MBB: Midwest Conference

[Greek Tragedy]

Speaking of Grinnell...the Milwaukee Journal/Sentinel has an article on the MWC race.

Old School, you mean to tell me you'd take Grotberg over 10 players in the WIAC alone? C'mon

I have no idea what you are getting at.  Yes, I could name 10 WIAC players that I would take Grotberg over (I guess this means I find 10 guys who don't play at all?)  Anyway, I don't understand what you are asking here.

I KNOW GRINNELL PLAYS DEFENSE!!!!

The point is STATISTICALLY, it will show that they are among the WORST defensive teams in the country giving up nearly 110 points a game.  My whole agrument revolves around how inflated the statistics are and how they DON't tell the true story.

So they give up 110 a game.  Yeah.  3rd in the nation in steals.  There isn't a stat for "forced turnovers" a game, but I'm sure Grinnell would be up there.  The MWC page has them at forcing 28 a game, though I'd thought they would have more than 20 assists a game.

Wow, I'm defending Grinnell...what's this world come to? lol 

[RiponRed34]

Alright, I'm done.  I guess I have no point here.  Next time I'll just bite my tongue...seriously

[Greek Tragedy]

Don't be so poopy.  We can all have our opinion and this is what the board is for.  I still don't understand your WIAC player reference.  What did you mean?

And yes, Grotberg is a pre-season all-american.

[RiponRed34]

I point was, he is a preseaon all-american.  Is he really one of the top 25 talents in the country?  My reference to you was wouldn't you take atleast 10 players from the WIAC ahead Grotberg alone.  Meaning aren't there 10 players that are better then Grotberg just in the WIAC conference alone let alone the entire country?  Becker was never a preseason all-american...and there's no comparison there.

But whatever, this is getting out of hand.  The argument started in reference to being a top 5 player in the MWC.  I just wanted to make a point that Grinnell's stats don't tell the whole story whether it be on offense or defense.  There are a lot of players that don't play much in the mwc, that if had the chance, could average over 20 points a game if they could shoot that much.

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

That's a tough one to call.  I certainly don't think this is the year for him to move up to the first team.

And I don't have a ton of exposure with which to judge, but I did see him play on the same floor as the national Player of the Year last year.

As a freshman, he didn't measure up to the Senior Bopper, but in my estimation, Grotberg was the second best player on the floor.

I was a bit surprised at his pre-season AA status, but not so much that it was a shock.  He's good and he's only going to get better.

If he was in another system he probably wouldn't get 30ppg, but he might have a chance to show off some of his other talents that get overlooked in the system in which he plays.

I think ultimately we're all in agreement here on one thing: we shouldn't go solely on stats when ranking players.  The disagreement comes in our evaluation of Grotberg as an individual talent.  I'm ok if we disagree there.

[The Roop]

Game friggin on....................... And I'm not hating Ripon this time. Rather my employer has displeased The Roop.

Seems we have an obscure company policy that says you have to schedule vacation 15 days in advance to have a Saturday qualify for overtime pay. I went to LU on the 9th and scheduled the 10th off so I could sleep in after getting home around midnight. Since I wasn't asked about working that Saturday until after I returned to work I didn't think the policy would apply in this case. They are telling me it still does.

Fine.

This can be corrected now at minimal pay roll expense and the situation will indeed be made right. However, should they choose to enforce the policy I will remember that the next time open enrollment comes around. Should I change my insurance plan it would cost them thousands. So if they want to whine and cry about money all the time, yet purchase a Segway that never gets used, I'll give them something to whine and cry about.

That's how the NRO rolls. Pour me another glass of Hate-orade.

[fightintitan2006]

Weighing in on the hot topics...
I think Grotberg or Arseneault has to be a first teamer if Grinnell finishes in the top 5. I don't think the coaches always vote necessarily on stats, I think each coach will give their vote to the guy they felt was more important to the team or the guy they felt beat them, if they did indeed lose to them.

I should also add that I think Grotberg would be able to score in any league for any team in any system.

Roop, I think the ultimate act of revenge would be to "borrow" the Segway and put together a halftime routine where you make trick shots on it while performing at halftime of Beloit games. Your act would become an overnight sensation and make you even more of a national celebrity than you already are. With millions around the world purchasing the webcast to see your routine, Beloit cashes in and much to the satisfaction of Dolph Stanley, lures Bo away from Wisconsin where he promptly leads the Bucs to 11 consecutive national tittles.

Now some questions for the board,
Will the WIAC get three teams in into the NCAA tourney or is two usually the max?


During some free time on the internet today I made the mistake of opening the Pandora's box that is the NCAA/Grinnell men's basketball record book. 

Grinnell fans,
Who was the best player out of Jeff Clement, Steve Wood, Ed Brands and Steve Diekmann?

Where does Grotberg rank right now among them...how does the talent compare surrounding some of those guys compared to Grotberg's supporting cast.

