MBB: Midwest Conference

[jeffp]

I really DO understand that you ALL are against what GC has done. BFD. I imagine we'll all live on.

But what is the point in comparing Finlandia and Crossroads to the Washington Generals and calling them "Shlubs"?!??
Mr Ypsi, that's an incredibly disrespectful thing to say about ANY team, much less teams that played their hearts out against "Grinell". You all can say what you want about GC, but why attack programs that aren't around here to defend themselves?

As for the Faith Baptist alum...what right do you have to slam him and what he took away from the game last year? You weren't there, he was.

Absolutely amazing.

[systemfan86]

well, well. It's certainly more entertaining with JeffP back in the saddle. 

Roop, you out there? Between you and Jeff, you can bring back the glory days of this board!

We need Diehardfan as well. And - God help me for saying it - more of LarryU. 

[systemfan86]

Mr Ypsi, where were you when Monmouth beat  a very overmatched Grinnell in football 65 -3? We're not complaining, mind you, we're just playing our game the best we can just like Monmouth did. And St Norbert. And Cornell. No complaints...other than we wish we'd have played better and won.

Play the System; enjoy the System; but don't expect applause when you abuse the System to set totally phony records against 'teams' that were utterly helpless to defend themselves.  I have no doubt that Jack Taylor is a very good player; getting 100+ against 'teams' like Crossroads or CoF does NOT impress me.

This sums up my feelings about all this recognition, plus it casts D3 basketball in a poor light, like we're some sort of silly circus sideshow. And yet, jeffp and the Grinnell faithful wonder why they have trouble getting games...

I think his point about not wanting the distraction of playing a team with an unusual style was more likely the real reason.

[Greek Tragedy]

Jeffp,

Maybe I am misunderstanding The System. Is it designed to feed one person the ball on a consistent basis? Is it a personnel problem? A few years ago it was Bobby Long, John Grotberg and Little A. Has the system then altered because of a lack of skilled players? If so, I might be able to buy into that. If the system has been altered simply because of the opponent or for the sole purpose to break records, that's where I have a problem.

[Greek Tragedy]

well, well. It's certainly more entertaining with JeffP back in the saddle. 

Roop, you out there? Between you and Jeff, you can bring back the glory days of this board!

We need Diehardfan as well. And - God help me for saying it - more of LarryU. 

LarryU, wow! LOL      I do miss The Roop! 

[systemfan86]

And I only care because so many of you blather on about Grinnell's "unsportsmanlike" behavior. I'll defend what they do until it really IS unsportsmanlike.

In other words - never.

If you honestly can't understand how pummeling a hapless opponent for the sake of a record violates generally understood norms of sportsmanship ...

You challenged us to define sportsmanship.  While we haven't done that in specific detail (for this sort of concept, I think proscriptions are much better than giving prescriptions), I'll now give you the reverse challenge - what would Grinnell have to do to EVER have you not defend them?

I'm not a fan of the admitted attempts to achieve records. To put it in a very Grinnell friendly way - it's not organic. And I expect that is what we are hearing from Mr Ypsi and Mr Sager. Records achieved as result of normal game play are considered more acceptable than those achieved because that is the goal.

The acknowledgement is there that scheduling is an issue, and I think the beggers-can't-be-choosers factor is true here. Grinnell, like all other teams, need non-conference games. Since many teams won't agree to play them, they play who they can. That can mean some bad teams and/or teams unprepared for their approach.

I would like to call out that the outlier nature of Grinnell game scores adds to the reaction. Grinnell won by 50 against Crossroads. That difference is 40% of Crossroads point total. On Sunday, Louisville beat Cornell (University) by 45 in a game where CU only scored 54. (BTW, the halftime score was 54-13 and the final was 99-54) Which was a more lopsided win?
Had a Louisville player scored say 45 points in the game would we call that unsportsmanlike? The size of the numbers is a result of the System style and has an impact on the attention it receives. Heck, Taylor's 71 on Friday garnered relatively little attention.

My point here is not to defend. I was the first on the board to call the blowback that was coming. If I was going to attempt a defense, I'd use the 'player coming off an injury who needs to get his shot and stamina back'. But that would be conjecture and trying to put the best possible face on this.

Perhaps the team would be best served by using situations like to find another shooter who can step into the role when Taylor  has a cold shooting night or, god forbid, another injury.   

[systemfan86]

One more comment, then I have to go.

I do struggle with the idea that Grinnell should be expected to slow down when the score is lopsided.

The nature of the style of play is unquestionably up tempo without exception. To ask them to slow down is in someways a request for them to abandon their playbook.

If the purpose of non-conference games is to get a team to work on their game plan - and I think that is one of the goals - how are Grinnell's team members served if they must abandon it? Add to that the need to incorporate 19-20 players into the game plan, and it could be seen as counter productive to have them slow down.

I think lopsided scores against teams unfamiliar and unprepared for up tempo teams is a by product of the style of play. The size of the score magnifies that result and raises the conversation of lack of sportsmanship.

Supporters of that style of play - including Grinnell's supporters - can't help but feel a little...conflicted...when other teams are not expected to abandon their style of play based on the relative magnitude of the score.

