MBB: Midwest Conference

[Gregory Sager]

Not really. The Bluejays were already going to be regionally ranked in the final ranking, regardless of the outcome of tonight's CCIW tourney title game.

Elmhurst will probably climb a few spots in the ranking, but not enough to make a difference for SNC.

Refs took over this one early in the second half.

Good thing you can be ranked in the top 20 all season and it becomes meaningless since you have to have so many at large bids allotted for 7th place teams out East.

Ripon will get eviscerated in the tourney. Fun times!

I know that you're just posting to air your sour grapes, but you really ought to learn a thing or two about how the D3 tournament operates if you're going to be a Green Knights fan. SNC is a solid program that contends for a D3 tourney spot on an annual basis, and that's not likely to change when St. Norbert moves to the NACC.

[TheGreenKnight920]

Not really. The Bluejays were already going to be regionally ranked in the final ranking, regardless of the outcome of tonight's CCIW tourney title game.

Elmhurst will probably climb a few spots in the ranking, but not enough to make a difference for SNC.

Refs took over this one early in the second half.

Good thing you can be ranked in the top 20 all season and it becomes meaningless since you have to have so many at large bids allotted for 7th place teams out East.

Ripon will get eviscerated in the tourney. Fun times!

I know that you're just posting to air your sour grapes, but you really ought to learn a thing or two about how the D3 tournament operates if you're going to be a Green Knights fan. SNC is a solid program that contends for a D3 tourney spot on an annual basis, and that's not likely to change when St. Norbert moves to the NACC.

I know exactly how D3 operates, I've followed the school since I was 8. Merely by virtue of their conference, the Knights have no real shot at an at-large bid, ever. Hell, even about 6 years ago when they had one regular season loss to John Carroll, they weren't even a lock for an at-large. I know the MWC is a pretty poor conference in general, but to never give any team the benefit of the doubt is absurd. Even this year, SNC played a solid non conference slate, yet you knew from the get-go that unless they went undefeated in the regular season, they had to win their conference tournament to get to the dance. One day that won't be the case, hopefully, but I'm not holding my breath. It'll be the same, year after year.

[gbpuckfan]

21 at large bids, right? 

On the tourney tracker I count maybe 15 listed as getting in. Although the WIAC seems to be missing that could be one or two more. Does SNC lose comparisons to each of the other 3-5?

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

SNC's definitely going to be in the mix for Pool C.

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

21 at large bids, right? 

On the tourney tracker I count maybe 15 listed as getting in. Although the WIAC seems to be missing that could be one or two more. Does SNC lose comparisons to each of the other 3-5?

20 Pool C bids and 1 Pool B bid (likely Wesley).

[TheGreenKnight920]

SNC's definitely going to be in the mix for Pool C.

I've read this story before. The bids never come this way, they stay out East or in the CCIW.

I appreciate the optimism, though.

[Gregory Sager]

Not really. The Bluejays were already going to be regionally ranked in the final ranking, regardless of the outcome of tonight's CCIW tourney title game.

Elmhurst will probably climb a few spots in the ranking, but not enough to make a difference for SNC.

Refs took over this one early in the second half.

Good thing you can be ranked in the top 20 all season and it becomes meaningless since you have to have so many at large bids allotted for 7th place teams out East.

Ripon will get eviscerated in the tourney. Fun times!

I know that you're just posting to air your sour grapes, but you really ought to learn a thing or two about how the D3 tournament operates if you're going to be a Green Knights fan. SNC is a solid program that contends for a D3 tourney spot on an annual basis, and that's not likely to change when St. Norbert moves to the NACC.

I know exactly how D3 operates, I've followed the school since I was 8. Merely by virtue of their conference, the Knights have no real shot at an at-large bid, ever.
Hell, even about 6 years ago when they had one regular season loss to John Carroll, they weren't even a lock for an at-large. I know the MWC is a pretty poor conference in general, but to never give any team the benefit of the doubt is absurd.

You claim to "know exactly how D3 operates," and then disprove it in the same paragraph. There is no "benefit of the doubt" operating in how the national committee does its work -- or the eight regional committees, for that matter. It's all about numbers, not "benefit of the doubt" or lack thereof. There's a sound reason why the MWC has rarely ever received a Pool C berth in the tourney, and it has nothing to do with the subjectivity within the committee that you're implying. It's strictly because the annual weakness of the league in non-conference play drags down everybody's strength of schedule, including that of the team that is best positioned to be a Pool C candidate, and the fact that 18 of each MWC team's 25 games are played against opponents who are rarely, if ever, regionally ranked (because of that same low-SoS reason) hampers the MWC's Pool C candidates in a second primary criterion.

Even this year, SNC played a solid non conference slate, yet you knew from the get-go that unless they went undefeated in the regular season, they had to win their conference tournament to get to the dance.

