NE Region General Questions

[lildave678]

This comes down to the point we've talked about before...What benefit do higher ranked teams get out of playing the likes of WPI and Albertus? If they win, oh they beat a GNAC team big whoop. If they lose it becomes a huge blemish. This is easily Albertus' toughest non conference schedule since I've been paying attention.

[madzillagd]

There are two ways to get up in the rankings - great tournament performances and stronger SOS.  If you can prove in the tournament that you have a solid team despite a weaker SOS, I think you are going to get the benefit of the doubt.  If you haven't proven anything with a deep tournament run, then SOS is you only other option to try and gain some leverage.  AMC has done neither of those two things to date.  I'm surprised by how low they are but I can understand what the logic is at this point.  Had they gone deeper over the past few years in the tournament they probably would have gotten more of the benefit of the doubt.

Keep in mind though, of the 7 teams ahead of them at least 4 of them are guaranteed to lose another game.  Six of the teams (Am/Wi/Bo - Bab/WPI/Sprin) will be playing in conference tournaments where there can be only one winner.  It is possible that if AMC wins out they could pass up a couple of those teams that drop a game. 

[lildave678]

And like GNAC said, I'm not looking for 1st or 2nd...I actually think they're Ok where they are, but don't say they avoid a tough schedule. You think after getting to the dance 3 out of 5 years they wouldn't want a tougher schedule to A. battle test them and B. If they navigate positively it could help them if they slip up in conference? Coach Oliver was a D1 assistant. I'm sure he's well aware of SOS.

Alas, I'll wait and see how the upcoming ratings turn out!

[pjunito]

I finally got in and to my computer. When GNAC texted me that Albertus was 8. I thought he was pulling my leg. I could understand 6. But, no way should Eastern and Springfield be ahead of Albertus. I don't understand why there is a committee, just stick the SOS into the computer and you will get your regional ranking every week and every year. Why bother having a human involved at all? Since they can't use the eye test! I have a few thoughts.. Does the regional committee take out of conference SOS into consideration? Here is why I bring that up. The GNAC is weak..

Albertus GNAC opponents have a 81-113 record.. that might bring a SOS down a bit.... Out of conference, a respectable 75-60, oh by the way, only one of those games was played at home.

Springfield NEWMAC opponents have a 89-63 record... Out of Conference 121-118.. Of course their SOS will be much higher than Albertus... Even a non MIT grad can do that math.

SOS is the most over-rated criteria in making this selection. Albertus lost one game this year, it was at St. Joseph of Maine and was ugly. But, a win at St. Joe's would have actually hurt their SOS therefore not helping their cause to move up in the region. Now tell me, how does that make any sense?

Now Babson has a much better out of conference record - 139-98 but, lost every out of conference game they played agaisnt a very good opponent. Their best win was vs WPI (which everyone is attacking their SOS and of course they lost a few players).

I don't think anyone thinks Albertus should be top 3.. But, I am confused by the process. If Babson losses 2 more games and Albertus wins out in regular season, do they move up? Are wins versus Norwich, Emmanual, and at JWU really that impressive? surely they won't help SOS, since Nowrich is 5-17 and Emmanual 4-18, even though JWU has a respectable 17-5 record.

Someone has to explain this to me...

Since I don't have to work tomorrow, I'll be here all night.

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

Couple of things:

- Playing games on the road has a weighted advantage of 1.25... thus AMC is being rewarded for playing those games away from home... but , their SOS is .468.
- Playing a D1 team... makes no difference at all. It is secondary criteria at best, but will count as another loss and won't be used when comparing to another D3 team since no one else played Central Connecticut. In other words... it is a non-game.
- Past tournament history actually has no bearing on current regional rankings. It isn't part of the criteria and coaches don't consider it.
- SOS isn't overrated since it is used in all of the NCAA Division III. That is the criteria Division III as a whole has determined to include in all of its sports. You may not like it, but it is a far cry from QOWI or the old boys network.
- There is a lot more criteria than SOS and W/L percentage. Look at the entire body of work and the entire criteria and a lot of your answers will reveal themselves.
- If AMC had beaten St. Joe's they would be undefeated in Division III play and that would probably have moved them up the regional rankings (we see good records outweighing weak SOSs in other regions). In reality, their "result" of losing to St. Joe's is worse for their criteria than their weak SOS.

