MBB: Midwest Conference

[The Roop]

I'm not sure you can ™ The Streak already having scottiesightings ™. I guess we'll have to wait on a MavMoment ™ for interpretation.

[Gregory Sager]

Sure! That's a GREAT idea! Petition to the IIAC for us will you? Let them deal with all the messy statistical machinations that are apparently needed to understand Grinnell victory margins

Right. Because dividing by two is so messy.

[jeffp]

No. Not messy at all. EXCEPT...then you have every team in the conference besides maybe Knox and Monmouth (using last years' statistics) that have 2 games a year where they score 10 -20 points or more BELOW their season averages which skews things the other way, which means the games still don' t fit perfectly into the perfect world of basketball and...and...or maybe you just have to say Grinnell plays the best DEFENSE in the league instead of scoring the most points in the league and we all know Grinnell doesn't PLAY defense so...so...

[jeffp]

"BUT" you say, we are talking about margin of victory. OK, Let's look at St Norbert and Grinnell, who finished 1st and 2nd in the regular season in 2012-2013.
Grinnell's average margin of victory in conference games (inc. losses and tourney) is 15.78 points; 12.94 points if you throw out the hi/lo.
St Norbert's average margin of victory in conference games(inc. losses and tourney) is 13.3 points; 13.38 points if you throw out the hi/lo.

So, why do you need to divide by anything to get a reasonable understanding of margin of victory -especially in comparison to the other top team in the conference season standings?

[jeffp]

Saturday, I have the extreme good fortune to attend my Grandson and oldest Granddaughter's basketball games. That means I'll be missing the Grinnell vs St Norbert game. Really hopin' for a win here.....

Best of luck to everyone in the MWC...'cept St Norbert of course!

[Gregory Sager]

"BUT" you say, we are talking about margin of victory. OK, Let's look at St Norbert and Grinnell, who finished 1st and 2nd in the regular season in 2012-2013.
Grinnell's average margin of victory in conference games (inc. losses and tourney) is 15.78 points; 12.94 points if you throw out the hi/lo.
St Norbert's average margin of victory in conference games(inc. losses and tourney) is 13.3 points; 13.38 points if you throw out the hi/lo.

So, why do you need to divide by anything to get a reasonable understanding of margin of victory -especially in comparison to the other top team in the conference season standings?

The purpose is to get System margins to correspond to the margins typical of normal basketball. That's all. What Tom (Greek Tragedy) proposes is something to be used as a reference tool for casual comparisons, not as an official statistical modifier that would appear on any formal stat sheet (whether it's the stat sheets of the schools in question, the leagues, or the NCAA). It's an informal way of comparing final scores across widely disparate forms of basketball.

[The Roop]

11-2 run to close out the half. Americas Team 37 Good Guys 31.

[The Roop]

 2 blown layups in the final minute, 1 which would have sent it to over time. Good Guys 82 Americas Team 79. Both Streaks continue.

[systemfan86]

As a reference to the problem some Grinnell fans have with the charges of unsportsmanlike play, margin of victory, and quality of opponent, I give you a score that just ran across the bottom of ESPN

#21 Michigan 107, Houston Baptist 53

HBU has 2500 students - the size of Carroll University - so we don't have schools of similar stature.
Doubt anyone will get upset by this game. So the vitriol for Grinnell seems odd to us.

Just sayin.

[Titan Q]

As a reference to the problem some Grinnell fans have with the charges of unsportsmanlike play, margin of victory, and quality of opponent, I give you a score that just ran across the bottom of ESPN

#21 Michigan 107, Houston Baptist 53

HBU has 2500 students - the size of Carroll University - so we don't have schools of similar stature.
Doubt anyone will get upset by this game. So the vitriol for Grinnell seems odd to us.

Just sayin.

The vitriol is typically around Grinnell orchestrating individual scoring records against horrendous basketball teams.

[AppletonRocks]

As a reference to the problem some Grinnell fans have with the charges of unsportsmanlike play, margin of victory, and quality of opponent, I give you a score that just ran across the bottom of ESPN

#21 Michigan 107, Houston Baptist 53

HBU has 2500 students - the size of Carroll University - so we don't have schools of similar stature.
Doubt anyone will get upset by this game. So the vitriol for Grinnell seems odd to us.

Just sayin.

The vitriol is typically around Grinnell orchestrating individual scoring records against horrendous basketball teams.

True dat.

[wnc52]

As a reference to the problem some Grinnell fans have with the charges of unsportsmanlike play, margin of victory, and quality of opponent, I give you a score that just ran across the bottom of ESPN

#21 Michigan 107, Houston Baptist 53

HBU has 2500 students - the size of Carroll University - so we don't have schools of similar stature.
Doubt anyone will get upset by this game. So the vitriol for Grinnell seems odd to us.

Just sayin.

Yeah, that's really not even close to an apples-to-apples comparison...

[jeffp]

St Norbert 121
Grinnell 115

Looks like the difference might have been at the foul line with Norby scoring 35 of 47 attempts and GC 20 of 26; Grinnell with 35 fouls and Norby with 22. After a cursory look at previous games I think this is the biggest spread of the season in PF's. for Grinnell. Pioneer shooting % was a bit off in the 2nd, but was within winning parameters while Norby shot 66%, a nice, but not staggering clip. Looks like the 'neers finally got caught by the new handcheck rule interpretation, but I'd like to hear from someone who was actually there. Jeffdc? OBC?
Anyway, closer than I thought it might have been.

[jeffp]

 Gregory, you lost me there. In the first part of your statement you say, "The purpose is to get System MARGINS to compare to the margins typical of normal basketball." You close your paragraph with, " It's an informal way of comparing FINAL SCORES across widely disparate forms of basketball." If it is the latter, maybe it helps sorta kinda (I guess?) but if it is the margin you are trying to compare it still seems to be an unnecessary statistical contrivance based on the actual margin point differentials between St Norbert and Grinnell last year. I'm not gonna do the leg work (watching the unbelievably torrid pace of both 5th grade and 7th grade hoops has worn me out today  ), but I wonder if the margin PERCENTAGE in comparison to other games might actually be lower in System ball.  Any takers?

I'm not trying to be a smarta** (for once); I do realize that several of you are making a serious attempt to understand how system ball affects end results, and I'm not trying to denigrate your efforts, especially since - as Gregory points out, those attempts (no matter how serious) are quite informal.

[systemfan86]

As a reference to the problem some Grinnell fans have with the charges of unsportsmanlike play, margin of victory, and quality of opponent, I give you a score that just ran across the bottom of ESPN

#21 Michigan 107, Houston Baptist 53

HBU has 2500 students - the size of Carroll University - so we don't have schools of similar stature.
Doubt anyone will get upset by this game. So the vitriol for Grinnell seems odd to us.

Just sayin.

Yeah, that's really not even close to an apples-to-apples comparison...

I'll allow the clarification that the issue has more to do with records than opponents, but IF the issue is opponents and margin of victory, then you are right that it not even close to an apples to apples in the sense that Grinnell is much closer competitively to Crossroads Baptist than Michigan is to Houston Baptist.

Grinnell is not the defending NCAA tournament runner up.