SNC tends to play a solid non-conference slate every year, because Gary Grzesk understands the situation and schedules accordingly. November and December are the times for perennially strong programs in weak leagues -- a category that includes the likes of Benedictine, Lancaster Bible, Albertus Magnus, PSU-Behrend, etc., as well as St. Norbert -- to boost their SoS and their potential vRRO. Some programs, such as PSU-Behrend, elect not to schedule strategically and therefore just put all of their eggs in one basket, which means winning their conference tourney. Others, such as SNC, schedule strategically, knowing that they might take a few extra losses before New Year's Day but that it will position them better for conference play (because they will have already gained the experience of playing the toughest opponents they'll face during the entire regular season) and augment whatever chances they have to get regionally ranked.

SNC made that philosophy work well this season. The Green Knights did lose to Benedictine and Elmhurst, but they beat UWEC and UW-Oshkosh, building a vRRO résumé and boosting the SoS without seriously damaging their winning percentage. They, and the man who laid out that schedule for them, are to be applauded for how well they've done what they needed to do, given the circumstances that are dictated to good teams within the MWC by the league's overall weakness.

One day that won't be the case, hopefully, but I'm not holding my breath. It'll be the same, year after year.

There's only one way that this changes, and it has nothing to do with national or regional committees and their decisions. It has to do with the MWC. The league's teams simply need to start winning more non-conference games than they lose. It's that simple.

[Gregory Sager]

I should add that, at this moment, the numbers-crunchers over in the multi-regional rooms are indicating that SNC has a pretty decent shot at a Pool C berth this season.

[TheGreenKnight920]

Not really. The Bluejays were already going to be regionally ranked in the final ranking, regardless of the outcome of tonight's CCIW tourney title game.

Elmhurst will probably climb a few spots in the ranking, but not enough to make a difference for SNC.

Refs took over this one early in the second half.

Good thing you can be ranked in the top 20 all season and it becomes meaningless since you have to have so many at large bids allotted for 7th place teams out East.

Ripon will get eviscerated in the tourney. Fun times!

I know that you're just posting to air your sour grapes, but you really ought to learn a thing or two about how the D3 tournament operates if you're going to be a Green Knights fan. SNC is a solid program that contends for a D3 tourney spot on an annual basis, and that's not likely to change when St. Norbert moves to the NACC.

I know exactly how D3 operates, I've followed the school since I was 8. Merely by virtue of their conference, the Knights have no real shot at an at-large bid, ever.
Hell, even about 6 years ago when they had one regular season loss to John Carroll, they weren't even a lock for an at-large. I know the MWC is a pretty poor conference in general, but to never give any team the benefit of the doubt is absurd.

You claim to "know exactly how D3 operates," and then disprove it in the same paragraph. There is no "benefit of the doubt" operating in how the national committee does its work -- or the eight regional committees, for that matter. It's all about numbers, not "benefit of the doubt" or lack thereof. There's a sound reason why the MWC has rarely ever received a Pool C berth in the tourney, and it has nothing to do with the subjectivity within the committee that you're implying. It's strictly because the annual weakness of the league in non-conference play drags down everybody's strength of schedule, including that of the team that is best positioned to be a Pool C candidate, and the fact that 18 of each MWC team's 25 games are played against opponents who are rarely, if ever, regionally ranked (because of that same low-SoS reason) hampers the MWC's Pool C candidates in a second primary criterion.

Even this year, SNC played a solid non conference slate, yet you knew from the get-go that unless they went undefeated in the regular season, they had to win their conference tournament to get to the dance.

SNC tends to play a solid non-conference slate every year, because Gary Grzesk understands the situation and schedules accordingly. November and December are the times for perennially strong programs in weak leagues -- a category that includes the likes of Benedictine, Lancaster Bible, Albertus Magnus, PSU-Behrend, etc., as well as St. Norbert -- to boost their SoS and their potential vRRO. Some programs, such as PSU-Behrend, elect not to schedule strategically and therefore just put all of their eggs in one basket, which means winning their conference tourney. Others, such as SNC, schedule strategically, knowing that they might take a few extra losses before New Year's Day but that it will position them better for conference play (because they will have already gained the experience of playing the toughest opponents they'll face during the entire regular season) and augment whatever chances they have to get regionally ranked.

SNC made that philosophy work well this season. The Green Knights did lose to Benedictine and Elmhurst, but they beat UWEC and UW-Oshkosh, building a vRRO résumé and boosting the SoS without seriously damaging their winning percentage. They, and the man who laid out that schedule for them, are to be applauded for how well they've done what they needed to do, given the circumstances that are dictated to good teams within the MWC by the league's overall weakness.

One day that won't be the case, hopefully, but I'm not holding my breath. It'll be the same, year after year.

There's only one way that this changes, and it has nothing to do with national or regional committees and their decisions. It has to do with the MWC. The league's teams simply need to start winning more non-conference games than they lose. It's that simple.

