MBB: Midwest Conference

[Gregory Sager]

No, but the Green Knights are arguably better than what usually comes out of the UMAC.

Can't speak for Ripon, as I haven't seen the Red Hawks this season.

[Greek Tragedy]

Tell SJU fans that. LOL 

[gbpuckfan]

That's RIPE-uhn...

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

Silence since SNC was selected as an at-large team ... not surprised.

[TheGreenKnight920]

Silence since SNC was selected as an at-large team ... not surprised.

Nice quip!

First time for everything, I suppose. My reason for pessimism was/is not unfounded. You literally pointed out on the podcast how the metrics, such as vRRO and SOS, tend to favor NESCAC teams, etc..

There could easily have been a run of NE teams, as well as a bizarre shakeup in the Central rankings (which did happen!) that could have left the Knights on the outside looking in. For once, they were on the right side of things. Past history would have suggested otherwise. Don't act like you knew without a doubt how things would shake out.

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

Silence since SNC was selected as an at-large team ... not surprised.

Nice quip!

First time for everything, I suppose. My reason for pessimism was/is not unfounded. You literally pointed out on the podcast how the metrics, such as vRRO and SOS, tend to favor NESCAC teams, etc..

There could easily have been a run of NE teams, as well as a bizarre shakeup in the Central rankings (which did happen!) that could have left the Knights on the outside looking in. For once, they were on the right side of things. Past history would have suggested otherwise. Don't act like you knew without a doubt how things would shake out.

Hmm ... when did I say it tends to favor NESCAC teams? That has been the complaint, for sure ... I haven't fully bought in on that. But there has been complaints and speculation. However, that isn't the reason SNC has been left home in the past ... because usually SNC is buried behind other Central Region teams to be honest. I am not sure SNC has been at the "table" with any serious chance at an at-large until more recently. That's because of their resume ... not the NESCAC or any perception that some how east coast teams are taking bids away (which they are not; the Atlantic Region, for one, is one that usually hardly gets Pool C bids; East Region doesn't tend to get many, either).

The Central Rankings didn't change much because there were a ton of losses ... had there been a number of wins, SNC (assuming a loss) would have ended up at the table pretty quick. What shakeup are you talking about exactly? The rankings were nearly identical - outside of Elmhurst moving up - to the previous week.

I was pretty sure SNC was in the tournament this season.

[TheGreenKnight920]

Silence since SNC was selected as an at-large team ... not surprised.

Nice quip!

First time for everything, I suppose. My reason for pessimism was/is not unfounded. You literally pointed out on the podcast how the metrics, such as vRRO and SOS, tend to favor NESCAC teams, etc..

There could easily have been a run of NE teams, as well as a bizarre shakeup in the Central rankings (which did happen!) that could have left the Knights on the outside looking in. For once, they were on the right side of things. Past history would have suggested otherwise. Don't act like you knew without a doubt how things would shake out.

Hmm ... when did I say it tends to favor NESCAC teams? That has been the complaint, for sure ... I haven't fully bought in on that. But there has been complaints and speculation. However, that isn't the reason SNC has been left home in the past ... because usually SNC is buried behind other Central Region teams to be honest. I am not sure SNC has been at the "table" with any serious chance at an at-large until more recently. That's because of their resume ... not the NESCAC or any perception that some how east coast teams are taking bids away (which they are not; the Atlantic Region, for one, is one that usually hardly gets Pool C bids; East Region doesn't tend to get many, either).

The Central Rankings didn't change much because there were a ton of losses ... had there been a number of wins, SNC (assuming a loss) would have ended up at the table pretty quick. What shakeup are you talking about exactly? The rankings were nearly identical - outside of Elmhurst moving up - to the previous week.

I was pretty sure SNC was in the tournament this season.

On the podcast you said that those metrics tend to favor NESCAC teams. I suppose it could favor the other power conference teams in the same way.

The shakeup I was referencing was Benedictine being above SNC (they won the head to head, so I suppose rightfully so) but ahead of other worthy teams like WashU, as well. Things like that can create log jams in the selection process, which you and your team referenced. I recognize the selection process is never going to be perfect. That said, I feel like certain conferences get preference when it comes to all the variables, even when resumes are nearly indistinguishable. Like I said, first time for everything, and maybe the criteria the committee emphasizes will be in flux (which it seems to be), but you can hardly blame a fan of what I would call a low-major (in a low tier conference, anyway) team in D3 being skeptical of how things play out every year.

