MBB: Midwest Conference

[The Roop]

That and free press is free press; whether it's good or bad. I've always said I don't really care what people say about me, just as long as they get the name right. I'm leaning towards Coach A being of a similar mindset.

[jeffdc]

My favorite comment from the dozens on Doyel's article:

"Haters gonna hate. I'd love to see them play"

So true.

[OBC]

Coaches make decisions vis a vis records and players live with them.
I agree with some and not with others. I agree with Bo Ryan's decision last night to return starter Frank Kaminsky to the floor late in a "won game" to allow him to score a school record 43 points. I disagreed with Gino Auriemma's decision to put Nykesha Sales on the floor and conspire with the opposing coach to allow her to score in order to become UCONN's all time (at the time) scorer. I really like the Grinnell system when the traps are working and the team goes on 10-15 point runs with everyone contributing. Personally, I don't agree with a decision to have a player score a national record against a game but overmatched opponent. But hey, that's just me. It's a long season and Karma being what it is, ill will is the only thing that follows.

[WUPHF]

How common is it for Division III schools to pay opponents for games?

[The Roop]

 http://www.troymessenger.com/2012/01/12/20-years-ago-troy-state-258-devry-141/

So which is better, one person ganging up on a lesser team or for the entire team to do it.

[The Roop]

How common is it for Division III schools to pay opponents for games?

About the only time I've ever heard of it is offering a minimal guarantee for tournaments. Typically it's a few hundred dollars along with t-shirts, a post game meal and an All-Tournament Award.

[ziggy]

How common is it for Division III schools to pay opponents for games?

About the only time I've ever heard of it is offering a minimal guarantee for tournaments. Typically it's a few hundred dollars along with t-shirts, a post game meal and an All-Tournament Award.

The d3boards universe has a page for schools seeking to fill tournament spots or single games and it seems like the guarantees typically max out at about $1,000.

[Mr. Ypsi]

http://www.troymessenger.com/2012/01/12/20-years-ago-troy-state-258-devry-141/

So which is better, one person ganging up on a lesser team or for the entire team to do it.

That should be re-phrased, which is worse, since IMO neither is acceptable sportsmanship.  And none of these cases compares to the behavior of John Heisman (yeah, of the horribly inappropriately named Heisman trophy ), who in 1916 forced a school with a signed contract to fulfill the contract even though they had disbanded the football program.  (As Heisman was also the Georgia Tech baseball coach, who had lost badly to Cumberland the previous season.)  Cumberland hastily assembled a make-shift team with no real coach, and Heisman 'gained his revenge' by winning 222-0.

[bballer1280]

Coaches make decisions vis a vis records and players live with them.
I agree with some and not with others. I agree with Bo Ryan's decision last night to return starter Frank Kaminsky to the floor late in a "won game" to allow him to score a school record 43 points. I disagreed with Gino Auriemma's decision to put Nykesha Sales on the floor and conspire with the opposing coach to allow her to score in order to become UCONN's all time (at the time) scorer. I really like the Grinnell system when the traps are working and the team goes on 10-15 point runs with everyone contributing. Personally, I don't agree with a decision to have a player score a national record against a game but overmatched opponent. But hey, that's just me. It's a long season and Karma being what it is, ill will is the only thing that follows.

I believe that the post above clearly captures what many are trying to say on this thread.  Good job.

I thoroughly have read through this thread as it relates to the recent scoring totals of Jack Taylor this season.  I have given a lot of thought to how I feel about how GC has played the System during those games and only now have come to a conclusion regarding my feelings.  I have watched many, many GC games over the years.  Frankly, I think that there is no reason to criticize the System as it is played organically and I think the System is a style that reaches the limits of basketball just as the North Carolina Four Corners did during its time many years ago.  There are numerous ways to play the game with all of them representing potential options worth consideration.  But,  I do not have any reason to support Coach A's attempt to set the records when the method used to set those records, even though it resembles the System's methodology, is not really a reflection of how the team ordinarily plays by allowing one player to play substantially more minutes during a game than is typically the case and by allowing one player to take substantially a larger percentage of the team's shots than is normally the case.  The 138 point record and what obviously was another attempt to beat that record on Sunday really is not some thing anyone who supports Grinnell College academically or athletically can say reflects the college's philosophy when all variables are considered.  Record setting moments can both be proud moments and infamous moments.  I'm really not of the belief that the record setting efforts represented by Jack Taylor's scoring efforts both this season and last are proud moments for individuals that support this amazing place known as Grinnell College.

Past GC players, Clements and Lensch in particular, have been mentioned in this thread.  I believe that their scoring efforts and even Taylor's scoring outburst in this season's first game represented production that did not really vary from the normal System approach by very much.  But, the 138 point effort from last season and the 109 point effort on Sunday were attempts to score points outside of the System's normal approach with unexplainably higher levels of playing time and percentage of shots taken by Taylor.  Frankly, I don't like that approach so much nor the lack of what is considered to be acceptable demonstrations of sportsmanship.

I will, however, defend Taylor in this entire set of events because he is only "the player."  He is being coached to play his role in Coach A's "theatre in the round."  The other players on the team are in similar positions.  All are at the mercy of Coach A's desire to play the System the way he has chosen to do so in the attempted record setting games.  No player can possibly object without "catching the wrath" of their coach.  So, I can not put any blame for how those games played out for Taylor or his teammates.

With all of that said, I believe that this season's version of Grinnell College mens basketball will have more high scoring efforts from Taylor because the team does not have as many scoring options as they have had in the past.  Taylor will play larger minute totals and he will average easily over 30 points per game when the season concludes.  GC lost some outstanding seniors from last season's team and that scoring void will not be made up by the team's underclassmen quickly this year.

My opinion only.

[AO]

http://www.troymessenger.com/2012/01/12/20-years-ago-troy-state-258-devry-141/

So which is better, one person ganging up on a lesser team or for the entire team to do it.

Neither.  The common factors are a severely outnumbered/over-matched opponent and a stated goal of breaking the record.   If you're going to play a bad team with no hope of beating the last 8 guys on your bench, give your first 10 guys the night off.

[WUPHF]

+1 for the answers to my question and to that last post from the Grinnell fan.

[jeffdc]

at the risk of extending this conversation - I wonder what the reaction would be if GC had done the same thing, but with Knox (a perennial bottom dweller in MWC) as the opponent? Would everyone still be as upset?

[AndOne]

I've seen several instances of teams paying out a guarantee in the $1,000-$1,200 range for, as Roop indicated, tournament games. But tournament games only, not single games. In addition to a meal, all tourney award plaques, and T-shirts, tournament hosting teams also often pay for hotel rooms for incoming teams. I think the number of rooms most often paid for by the host team is 6.
Normally only DI teams, possibly some D2s, pay D3 schools to come in and usually act as a punching bag for the big boys. I'm only familiar with payouts by D1 schools like Northern Illinois, not teams like Wisconsin or Illinois. In NIU's case, I've heard of them paying a D3 as much as $4,000 or $5,000.

[The Roop]

I believe Augustana got an $8,000 guarantee when they played Gonzaga a couple years ago.

[The Roop]

at the risk of extending this conversation - I wonder what the reaction would be if GC had done the same thing, but with Knox (a perennial bottom dweller in MWC) as the opponent? Would everyone still be as upset?

As you took the risk, I'll take the bait. This happened several years ago when Grinnell doubled up a conference opponent 152-76. I didn't mean to start a 3 day debate on the subject but I did. Short version is you can do that in your own Holiday Tournament but not to a fellow member of the conference. Not sure I remember the other team in question but I'll bet scottie does