AMC's SOS will climb by default as they finished conference play and it may climb a little higher after conference tournament action, but to fall back and say they can't schedule better is kidding one's self. Just two games again solid competition would improve their position.

I was asked to give my top ten in the region and I assumed since this was a regional ranking conversation that is what I was being asked to. If you are curious what my overall impression is, you know my Top 25 ballot which gives you the answer you are looking for (look at a few weeks worth if need be).

[Pat Coleman]

Beating St. Joe's or losing to St. Joe's has no effect on Albertus' SOS. SJCME's SOS is calculated after removing the Albertus results.

[GnacBballFan]

There are two ways to get up in the rankings - great tournament performances and stronger SOS.  If you can prove in the tournament that you have a solid team despite a weaker SOS, I think you are going to get the benefit of the doubt.  If you haven't proven anything with a deep tournament run, then SOS is you only other option to try and gain some leverage.  AMC has done neither of those two things to date.  I'm surprised by how low they are but I can understand what the logic is at this point.  Had they gone deeper over the past few years in the tournament they probably would have gotten more of the benefit of the doubt.

Keep in mind though, of the 7 teams ahead of them at least 4 of them are guaranteed to lose another game.  Six of the teams (Am/Wi/Bo - Bab/WPI/Sprin) will be playing in conference tournaments where there can be only one winner.  It is possible that if AMC wins out they could pass up a couple of those teams that drop a game.

Why would previous tournaments have to do with this yrs regional rankings? And if that's the case albertus has been to the second round twice in last 4 yrs. mucho retched Springfield, Babson, and ECSU. So not really understanding that one

[GnacBballFan]

I finally got in and to my computer. When GNAC texted me that Albertus was 8. I thought he was pulling my leg. I could understand 6. But, no way should Eastern and Springfield be ahead of Albertus. I don't understand why there is a committee, just stick the SOS into the computer and you will get your regional ranking every week and every year. Why bother having a human involved at all? Since they can't use the eye test! I have a few thoughts.. Does the regional committee take out of conference SOS into consideration? Here is why I bring that up. The GNAC is weak..

Albertus GNAC opponents have a 81-113 record.. that might bring a SOS down a bit.... Out of conference, a respectable 75-60, oh by the way, only one of those games was played at home.

Springfield NEWMAC opponents have a 89-63 record... Out of Conference 121-118.. Of course their SOS will be much higher than Albertus... Even a non MIT grad can do that math.

SOS is the most over-rated criteria in making this selection. Albertus lost one game this year, it was at St. Joseph of Maine and was ugly. But, a win at St. Joe's would have actually hurt their SOS therefore not helping their cause to move up in the region. Now tell me, how does that make any sense?

Now Babson has a much better out of conference record - 139-98 but, lost every out of conference game they played agaisnt a very good opponent. Their best win was vs WPI (which everyone is attacking their SOS and of course they lost a few players).

I don't think anyone thinks Albertus should be top 3.. But, I am confused by the process. If Babson losses 2 more games and Albertus wins out in regular season, do they move up? Are wins versus Norwich, Emmanual, and at JWU really that impressive? surely they won't help SOS, since Nowrich is 5-17 and Emmanual 4-18, even though JWU has a respectable 17-5 record.

Someone has to explain this to me...

Since I don't have to work tomorrow, I'll be here all night.

