MBB: Midwest Conference

[RiponRed34]

I completely agree with Scotts13...which I'm sure is a shock to you all

One point here that you CAN NOT brush off....

It is so much easier to hit shots, whether they are 3pt. or not, when you don't have any fear of being pulled....or no conscious.  I can assume most posters here have not played college ball, but maybe you played high school or AAU ball.  Don't you ever remember thinking, man if I take this fallaway three pointer and miss a couple...I'm going to get benched.  That's the reality most "non system" teams play with.  The type of shots that Grinnell takes sometimes would get most players pulled.  It's like the feeling you get during pickup ball.  No one's going to pull out of the game for taking a bad three...and sometimes that three goes in, so you keep shooting it.  Please don't think I'm comparing Grinnell to pick up ball, but I am comparing the sense of carefree attitude when shooting.  (Carefree meaning not worrying about shot selection)

Maybe I am again on an island on this one.  But Grinnell players rarely ever have these thoughts going through their head...and that plays a factor...don't think it doesn't.

[systemfan86]

You raise an interesting point schwanman...in a more typical offense, would a player like TTMG be option A, C, and D when he was on the floor?

Can't say.

I thought the fact that he was 10-16 from inside the arc and 11-13 from the line against MC was a decent indication of what he was capable of in a typical offense. Does he get that many attempts? Likely not, but Drury had 14 FGA and 10 FTA against BC, and that's not significantly less.

[systemfan86]

Brace yourself RR34...

The type of shots that Grinnell takes sometimes would get most players pulled.  It's like the feeling you get during pickup ball.  No one's going to pull out of the game for taking a bad three...and sometimes that three goes in, so you keep shooting it. 

But Grinnell players rarely ever have these thoughts going through their head...and that plays a factor.

That's an excellent point. 

I think the lack of self restriction does open up the opportunities. That makes extrapolating the numbers effectively impossible.  No other typical approach would likely allow that shot selection.

I think you may have made fightingscot13's point for him. Well done.

[RiponRed34]

Early can atest to this story:

We had a player on our team that could shoot as good as any player I've seen in college.  I mean he'd hit fallaway shot out of bounds in practice and hit nothing but net.  In JV games he'd score in the 30's everytime and sometimes hit 40.  Great shooter.  But when he was put in the real game if he missed a shot or two, coach Gillespie would pull him.  I think he was thinking too much and it translated on to the court.  Maybe that was coach G's fault, but ultimately that's the reality a lot of players face.  They don't get 5 or 6 chances to hit a three before they get hot.  Early and I would always talk about how great he'd be at Grinnell.  I really believe he would average atleast 27 points a game at Grinnell.  Early, you agree?

With all that being said, please don't feel I'm disrespecting Grinnell.  I really do respect how the system gives a lot of players a chance to play and win.  And for the most part (not their fans) their players are as classy as they come...coach A too.

Also, I feel if Grinnell sweeps this weekend, the championship is as good as theirs'.  Ripon, LU, and CC all play each other once in the last three games....tough stretch.

[schwanman]

systemfan86,

Grotberg's 10-of-16 inside the arc is slightly misleading. The Pioneers basically isolate him, and he gets the opportunity to play one-on-one, with the defender's teammates afraid to play help defense for risk of giving the man they're supposed to be guarding an easy three. As a result, he probably drove in for 3-4 simple uncontested layups in a half-court set. In a "normal" system, you might do that once a game, tops.

The ease of some of those shots created by isolation is why I previously suggested that a zone defense (not my idea, but I think it's a good one) might throw a wrench into Grinnell's plans.

But his free throw numbers were great, and he's clearly a very good player. 

[RiponRed34]

Systemfan -

I'm shocked and hurt and...shocked!

There's no agreeing in the MWC chatroom!
(that was my lame attempt at humor...think league of their own)

[RiponRed34]

Schwannman -

You bring up a good point.  Another fear when playing against the system is fear of leaving your man.  This does make it easier to go one on one...get to the FT line and not worry about help because Grinnell does a great job at finding the open man.  AND EVERYONE CAN SHOOT....not everyone is a good shooter....BUT EVERYONE CAN SHOOT AND WILL....it's like a constant threat in your face.  That made it nearly impossible to guard wood one on one.

[scottie]

Since we're making movie references now (see League of Their Own and Maverick), I'll jump in with an ode to Pat C...

You can take away my Karma, but you can't take away my freedom!   

[systemfan86]

There's no agreeing in the MWC chatroom!

I promise, I'll try not to let it happen too often!

Also, I feel if Grinnell sweeps this weekend, the championship is as good as theirs'.  Ripon, LU, and CC all play each other once in the last three games....tough stretch.

But I agree with that too. Sorry. 

[jeffdc]

systemfan86,

Grotberg's 10-of-16 inside the arc is slightly misleading. The Pioneers basically isolate him, and he gets the opportunity to play one-on-one, with the defender's teammates afraid to play help defense for risk of giving the man they're supposed to be guarding an easy three. As a result, he probably drove in for 3-4 simple uncontested layups in a half-court set. In a "normal" system, you might do that once a game, tops.

The ease of some of those shots created by isolation is why I previously suggested that a zone defense (not my idea, but I think it's a good one) might throw a wrench into Grinnell's plans.

But his free throw numbers were great, and he's clearly a very good player. 

I have to jump in here - having watched Grotberg at every home game plus a few over the web - those layups are rarely uncontested. The man usually is double or triple teamed. The 3 pointers are where he is usually (through luck, deft footwork, whatever) unguarded.

[systemfan86]

systemfan86,

Grotberg's 10-of-16 inside the arc is slightly misleading. The Pioneers basically isolate him, and he gets the opportunity to play one-on-one, with the defender's teammates afraid to play help defense for risk of giving the man they're supposed to be guarding an easy three. As a result, he probably drove in for 3-4 simple uncontested layups in a half-court set. In a "normal" system, you might do that once a game, tops.

Fair enough. So say he's 7 of 13, and he make 7 of 10 from the line. That's still 21 points, and I took away all 3pt shots, and only removed made shots, no misses. Compare those 21 points to Horton's second in the league 19.7 a game.

I'm not going to argue that TTMG isn't the focus of the GC offense when he's on the floor, but he is the focus for a specific reason. 

[schwanman]

jeffdc,

Against Monmouth, he got some uncontested shots, beating his defender off the dribble (which takes a fair amount of skill) and finding no one else to stop him once he was in the paint. All I've ever seen -- except for one bad night on ESPN2 -- is Grinnell play against Monmouth, so maybe other teams defend that isolation play much better than the Scots seem to.

And yes, Wood was great at that, too, as well as making his free throws when fouled on the isolation plays.

[Scots4]

Anytime that Grotberg got a one-on-one situation against Monmouth, the defender was at the mercy of the referee. As i have progressed through my basketball career I have become severly disillusioned with what "good defense" is. I have seen in our games and watching a few Elmhurst games that a defensive player gets penalized for keeping his body between his man and the basket. This is not a knock on Grotberg or the system, this is just a statement about college basketball.


Ripon Red- your comment about the Grinnell players not having to worry about getting benched is false. Coach A has probably the quickest hook in the league at about 45 seconds...

[schwanman]

Good one ... that got you a karma point, Scots4!

[systemfan86]

Ripon Red- your comment about the Grinnell players not having to worry about getting benched is false. Coach A has probably the quickest hook in the league at about 45 seconds...

Well done Scots4.

Of course, if you know you're only going to be on the floor for 45 seconds, you better get your shots off without thinking because if you don't, you won't get any shots.