certain point, especially in the second half, there isn't much of a point to keeping those guys in.  As I said, we already KNOW that they're better... plus, there are guys sitting down at the end of the bench who put in just as much work and don't get as much playing time... those guys really should get a chance for some extended time out on the floor.

Secondly, Lentsch scored 89 points on 77 total shot attempts (field goal attempts plus free throw attempts).  That is a good shooting night in the "macro" sense of scoring the basketball.  I would take that ratio of 89 points on 77 shot attempts every day of the season.  I am pretty sure that most coaches and fans would, too.  In fact, what he accomplished used to happen a lot in the "old days" with such great players as Travis Grant from Kentucky State and Pete Maravich from LSU to name just two players that shot the ball more than their teammates combined.  The idea is to score the ball regardless of what system or offense you use and you run your offense through someone regardless.  Running the ball through Lentsch is how Grinnell will score the ball the most successfully this winter even when they likely return to the typical Grinnell College "System."  Look for Lentsch to potentially lead the nation in scoring this winter playing 22-23 minutes per game.  Of course, as I have already said, I would play him 30+ minutes a game if I had the final say.

Consider me unimpressed.  I played with a guy who scored 22 points on 8/9 shooting in 11 minutes.  He scored 35 in 20 minutes on 12/16 shooting.  He scored 40 on 14/18 shooting (including 8/8 from 3) and four games later scored 40 again on 14/25 shooting.

I played with another guy who scored 37 on 13/17 shooting in the Sweet 16.  The same guy scored 30 in the National Championship game on 12/19 shooting.

A few years later, I watched a guy hit 9/11 3's in the conference tournament.

That good players can have games where they score lots of points is a given... but to pour it on against an inferior opponent lacks class, especially when the game isn't in question.

Lentsch had 63 points through 30 minutes... that should have been enough.  Why did he have to play in the last 10 minutes to keep pouring it on?  Those 23 points of his could have been scored by guys who don't see the floor very often.  It was an unsportsmanlike call by Coach A, plain and simple.

[bballer1280]

Those are all good points, PointSpecial.  Your rebuttal was spot on.  Frankly, I agree with your points as well and, in the big picture, I can not argue your points at all.  I, however, was simply pointing out that Lentsch is very good and expect that he will continue to play minutes that normally exceed the Systems typical game plan this season. 

With respect to the fact that you called the actions of the game "classless."  Any reasonable person would agree with you most of the time.  Lentsch should have grabbed a seat for the remainder of the game aroung 6-8 minutes remaining in the game and he would have played about 30 minutes as you have suggested.  That is how I would have coached the game.  However, that is not how it all went down.  Its not the players, including Lentsch's, fault that it happened as it did and I refuse to condemn any of them for the outcome.  Yet, as stated before Lentsch can play.  It takes an amazing athlete to "chuck" as many shots as he took and making as many as he did regardless of opponent.  I do think we will see some point explosions from him again in the future.  I do expect him to play a lot more minutes than anyone else at GC this season as well.

Finally, the stats.  I know others in the history of basketball have had better shooting nights than Lentsch.  I get that.  You are correct.  I played with a guy that went 12 of 13 from the field and 2-2 from the freethrow line scoring 26 points (prior to the 3-point line) in a college game many, many years ago as well and that was about as good of a game played by an individual that I have witnessed.  He played within the system of his team's strategies with great efficiency.  I understand what you are saying.  But, the "macro" analysis of shooting statistics are that a player has shot the ball very well when his total points exceed his total shot attempts (field goals and free throws combined).  That is all I am saying.  Lentsch shot very well on Saturday.  He scored a lot of points, too.  And, he should have. 

[frodotwo]

First, many other NCAA student/athletes besides Lentsch will play 36 minutes or more in games this winter and, in fact, a Grinnellian for the women's team already has (Ashley Jeannin, 38 minutes) to name just one.  This is a coach's decision and the coach made a decision to play Lentsch for 36 minutes.  It is as simple as that.  It doesn't matter what Coach A's motive was.  He is the coach and he has final say.  In fact, all coach's have the final say and all players do as instructed.  That is how it always has been and that is how it always will be in athletics.  In addition, from what I have seen of Lentsch as a player, I would be very tempted to play Lentsch 30+ minutes per game all of the time if I were given the chance as a coach.  The kid can play, he is an awesome player, and he sacrifices a lot to play just 20 minutes in a typical Grinnell College men's basketball game.  He would easily average 30 minutes or more of playing time at most other D3 colleges. 

Nobody is going to begrudge a team or a coach for playing their best player for most, or even all of a game... provided that the game is close.  But when the game becomes a blowout, it's classless... clearly, the starters of the superior team A is better than the starters of team B... that's why team A has jumped out to a 40 point lead.  The outcome of the game is not in question at this point... and if it WOULD begin to be in question, the coach from team A could always put the starters back in.

I have no problem with a team playing the starters for about half the game... the fact of the matter is that, even against inferior opponents, there are lessons that can be learned and work that can be achieved by the players who will play the majority of minutes during other games too.  But once the margin gets to a certain point, especially in the second half, there isn't much of a point to keeping those guys in.  As I said, we already KNOW that they're better... plus, there are guys sitting down at the end of the bench who put in just as much work and don't get as much playing time... those guys really should get a chance for some extended time out on the floor.

