MBB: Midwest Conference

[The Roop]

The Final Four as told by The Roop:

Wheaton vs. Wash U.

Who cares vs. Who cares

Wheaton vs. Wash U. winner gets a bye as the title game is a mere formality. Wash U. gets a bye in the consolation game.

Nice run by Coast Guard, a mild surprise to see them win the first one but they've had byes ever since. Millsaps.......... Reality sets in tonight.

Some regions, sections and quadrants are historically weaker than others. Since they've long since gone to D2 there is no LeMoyne-Owen to "magically" win one for the south this year.

[Pat Coleman]

Yeah, man, that Northeast is so weak nobody from there could ever win a national title. 

[The Roop]

I didn't mention the Northeast by name did I ? Amherst has proven their ability to lose 2 in Salem haven't they ? I think it will happen again. No REPEATS this year.

[Greek Tragedy]

Yeah, man, that Northeast is so weak nobody from there could ever win a national title. 

Just curious.  How many teams from the Northeast region hve won the national title?  I'm not real familiar with that region.  Has it just been teams from the NESCAC, Williams and Amherst? 

What teams have made the Final Four out of that region?  Maybe if I have time, I'll look it up.  Just wondering since it was brought up! lol.

[sac]

Two have won the National Championship: 2003 Williams, 2007 Amherst

Here's the Northeast's Final Four reps in the "sectionals" era

1989--So. Maine
1993--UMass-Dartmouth
1995--Trinity, CT
1997--Williams
1998--Williams
1999--Conn. College
2000--Salem State
2003--Williams
2004--Williams, Amherst
2006--Amherst
2007--Amherst
2008--Amherst

I forget what year, but NESCAC teams didn't compete in the National Tournament untill the early/mid 90's.

[The Roop]

It was a mascot joke. Go back and look at what I had in quotes. Not sure how it was missed and why it has gone this far the other way. 

[Greek Tragedy]

Whatever the case, it was interesting to know how the Northeast has done in the Final Four.  I knew of those two cases of Williams and Amherst winning, but wasn't sure who was all in the Final Four, I checked the playoffs link, but was too lazy to go through all the Final Four results! lol...thanks Sac!

[Gregory Sager]

Two have won the National Championship: 2003 Williams, 2007 Amherst

Here's the Northeast's Final Four reps in the "sectionals" era

1989--So. Maine
1993--UMass-Dartmouth
1995--Trinity, CT
1997--Williams
1998--Williams
1999--Conn. College
2000--Salem State
2003--Williams
2004--Williams, Amherst
2006--Amherst
2007--Amherst
2008--Amherst

Here's the full list of Northeast Region Final Four participants:

1984--Clark (second)
1987--Clark (second)
1989--Southern Maine (third)
1993--UMass-Dartmouth (fourth)
1995--Trinity (CT) (fourth)
1997--Williams (third)
1998--Williams (third)
1999--Connecticut College (third)
2000--Salem State (third)
2003--Williams (first)
2004--Williams (second)
2004--Amherst (fourth)
2006--Amherst (fourth)
2007--Amherst (first)
2008--Amherst (?)

This may seem like a lot of Final Four appearances, but given the law of averages the Northeast Region would get a Final Four rep every other year if all things were equal. Instead, this will be the fifteenth appearance by a Northeast Region team in the 34th year of the tournament. Given the numerical superiority of the region as compared to other regions, its relatively close proximity to other regions (which is why the NESCAC was able to get two teams into the Final Four in '04), and the historical weakness of the region with which it has invariably been partnered in post-'89 sectional/pre-'89 quarterfinal play (the East Region), this is a surprisingly low total number of Final Fours that have been reached by NER teams. In fact, it took the land of maple syrup and clam chowdah a full decade just to reach the Final Four for the first time.

What's most shocking, though, is the competitive poverty of the region aside from the NESCAC. Only five non-NESCAC teams from that region over those 34 seasons -- two independent teams (Clark was not yet a member of the NEWMAC), two Little Eight teams, and a MASCAC team -- have made the Final Four.

I forget what year, but NESCAC teams didn't compete in the National Tournament untill the early/mid 90's.

1994

[The Roop]

Didn't they have an undefeated and #1 ranked team two years in row in the late 80s ?? But they could not compete in the NCAAs because the conference wouldn't allow it as it lasted longer than two weeks. I remember hearing something to that effect back then, although that doesn't make it true.

[systemfan86]

Kroeger was a stud.   At the end of Regulation, he had outscored Raymond 23-10.  He showed why he was conference POY.   I am not saying he is a better all around player than Raymond, but he sure was for 40 minutes.  While I never jumped in, I thought the discussion on the board that he might not be the best player in the league was a bunch of hooey.   When you look at shooting percentages as well as overall games, I think this game confirmed he was this years best player.

Yeah, Kroeger got votes because of shooting percentage...We'll go with that for now. "...overall games" is a little hard to define, so it's hard to refute.

Is your point that Kroeger didn't get support because his team won the league?  Do you really think that wasn't a factor?

Nice performance by the "dynasty" by the way...That's the problem with putting a monicker like that on your team, it sets them up for cracks from other teams' supporters. Of course, since they play a traditional style, it wasn't their approach that caused them to fall short in the tournament. Right? That only applies to Grinnell.