Finally, does Redlands run the exact same system as Grinnell? Who ran it first? Have the two ever played, you would think they would try over XMAS break sometime if not.

[systemfan86]

I just wanted to make a point that Grinnell's stats don't tell the whole story whether it be on offense or defense.  There are a lot of players that don't play much in the mwc, that if had the chance, could average over 20 points a game if they could shoot that much.

I have to agree in general with the first point - with the caveat that any style/system can have that effect and that Grinnell isn't unique in that respect. If you put Grotberg - and I'm choosing him in this case because he is leading the nation in scoring - and put him on a team that played the Princeton/Air Force system his numbers would be way below average; would you adjust his numbers up accordingly or would he be overlooked? The talent would be the same, but I submit very few people would notice.

What I'm concerned you're doing is discounting him not on talent but because of the jersey he wears. If - and that may be a big IF - you are doing that, then few if any players will meet your standards. If the Booper or Tommy B had played the Grinnell style of offense, would you discount their talent as well?

On the second point, that's harder to defend or refute. There are so many things that go into scoring average. Grotberg takes 60% of his shots from 3 pt range, so the shots he's taking are not as 'high percentage' shots. That and he doesn't get put backs, etc. The amount he shoots does relate to the quantity he scores. I guess my response to the second point would be: what does it say about his talent that he doesn't average over 20 (as you state), he averages over 30? Does that say something about his talent?

[systemfan86]

Systemfan

That's why you play the games.  Grinnell's system worked that night.  Let me ask you something.  How many conference tournament championships have Grinnell won with this style (one or two..three?)  How many NCAA victories do they have playing this style?  Anyone?  It's a lot harder to win games when officials do their Job!  Not saying officals are the entire reason Grinnell win or loses.  But it's to their advantage most games.  And then there were just some nights you could not stop Ed Brands with all five players.
 

They've won the league three time. They've won the tournament twice, and not won in their two appearances in the NCAA. Of course during this same time, StN, IC, CC, and Beloit have also gone to the NCAA and not won a game. Your Ripon team has appeared eight times, won three first round games, lost five, and never won a second round game. In fact, in the last 20 years, only one MWC team (2004 Larry) has won more than two game in a row in the NCAA.

Maybe, just maybe, it isn't the SYSTEM that Grinnell plays that has prevented success in the NCAA. Do you agree? 

[Scots4]

My opinion as a player who has played against Grotberg 3 times is that he is deserving of candidacy as a top player in the league. Even when he shoots his 4-20's and 5-28's you have to account for him every possession of the game. Teams prepare their game plan to stop Grotberg, but with the way Grinnell plays, the only thing that can stop Grotberg is the ball and the hoop.

Also, if we are going to sit here and talk about the inflation of stats for Grinnell, then we must consider the inflation of stats for the whole league. Also, my high school teammate and good friend plays for Elmhurst and was in shock after their tournament. He was trying to tell me how garbage Grinnell and Grotberg was after their poor showing against Whitewater. All I could say to him was that Grinnell could look like the best or worst team in the nation on any given night.

Lastly, the comment on how they play no defense is arguable. I enjoy playing against Grinnell because you can be very successful if you dont get caught up in the way that they play. Experienced players shine against Grinnell because they take one play at a time and dont try to make the layup before its there.

A friend of mine and high school teammate plays for Robert Morris-Springfield and they played Redlands a few years back. The box score for that game was just ridiculous and I wish I could find a link to it. At that time though the Redlands played the "super system" because they shot 94 three pointers and beat a VERY GOOD RMC squad 170-104.

Monmouth vs Grinnell in Glennie Gym on Tuesday night. Huge one for the Scotties if they want to get serious about playoff contention.

[The Roop]

Roop, I think the ultimate act of revenge would be to "borrow" the Segway and put together a half-time routine where you make trick shots on it while performing at half-time of Beloit games.

Borrowing the Segway, regardless of purpose, would not result in as much cost to the company as changing my insurance plan would. I've articulated a very polite draft to the human resources department which I will drop in their box on Monday morning. Their decision ultimately effects mine.

In basketball news.....................

Recruit X was absolutely sick tonight. 6 of 7 from the floor (5 of 6 from 3) and the only shot he missed was a 3 that was halfway down and somehow came out. Only 1 of 2 from the free throw line however so that 50% performance needs to improve. LOL. Dolph might not like to hear this but if Beloit lands this kid Cecil's job is safe for a long time.

X plays in a conference that, to my knowledge, Beloit has never been able to tap into before. Maybe once on the women's side in the late 80s. So if they get one to come, others are likely to follow. Beloit only graduates 2 starters this year and 1 occasional starter next year. Have your fun now MWC and kiss your mom at the bus stop because Beloit is going to take you to school.