[jeffdc]

let's just pause this discussion until Wed night, when GC meets Wartburg. We'll get a better sense of how the current team plays against a reasonably strong opponent.

[Gregory Sager]

First of all, you are intuiting a disrespect that just plain doesn't exist

Not true. When you game-plan to get your guy to the century mark in points, and you even make an announcement to that effect over the P.A. before the game, you're blatantly disrespecting your opponent.

I'm not a fan of the admitted attempts to achieve records. To put it in a very Grinnell friendly way - it's not organic. And I expect that is what we are hearing from Mr Ypsi and Mr Sager. Records achieved as result of normal game play are considered more acceptable than those achieved because that is the goal.

Yes. That's it, entirely.

The acknowledgement is there that scheduling is an issue, and I think the beggers-can't-be-choosers factor is true here. Grinnell, like all other teams, need non-conference games. Since many teams won't agree to play them, they play who they can. That can mean some bad teams and/or teams unprepared for their approach.

I would like to call out that the outlier nature of Grinnell game scores adds to the reaction. Grinnell won by 50 against Crossroads. That difference is 40% of Crossroads point total. On Sunday, Louisville beat Cornell (University) by 45 in a game where CU only scored 54. (BTW, the halftime score was 54-13 and the final was 99-54) Which was a more lopsided win?
Had a Louisville player scored say 45 points in the game would we call that unsportsmanlike? The size of the numbers is a result of the System style and has an impact on the attention it receives. Heck, Taylor's 71 on Friday garnered relatively little attention.

I think that those of us who have followed D3 basketball for awhile have a good feel for how the System affects the scoring margin. As Tom (Greek Tragedy) put it, he mentally divides the margin by two in order to get an approximation of what the final margin would look like in conventional basketball terms. North Park's women's team beat Knox's women's team (which, as I said, utilizes the System) by 60 points on Saturday. Using Tom's method, that's a 30-point win for NPU -- and a 30-point win is not particularly noteworthy.

But, then again, it's not victory margins that are producing all the hubbub here. It's the, as you said, inorganic use of the System to produce records for Jack Taylor that's the source of the problem.

One more comment, then I have to go.

I do struggle with the idea that Grinnell should be expected to slow down when the score is lopsided.

The nature of the style of play is unquestionably up tempo without exception. To ask them to slow down is in someways a request for them to abandon their playbook.

If the purpose of non-conference games is to get a team to work on their game plan - and I think that is one of the goals - how are Grinnell's team members served if they must abandon it? Add to that the need to incorporate 19-20 players into the game plan, and it could be seen as counter productive to have them slow down.

I think lopsided scores against teams unfamiliar and unprepared for up tempo teams is a by product of the style of play. The size of the score magnifies that result and raises the conversation of lack of sportsmanship.

Supporters of that style of play - including Grinnell's supporters - can't help but feel a little...conflicted...when other teams are not expected to abandon their style of play based on the relative magnitude of the score.

That's a good point.

[scottie]

Ugh....    Coming off of football season, this is SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO not the conversation you want greeting you on the basketball board.  So stale!  Crossroads?  CROSSROADS?  Thanks for such a fun way to start the season.    

See y'all in January/February.   

[carletonsid]

Add some major college basketball media members to the list of those who think this act is wrong.

CSB National College Basketball Writer Gregg Doyel: Not easy for Grinnell gunner to score 100-plus, till coach makes it so

If you check on Twitter, a number of other media types are weighing in as well, including the well-respected Fran Fraschilla, former coach at Saint John's (NY), Manhattan and New Mexico.

Nice job by Doyle to make the connection between these "records" and the publishing of The System books.

[AppletonRocks]

At Lawrence, they sell more concessions when GC comes to town, and its openly referred to in Appleton as the Circus.  Don't know if anyone here buys Arsenault's books.  Maybe there should be a banner ad on D3Hoops?   

[Titan Q]

Add some major college basketball media members to the list of those who think this act is wrong.

CSB National College

Great article.

[jeffdc]

I don't know what you guys are smoking if you think Coach A the elder is setting up games to sell his books.

And fyi, it's really Coach A the younger that's coaching the team. If you watched the game, you'd know that.

[ziggy]

I've found myself becoming more upset with what Grinnell does in their record attempts with each passing year. It is becoming increasingly clear to me that "the system" is being used as an excuse to hide behind.

I took a look at Grinnell's season stats for last year and found that no single player averaged 20 or more minutes per game.

A real box score as a result of "the system" looks like this: http://pioneers.grinnell.edu/boxscore.aspx?path=mbball&id=577
Notice the wide distribution of playing time between 13 and 15 minutes per player. No player attempted more than 13 shots.

Then compare that to the box score from just a week earlier in a "record breaking" performance: http://pioneers.grinnell.edu/boxscore.aspx?path=mbball&id=575
Taylor jacks up 108 shots in 36 minutes. If it is all about the system and just trying to win games, why wouldn't that be the pattern we see in conference games?

No, I don't expect Grinnell to slow it down against inferior opponents. However, suggesting this is just the way they play is disingenuous at best and coming from the coach, an all out lie.