Great points pj. "Even an non MIT grad can do that math." lol

I appreciate everyone's insight. Some points I don't understand, a I have stated. But either way that is why they play the games. I enjoy the arguments and opinions none the less

[GnacBballFan]

Couple of things:

- Playing games on the road has a weighted advantage of 1.25... thus AMC is being rewarded for playing those games away from home... but , their SOS is .468.
- Playing a D1 team... makes no difference at all. It is secondary criteria at best, but will count as another loss and won't be used when comparing to another D3 team since no one else played Central Connecticut. In other words... it is a non-game.
- Past tournament history actually has no bearing on current regional rankings. It isn't part of the criteria and coaches don't consider it.
- SOS isn't overrated since it is used in all of the NCAA Division III. That is the criteria Division III as a whole has determined to include in all of its sports. You may not like it, but it is a far cry from QOWI or the old boys network.
- There is a lot more criteria than SOS and W/L percentage. Look at the entire body of work and the entire criteria and a lot of your answers will reveal themselves.
- If AMC had beaten St. Joe's they would be undefeated in Division III play and that would probably have moved them up the regional rankings (we see good records outweighing weak SOSs in other regions). In reality, their "result" of losing to St. Joe's is worse for their criteria than their weak SOS.

AMC's SOS will climb by default as they finished conference play and it may climb a little higher after conference tournament action, but to fall back and say they can't schedule better is kidding one's self. Just two games again solid competition would improve their position.

I was asked to give my top ten in the region and I assumed since this was a regional ranking conversation that is what I was being asked to. If you are curious what my overall impression is, you know my Top 25 ballot which gives you the answer you are looking for (look at a few weeks worth if need be).

I should have read everyone's posting before posting myself. I didn't think past tourney history made any sense at all, so thanks for clearing that up. I was really scratching my head at that point

[GnacBballFan]

Couple of things:

- Playing games on the road has a weighted advantage of 1.25... thus AMC is being rewarded for playing those games away from home... but , their SOS is .468.
- Playing a D1 team... makes no difference at all. It is secondary criteria at best, but will count as another loss and won't be used when comparing to another D3 team since no one else played Central Connecticut. In other words... it is a non-game.
- Past tournament history actually has no bearing on current regional rankings. It isn't part of the criteria and coaches don't consider it.
- SOS isn't overrated since it is used in all of the NCAA Division III. That is the criteria Division III as a whole has determined to include in all of its sports. You may not like it, but it is a far cry from QOWI or the old boys network.
- There is a lot more criteria than SOS and W/L percentage. Look at the entire body of work and the entire criteria and a lot of your answers will reveal themselves.
- If AMC had beaten St. Joe's they would be undefeated in Division III play and that would probably have moved them up the regional rankings (we see good records outweighing weak SOSs in other regions). In reality, their "result" of losing to St. Joe's is worse for their criteria than their weak SOS.

AMC's SOS will climb by default as they finished conference play and it may climb a little higher after conference tournament action, but to fall back and say they can't schedule better is kidding one's self. Just two games again solid competition would improve their position.

I was asked to give my top ten in the region and I assumed since this was a regional ranking conversation that is what I was being asked to. If you are curious what my overall impression is, you know my Top 25 ballot which gives you the answer you are looking for (look at a few weeks worth if need be).

New Jersey city was on the schedule as well, and after starting off hot have cooled down. Again you can sit here and say we are falling back on the scheduling and that's your opinion. But it's not a fact that albertus chose to play a weak schedule. With elms(make no mistake has been a solid program in new england the last 7 yrs but is having a down yr at 13-11), New Jersey city, purchase, and Mitchell it's not as if we are playing high schools here. So I disagree with your opinion that we are falling back on the schedule. Maybe next time coach Oliver is on hoopsville this question can be asked since it may seem that way to you. I'm sure he would love to answwer that for us.