[Gregory Sager]

I think Arsenault is second in assists right now.  He's tied with the PG from Whitworth and the other kid has played an extra game, so he gets the benefit of the doubt, but impressive nonetheless.

I've seen both Bryan Williams of Whitworth and David Arseneault of Grinnell play this season. Arseneault is very good, but I'll take Williams over him in a heartbeat. Just my opinion, of course.

Fair enough, but since the original point was that Arseneault deserves consideration for All-MWC, I don't think that choice is necessarily a knock against Little A.

I know that. But since Williams was brought up in terms of the national D3 statistics aspect of the conversation, I thought it was appropriate to add my firsthand impressions of the two PGs.

[Gregory Sager]

Also, if we are going to sit here and talk about the inflation of stats for Grinnell, then we must consider the inflation of stats for the whole league. Also, my high school teammate and good friend plays for Elmhurst and was in shock after their tournament. He was trying to tell me how garbage Grinnell and Grotberg was after their poor showing against Whitewater. All I could say to him was that Grinnell could look like the best or worst team in the nation on any given night.

I was there that afternoon in Elmhurst. Grinnell didn't look like the worst team in the nation, but UWW sure made the Pioneers look pretty putrid. It took the Pioneers five minutes before they scored their first point, by which time the Warhawks had built up a 16-0 lead. The fact that UWW did everything offensively that a team is supposed to do against Grinnell -- don't hold the ball, keep it high, stay in the middle of the floor and stay out of traps, attack the basket as quickly as you can -- added to the fact that the Warhawks, despite several dismal stretches this season, are actually a pretty talented basketball team, meant that nobody who was seeing the Arseneault system for the first time was going to be impressed by it. Those of us who were there who have seen it before (Diehardfan and I) knew that it was just a bad day at the office for Grinnell -- nothing more, nothing less.

[Speaking MWC]

While I didn't want my first post to be a rant, I don't believe it will be to the caliber of one of jeffp's. Having been at some of Grinnell's games this year, I have come to understand the system was first installed by Coach Arseneault 14 years ago, to create opportunities for many different players to play. Secondly, if his team was to lose, "putting up a number" would be something all players could talk about. It gave players something to feel better about after a loss on a long bus ride home from the "Northern" schools. Recently, (last few years) "The System" has become more about winning, while individual statistics play a less significant role.

Every team plays a little differently. While "The System" puts up the second most points per game in the country, Carroll on the other hand, puts up 84.6 points per game in conference. This happens to be 15 more ppg than 4 teams in the conference and 20 more the SNC and LFC. While Grinnell plays at a ludicrous in-your-face tempo, Carroll plays a pretty up and down pace of its own. My point being should the statistics of Drury (20.2pp) be penalized for Carroll's offense looking like "The System" compared to SNC or LFC? I think not.

How about Grinnell's defense? Grinnell's defense, while allowing 107 ppg in conference happens to be third in the nation in steals per game at 16.1 and also force 28 TO's a game. This includes 1st team candidates Drury, Maclin and Schmitting with 10, 5, and 8 turnovers respectively.

RiponRed34, make up your mind, they play defense, they don't play defense. So how does a team that doesn't play defense, force a team into 26 TO's including 16 steals and beating Ripon on their home floor?

Do coaches ever take into consideration Grinnell plays no defense? 

I KNOW GRINNELL PLAYS DEFENSE!!!!

[Greek Tragedy]

Teams prepare their game plan to stop Grotberg, but with the way Grinnell plays, the only thing that can stop Grotberg is the ball and the hoop. .

No offense to Grotberg, but I seriously doubt opposing teams are game planning to stop Grotberg.  I haven't talked to any players from other teams, but my FEELING is that they are more worried about beating the press and everything Sager said, rather than looking at how to stop Grotberg's threes, Arseneault's penatration or Chamberlain's post moves.  IMO, it's about beating the system's defense, not offense.  With that said, Oshkosh played a pretty good defensive game, holding GC to 36% shooting, the 3rd lowest they've shot all year, next to the loss to St. Norb's 33% and the loss vs. Whitewater where they shot just under 30%. 

Every team plays a little differently. While “The System” puts up the second most points per game in the country, Carroll on the other hand, puts up 84.6 points per game in conference. This happens to be 15 more ppg than 4 teams in the conference and 20 more the SNC and LFC. While Grinnell plays at a ludicrous in-your-face tempo, Carroll plays a pretty up and down pace of its own. My point being should the statistics of Drury (20.2pp) be penalized for Carroll’s offense looking like “The System” compared to SNC or LFC? I think not.

No one is ever going to confuse Carroll's offense to Grinnell's! lol 

I was there that afternoon in Elmhurst. Grinnell didn't look like the worst team in the nation, but UWW sure made the Pioneers look pretty putrid. It took the Pioneers five minutes before they scored their first point, by which time the Warhawks had built up a 16-0 lead.

That's hardly considered a lead against Grinnell! lol