Secondly, Lentsch scored 89 points on 77 total shot attempts (field goal attempts plus free throw attempts).  That is a good shooting night in the "macro" sense of scoring the basketball.  I would take that ratio of 89 points on 77 shot attempts every day of the season.  I am pretty sure that most coaches and fans would, too.  In fact, what he accomplished used to happen a lot in the "old days" with such great players as Travis Grant from Kentucky State and Pete Maravich from LSU to name just two players that shot the ball more than their teammates combined.  The idea is to score the ball regardless of what system or offense you use and you run your offense through someone regardless.  Running the ball through Lentsch is how Grinnell will score the ball the most successfully this winter even when they likely return to the typical Grinnell College "System."  Look for Lentsch to potentially lead the nation in scoring this winter playing 22-23 minutes per game.  Of course, as I have already said, I would play him 30+ minutes a game if I had the final say.

Consider me unimpressed.  I played with a guy who scored 22 points on 8/9 shooting in 11 minutes.  He scored 35 in 20 minutes on 12/16 shooting.  He scored 40 on 14/18 shooting (including 8/8 from 3) and four games later scored 40 again on 14/25 shooting.

I played with another guy who scored 37 on 13/17 shooting in the Sweet 16.  The same guy scored 30 in the National Championship game on 12/19 shooting.

A few years later, I watched a guy hit 9/11 3's in the conference tournament.

That good players can have games where they score lots of points is a given... but to pour it on against an inferior opponent lacks class, especially when the game isn't in question.

Lentsch had 63 points through 30 minutes... that should have been enough.  Why did he have to play in the last 10 minutes to keep pouring it on?  Those 23 points of his could have been scored by guys who don't see the floor very often.  It was an unsportsmanlike call by Coach A, plain and simple.

I agree. This is reminiscent of Lincoln University in 2006 when they ran up the score on OSU-Marion 201-78. Sami Wylie scored 69 while hoisting up 41 treys (44 total shots). Of course, he played only 24 minutes of that game (but was in the game at the end still firing up 3's). Their coach later apologized for that unsportsmanlike effort. Odds on hearing the same from Grinnell??  

Looking at the caliber of teams they play outside the MWC for the last several years is like a whose who of "they have a basketball team?". Lindenwood (Bellvue, IL, not the NAIA D1 version) Faith Baptist Bible and Principia last year on their way to a 5-0 NC record against 64-77 competition. In '09-10 they stepped up their competition and went 0-5 against Buena Vista, Aurora, UW-WW, Wheaton and Wm Penn. Let's not forget the Baptist Bible, Manhattan Christian, Waldorf, Simpson, Cal Tech, and Kalamazoo powerhouses either.  Are these the only teams that will play against the "system" or is it a conscious choice to schedule the weak teams?

If this type of offense is meant to level the playing field against other teams who have better talent, then the coach should take a good long look in the mirror (he probably spends enough time there anyway) and decide if alienating other teams and coaches by selfish play is really what he wants, or does he want to promote team play and sportsmanship?

[OBC]

Having Lentsch score 89 points may have an overall negative effect on him as an individual over the course of the season. In that regard it may have been a bad idea. It's already been suggested by one poster that "...I would have put him on his back." Unfortunately, there may be players and coaches out there with the same ideas. Stick around sports long enough and you will find people who believe hurting a player you can't stop is a legitimate strategy. Fortunately they are few.

Anyway, back to reality. Grinnell plays Wartburg tomorrow. Wartburg is a traditionally strong IIAC program, although they are picked to finish middle of the pack this year. A prediction...no player will score over 80 points. It should be a competitive game.

[OBC]

Frank Selvy is best remembered for scoring 100 points in a college game for South Carolina's Furman University against Newberry College on February 13, 1954, the only NCAA Division I player ever to do so. The game was played towards the end of Selvy's final collegiate season, and Furman coach Lyles Alley had designated the game "Frank Selvy Night" in order to garner recognition for the player who was already certain to finish the season leading the nation in scoring and earn first-team All-American honors, two accomplishments he had already attained the year before. The game was the first to be broadcast live on television in South Carolina and a large contingent from Selvy's hometown, including his family, had made the six-hour trek just for the occasion. The instructions from Coach Alley were simply to get the ball to Selvy so he can score as much as possible. Selvy obliged, hitting 41 of 66 field goals and 18 of 22 free throws, his last two points coming on a desperate heave near midcourt at the buzzer. (The game was played well before the introduction of the three-point line; Selvy would later estimate that about a dozen of his shots that day would have been three-pointers today.) (from Wikipedia)

Division 1 Furman beat (currently) Division II Newberry 149-95 that night. Eerily similar to our current discussion.

I haven't found any reports of that game calling coach Alley any names, and history remembers Selvy kindly and generally lauds his performance.

[NEPAFAN]

Just wanted to weigh in with my 2 cents. This was a Bush League move. Principia had 7 players suit up for the game. Take a look at the video on the front page, Grinnell doing their line changes against 7 guys one of which played the entire 40 minutes. C'MON MAN!

[scottie]

Um, guys, football season isn't over yet. Don't forget to cheer on the Scots this Saturday.  (I know Mr. Ypsi will be.  And probably TQ, too, right?) 

p.s.  You're right about the whole Grinnell-record-thing.   

[hopefan]

I saw Grinnell several years ago and was totally impressed with the system when they scored 165 vs Fontbonne....  that they did this against a decent team (SLIAC Conference Champs led by several GOOD seniors) who seemed helpless to stop them that day was really fun to watch (plus they shot lights out)... It was a Grinnell TEAM effort... Long 40, Grotburg 36, Arsenault 28... and the system won the game for them against a better team.

HOWEVER  to do it against Principia who had only 7 guys dressed, and Prin's new coach's debut, just to get an INDIVIDUAL 89 points.....  just not right......  for the first time in my years being familiar with the Grinnell way, I have a wish of seeing the better teams on Grinnell's schedule put it to them ....

[scottie]

.....Do you mean, like this?   

http://espn.go.com/ncb/recap?gameId=223452181