[NEHoopsFan99]

I finally got in and to my computer. When GNAC texted me that Albertus was 8. I thought he was pulling my leg. I could understand 6. But, no way should Eastern and Springfield be ahead of Albertus. I don't understand why there is a committee, just stick the SOS into the computer and you will get your regional ranking every week and every year. Why bother having a human involved at all? Since they can't use the eye test! I have a few thoughts.. Does the regional committee take out of conference SOS into consideration? Here is why I bring that up. The GNAC is weak..

Albertus GNAC opponents have a 81-113 record.. that might bring a SOS down a bit.... Out of conference, a respectable 75-60, oh by the way, only one of those games was played at home.

Springfield NEWMAC opponents have a 89-63 record... Out of Conference 121-118.. Of course their SOS will be much higher than Albertus... Even a non MIT grad can do that math.

SOS is the most over-rated criteria in making this selection. Albertus lost one game this year, it was at St. Joseph of Maine and was ugly. But, a win at St. Joe's would have actually hurt their SOS therefore not helping their cause to move up in the region. Now tell me, how does that make any sense?

Now Babson has a much better out of conference record - 139-98 but, lost every out of conference game they played agaisnt a very good opponent. Their best win was vs WPI (which everyone is attacking their SOS and of course they lost a few players).

I don't think anyone thinks Albertus should be top 3.. But, I am confused by the process. If Babson losses 2 more games and Albertus wins out in regular season, do they move up? Are wins versus Norwich, Emmanual, and at JWU really that impressive? surely they won't help SOS, since Nowrich is 5-17 and Emmanual 4-18, even though JWU has a respectable 17-5 record.

Someone has to explain this to me...

Since I don't have to work tomorrow, I'll be here all night.

Now not to be nitpicking but Babson won every out of conference game they played except for Bowdoin (away) and Amherst (who was back for revenge because Babson beat them last year). But they beat many quality teams with strong records. So not really getting your argument. AMC's out of conference does not even compare. Look at the records of both teams opponents.

[GnacBballFan]

I finally got in and to my computer. When GNAC texted me that Albertus was 8. I thought he was pulling my leg. I could understand 6. But, no way should Eastern and Springfield be ahead of Albertus. I don't understand why there is a committee, just stick the SOS into the computer and you will get your regional ranking every week and every year. Why bother having a human involved at all? Since they can't use the eye test! I have a few thoughts.. Does the regional committee take out of conference SOS into consideration? Here is why I bring that up. The GNAC is weak..

Albertus GNAC opponents have a 81-113 record.. that might bring a SOS down a bit.... Out of conference, a respectable 75-60, oh by the way, only one of those games was played at home.

Springfield NEWMAC opponents have a 89-63 record... Out of Conference 121-118.. Of course their SOS will be much higher than Albertus... Even a non MIT grad can do that math.

SOS is the most over-rated criteria in making this selection. Albertus lost one game this year, it was at St. Joseph of Maine and was ugly. But, a win at St. Joe's would have actually hurt their SOS therefore not helping their cause to move up in the region. Now tell me, how does that make any sense?

Now Babson has a much better out of conference record - 139-98 but, lost every out of conference game they played agaisnt a very good opponent. Their best win was vs WPI (which everyone is attacking their SOS and of course they lost a few players).

I don't think anyone thinks Albertus should be top 3.. But, I am confused by the process. If Babson losses 2 more games and Albertus wins out in regular season, do they move up? Are wins versus Norwich, Emmanual, and at JWU really that impressive? surely they won't help SOS, since Nowrich is 5-17 and Emmanual 4-18, even though JWU has a respectable 17-5 record.

Someone has to explain this to me...

Since I don't have to work tomorrow, I'll be here all night.

Now not to be nitpicking but Babson won every out of conference game they played except for Bowdoin (away) and Amherst (who was back for revenge because Babson beat them last year). But they beat many quality teams with strong records. So not really getting your argument. AMC's out of conference does not even compare. Look at the records of both teams opponents.