I didn't disprove anything I said. What I'm getting at is that regardless of whomever SNC schedules in the non conference portion of the schedule, the MWC being not good penalizes them, no matter how much of a good faith effort they make to play a good non conference slate. They also have the misfortune of not being in proximity to other good schools, so scheduling tough teams becomes difficult.

[Gregory Sager]

I didn't disprove anything I said.

You did. You brought it all down to the Green Knights not getting "the benefit of the doubt," when that is not an element of the selection process that is a factor. It implies a subjectivity on the part of the committee that simply isn't there. Yes, they have to sort out different data sets and compare teams that are widely geographically disparate and almost never have any direct connections in terms of common opponents, but numbers are numbers.

What I'm getting at is that regardless of whomever SNC schedules in the non conference portion of the schedule, the MWC being not good penalizes them, no matter how much of a good faith effort they make to play a good non conference slate.

That's absolutely correct. It is blindingly obvious to everybody who follows the D3 national scene that St. Norbert is a good program that is hampered by its league. Being a member of the MWC penalizes St. Norbert in the sense that the Green Knights are forced to play three-quarters of their schedule within a league filled with teams that drag down SNC's numbers in the SoS and vRRO criteria. Instead of directing your ire at the national committee, you should be directing it at all of the MWC programs that don't do well in November and December outside the circuit.

They also have the misfortune of not being in proximity to other good schools, so scheduling tough teams becomes difficult.

Nobody's going to feel sorry for SNC. Every school has its challenges. Besides, there are plenty of good schools within driving distance for SNC to play every year. Heck, Gary Grzesk proves that with each new SNC slate that comes out.

[TheGreenKnight920]

I didn't say anyone had to feel sorry for anyone. There's always the argument that "the numbers don't lie" in terms of SOS and record vs RRO, etc.. but every year there's always surprising pool C bids that don't always hold up in terms of "the numbers." In that respect, yes, it does come down to subjectivity, and reputation of a conference/locale certainly come into play, you would be lying if you told me they don't. If everything was purely numbers, we would know exactly who the pool C bids were right away.

[Gregory Sager]

I didn't say anyone had to feel sorry for anyone. There's always the argument that "the numbers don't lie" in terms of SOS and record vs RRO, etc.. but every year there's always surprising pool C bids that don't always hold up in terms of "the numbers."

I completely disagree. There are always arguments to be made for and against the last few choices -- and, really, we're talking only about the back end of the Pool C selection process, perhaps three picks at most but usually only one or two -- but the basis upon which those picks were made is always justifiable. If you go back through the archives of the Pool C room from year to year, for instance, you'll never find any mass outrage about Team A getting picked when Team B clearly deserved the bid. It simply doesn't happen. There's disagreements over the comparative merits of the teams that got picked versus the teams that shouldn't have gotten picked, but it's never a case of a team getting in that doesn't hold up in terms of the numbers.

In that respect, yes, it does come down to subjectivity,

That's a different kind of subjectivity, one that's based upon which criterion or criteria the committee of that year happens to be emphasizing the most, than the "benefit of the doubt" kind of subjectivity that you've posited here.

and reputation of a conference/locale certainly come into play, you would be lying if you told me they don't.

No, it doesn't, and, no, I am not lying.

The MWC's reputation has absolutely no bearing upon anything. It's the MWC's proven track record in terms of the criteria -- the fact that the conference as a whole does poorly in non-conference play, dragging down the SoS and vRRo of its better teams -- that has a bearing on the process as far as SNC is concerned.

And locale has nothing to do with anything in terms of being a subjective influence upon the committee.

If everything was purely numbers, we would know exactly who the pool C bids were right away.

No, we wouldn't, because there's too many variables. Even the master bean-counters of d3boards.com, Matt Snyder and Drew Pasteur, cannot say with any certitude who will be positioned where when the national committee lines up the various regional rankings on Selection Day ... and Matt and Drew would be the first ones to admit that. Remember, we're talking about five different primary criteria that come into play, plus the various secondary criteria if they get beyond that, all complicated by the fact that D3's emphasis upon local competition and the simple cost-effectiveness of playing most of your games close to home to accommodate a limited D3 athletics budget means that there's very little crossver between most regions. Throw in the fact that there's eight teams from all across the country that are considered simultaneously in each round of Pool C picks, and the answer is clear: The fact that it's a numbers-based selection system does not mean that we can all know ahead of time who'll get in via Pool C.

[cubs]

A couple of MWC vs MIAC match-ups to open the tournament...

Ripon at St. John's and St. Norbert vs St. Thomas at Platteville.

[Gregory Sager]

Given what has happened to MIAC teams on the opening weekend over the past few seasons, this is a golden opportunity for the MWC to make some noise on Friday night.

[Greek Tragedy]

The MWC isn't the UMAC.