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

I believe I said in a question about SOS numbers in the WIAC ... that the complaints have been in the past that the SOS numbers favor the NESCAC. I didn't say they actually do. I was describing the fact that they don't have a double-round-robin and thus the SOS number doesn't traditionally fall towards .500 as it does in most conferences. I did not indicate that it DOES favor the NESCAC.

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

I think when most people tell you SNC is safe this year and you tell them it can't be right. And dispute the reasons given to you why SNC struggles to be a Pool C bid. You seemed to want to come up with conspiracies (like favoring conferences, which I don't think happens at all - that is the ole boys network we saw on display a lot in the old days).

Sure ... I can understand you are pessimistic that SNC gets a bid due to the history of falling short. I just can't buy into the rest.

[TheGreenKnight920]

I think when most people tell you SNC is safe this year and you tell them it can't be right. And dispute the reasons given to you why SNC struggles to be a Pool C bid. You seemed to want to come up with conspiracies (like favoring conferences, which I don't think happens at all - that is the ole boys network we saw on display a lot in the old days).

Sure ... I can understand you are pessimistic that SNC gets a bid due to the history of falling short. I just can't buy into the rest.

Who is everyone? The two D3 basketball twitter accounts that thought SNC had at least a shot? I don't know if I would say I'm coming up with conspiracy theories, more so correctly pointing out how metrics tend to favor certain areas in terms of being able to stack favorable games for at-large bids, which you've said happens.

[gbpuckfan]

Not to jump into someone else's argument here, but because the conference tracker said something along the lines of the MWC likely being a one bid league to the metrics, it doesn't add to the optimism. I don't know who wrote that. That despite SNC ranked being higher regionally, IIRC, than some of the WIAC or other  schools who were listed as on the bubble

But at one point, that tracker had about 16 teams listed for an at large with 20 spots available.

[Pat Coleman]

Actually, what it said was based on the convoluted Central Region rankings ... and they only got more convoluted on Sunday. But the tracker is all on me. Dave doesn't write that.

Indeed, fewer than 20 were listed, because upsets always come, as they did on Sunday, for example.

[gbpuckfan]

Thanks for the clarification.

I get it. MWC teams control their own destiny. SNC needed to win not to worry.

But I don't recall the tracker making the same suggestion for other conferences in the region and what it might do their at large hopes. If That happened, my apologies. SNC was 6th in the rankings and wasn't mentioned by name as being an at large hopeful. But I think LaCrosse was, and would have been the fourth WIAC team picked, and I don't think showed up ahead of SNC any week

Now, I certainly understand where the MWC is in relationship to the mighty WIAC. We see it all the time. And that's fine. I guess my point is - and I don't want to appear as thin skinned because I fully understand the MWC's drawbacks - that when things like that happen, it just may appear to some  as, basically, getting no benefit of the doubt.

But as has been noted, SNC beat four WIAC schools - and almost beat UWGB, for that matter, and had some losses to other good schools. This wasn't Lawrence playing Marantha Baptist in football.

And, to be fair, I also appreciate that you are doing rundowns of so many teams and conferences. I don't think there was any intentional shade being thrown our way. But for those looking to be slighted, maybe items like that just add a little fuel to the fire.

Finally, this isn't football. We know that two MWC teams would need to both beat St Thomas and Whitewater, be in different divisions, go undefeated, have one lose in a close title game, Pluto be restored as a planet, and a few other things fall in our favor to get at an large bid. So, when it is a sport where we might actually get two teams in, I think maybe it takes in added significance. At least to MWC fans.

[gbpuckfan]

Oh, and can you explain what was convoluted about the regions rankings? What seemed out of sorts?

[Pat Coleman]

Oh, and can you explain what was convoluted about the regions rankings? What seemed out of sorts?

Benedictine hanging onto its spot above North Central and remaining high despite loss after loss, and St. Norbert being buried with at least one more at-large team in between. It just spoke to me of a misordering that could affect teams on Sunday night.

As it turned out in our mock, even with misordering, there was enough room to get all of those teams in.