11/15    vs. Thomas •    W, 93-44   BX RC
11/16    vs. Skidmore •    W, 78-60   BX RC
11/19    at Lasell •    W, 72-68   BX RC
11/26    at Becker •    W, 62-60   BX RC
12/1    at Bowdoin •    L, 66-54   BX RC
12/4    at Newbury •    W, 82-43   BX RC PH
12/7    at Brandeis •    W, 78-47   BX RC
@ Tufts University
12/8    at Salem State •    W, 101-87   BX RC
@ Tufts University
12/12    vs. Amherst •    L, 90-77   BX RC RC
12/30    vs. Colorado College •    W, 93-90   BX RC RC
1/4    vs. Elms •   


Only teams that stand out to me are Amherst, Bowdoin, and Colorado College. 1-2 record in these games. 4 point win over lasell, who albertus beat by 31 two nights ago, newbury, and Thomas are not strong non conference games. Skidmore, Brandeis, and Salem state solid I suppose? Not even sure. Brandeis is having a down yr. don't think this schedule is anything special. Babson best win is against wpi, who everyone is also under ranking in my opinion.

[GnacBballFan]

I'll try and change the subject in terms of the rankings. Here's a different question. If albertus and WPI finish 6 & 7 in the rankings, and win their conferences, where does this leave them in the Ncaa's? Facing an Amherst or Williams in the second round most likely?

[pjunito]

Pat, thanks.. Good point.

GNAC, Thank you for putting Babson's schedule up. You made my point exactly. NEFAN, the point isn't that the SOS is better because you are right it is, the point is that they went 1-2 agaisnt the good teams.

Couple of things:

- SOS isn't overrated since it is used in all of the NCAA Division III. That is the criteria Division III as a whole has determined to include in all of its sports. You may not like it, but it is a far cry from QOWI or the old boys network.

Now, in fairness, I don't know how Dave feels about SOS. He may hate it and is just relaying accurate information to the boards. But, Dave, just because all sports in NCAA Division 3 uses SOS as a criteria doesn't mean it is not overrated. Do you know how much weight is being given to SOS? If you say 10%, then I agree with you. But, if it is like 40%, then that is way too high. And I agree, the old boys network is the worst way to selection regional rankigs.

- If AMC had beaten St. Joe's they would be undefeated in Division III play and that would probably have moved them up the regional rankings (we see good records outweighing weak SOSs in other regions). In reality, their "result" of losing to St. Joe's is worse for their criteria than their weak SOS.

Dave, head scratching right now... I understand that 16-5 can be better than 19-1, but Springfield isn't playing in the 2006 Big East. The idea that Springfield, Babson, East Conn, would be undefeated playing the Albertus schedule is laughable at best. There is no way to know that for sure.

AMC's SOS will climb by default as they finished conference play and it may climb a little higher after conference tournament action, but to fall back and say they can't schedule better is kidding one's self. Just two games again solid competition would improve their position.

Finally, I would love to see Albertus play tougher non conference opponents. Newbury is the only team Albertus scheduled that has a losing record. 75-60 isn't outstanding but isn't horrible. Caluclate that SOS for me Dave. 6 games (4 away, 1 neutral, and 1 at home - SUNY purchase). But, the idea that Albertus is scheduling cupcakes for out of conference is not true. One more thing, Wes, Western CT, Trinity, Conn College, and Coast Guard are not on the Albertus schedule this year. Prior to this year, From 2009-12, 4 seasons, those teams played Albertus a combine 15 times. Between 09 and 10, Albertus was 2-6, since 2010-11 seasons, Albertus is 7-0 agaisnt those teams. I doubt that Coach Oliver said no to scheduling any of those teams this year.

[GnacBballFan]

Pj,

Great research on albertus being 7-0 against those teams over last 2-3 yrs. I think that says it all right there. I'm sure they weren't avoided by Oliver. But again, it'd be a great question to ask Oliver on hoopsville if he gets back on. It's a fair question if everyone including Dave is questioning albertus' schedule out of conference. And I'm sure Oliver would love to answer it