Sorry, nut, I don't think you were the one making the dynasty call, the crap that gets thrown Grinnell's way is a touch frustrating at times. Guess you have to take the bad with the good, right?

[The Roop]

Take a deep breath, lets relax........... I don't think Nut was implying anything about Grinnell  with his comments. While it does help a potential POY if his team wins the championship, it doesn't always guarantee it. Additionally, if team success is the only guideline there's no way that Andy Horton makes 1st Team from Beloit this year, yet he is there.

[LU_nut]

systemfan.

first off....you are right, I never have stated anything regarding "dynasty".
I think what Lu has accomplished given their history(years of horrendous b-ball) has been amazing.

Second, my main point to the paragraph you highlighted is just that Kroeger proved himself as the POY.   I do think shooting % is a big deal.   Anyone who shoots 50% from three point land is having a helluva bigger impact than someone shooting 35%.  

I have never been a systems basher.   I see the good in the system with the bad.  I love the fact that everyone plays.  That is a a big bonus at any level, but I think especially at D3 level where the sports experience is in theory complimentary to the academic experience.    I am not nuts about the system and think that the years that GC was good are years that they would be good in any system.   Would have loved to see Nordlund as a traditional 3.  Wood could have played any system and been great.  Grotberg would be a terrific 2 guard in any program and little A would be a good point guard in a traditional system as well......maybe even better.
I hated the run for the assist record this year and went on record on that one.   I did grow to believe that Long is as good as anyone on the team.   Lastly, three years ago when they had no one who could shoot and got on national TV, I believe they set D3 ball back a decade.   That was one ugly team.....kind of need someone who can hit a three to play that style.

For you to try have some fun with shooting percentage is off base.   It has been a reason LU has been successful.  They tend to lead the league in shooting percentage and are among the leaders in defensive percentage.
Kroeger's accuracy is part of what made him a deserving POY.    Just cause you launch a ton of shots and have a high scoring average does not mean you are making the greatest contribution.     The other interesting thing about the Wheaton game is that Kroeger was guarding Raymond.   Raymond might be regarded as the top 2 guard in the country.....he scored over 40 in the sweet 16 game.

I was just responding to some people's posts that they thought Kroeger won just because LU won the conference.  I would put it the other way around.   LU won the conference in large part because Kroeger was the best player in the conference.     There are years that the top team did not have the POY.  One of the years LU won, Braier did not win the POY award(Becker from Ripon?).   No bitching from me on that one.    Ripon's fall after he left showed just how special he was.

So.....have a nice day.   I am glad Grinnell is in the conference and that it plays the style they do.  It adds a lot to the conference.   Getting to see it once or twice a year is enough for me, but to each their own.

Lu_Nut

ps:   GC and LU both have lot back next year.....should be an interesting battle.

[The Roop]

Nut,

Having met the System Master recently I can say that some of my previous thoughts were in error; as are yours. No harm, no foul. However, he is only allowed one paduwan learner at a time so I cannot help you right now. You must unlearn what you have learned......

For those unable to put 2 and 2 together, this is a Star Wars joke. You may laugh now.....

[Gregory Sager]

Didn't they have an undefeated and #1 ranked team two years in row in the late 80s ?? But they could not compete in the NCAAs because the conference wouldn't allow it as it lasted longer than two weeks. I remember hearing something to that effect back then, although that doesn't make it true.

You're thinking of Hamilton, which didn't compete in the D3 tourney in the late '80s because it was a NESCAC member at the time. Hamilton is in the East Region, not the Northeast Region; it's located in a small town called Clinton that's located between Syracuse and Utica in central New York.

[systemfan86]

systemfan.

first off....you are right, I never have stated anything regarding "dynasty".
I think what Lu has accomplished given their history(years of horrendous b-ball) has been amazing.

I have never been a systems basher.   I see the good in the system with the bad.  ps:   GC and LU both have lot back next year.....should be an interesting battle.

I'm glad I noted that I didn't think you were the one making the dynasty claim. Obviously, that stuck in my craw a bit. The critiques of the Grinnell's style of play based on tournament results seem a touch unfair as well, so when Larry got tripped up and no one attributes it to 'style' seemed like an opportunity to compare and contrast.

I'm not trying to make the point that Kroeger isn't valuable. Given that I didn't have the chance to see games in person, I'm not qualified to make a call on POY. I guess my thought (admittedly from a distance) is that there wasn't a singular standout player in the league this year and that all things being equal Kroeger was a candidate who's winning may have been 'tipped' by the teams performance. You may be right that it's a chicken and egg issue.

To your point on GC players that could have been successful on others teams, I guess the response is 'of course, they're basketball players'. The same thing could be said in reverse about a lot of players. Becker leaps to mind, he could have been a great 'systemball' player; put the Bopper on Grinnell and you have a better version of what Chamberlain was this year. It may be another chicken and egg issue: good basketball players didn't consider Grinnell prior to the system. The team sucked. It wasn't until they took up this style of play that they got the recognition that they have today, and that recognition appears to improved the quality of player attracted to play at Grinnell. If they switched back, would they still get these players, or would they revert back to being just like any/every other DIII team out there? Hard to say, but given that they are coming, why change?

Grinnell has been successful, and it's frustrating to have other fans say that they should give up that success simply in the interest of being like everyone else. Grinnell is different and they're OK with that. Forgive us if we don't want to give that up.