NE Region General Questions

[thatdude 30]

My guess is that it was NE voters switching votes from Brdigewater to Amherst.  The votes that Bridgewater and and UMD lost (-312 combined) went directly to Amherst and Middlebury (+295 combined), it appears.

That makes sense. Thanks Hugenerd

[Hugenerd]

According to the national top 25, here is how the northeast looks, same format as last week:

1. Middlebury (9 in the top 25, 359 points, +159 points)
2. UMD (10 , 342 points, +23 points)
3. Amherst (17, 185, -74)
4. Brandeis (18, 181, +84)
5. Williams (20, 120, +53)
6. Elms (26, 87, -26)
7. MIT (27, 86, +65)
8. WPI (36, 12, -25)

Bridgewater State continues its decent, losing all 118 points it had (in the last two weeks they have dropped 352 points.

Biggest surprise is probably Middlebury jumping UMD without really beating anybody (this could again be the same thing we saw last week, voters perceive them as the top NESCAC team now that Amherst lost and therefore points lost by Amherst are potentially shifting to them).  They moved up 159 points, or an average of 6 spots per ballot.  Brandeis also moved up about 3.5 spots per ballot, while Amherst dropped about 3 spots per ballot.  Williams moved up about 2 spots per ballot while MIT moved up about 2.5 spots per ballot.  MIT and Elms are just a few points out of the top 25 (#25 has 90 points).

[All-around]

Only thing is that UMD has had there all-american every game except the 1st game. The problem is he is still recovering from off season surgery so he is not in his all american status just yet. Once he gets healthy UMD will prob be the best in the northeast hands down. I also think that East Conn has a chance to move up to that 8 or 9 lot if they keep playing the way they have been playing

Who is UMD's all american--I don't recall them having one?

[nescac1]

Well, I should have said, top player and potential all-american, Brandon Shelton ...

I think the top 25 poll is now getting closer to reality, especially with Bridgewater gone, but Brandeis is too high, and MIT as a returning tourney team that is 8-0 deserves more props and should slide into that spot. 

I might go something like this:

1. UMD  (maybe not quite playing up to its talent level yet, but I think still the top team in the region as it gets healthy) 2. Williams  3. Middlebury  4. MIT  5. Elms 6. Amherst (probably a little low but they did lose to Elms head-to-head; I imagine they'll quickly return to the top 3-4) 7. Colby 8. Brandeis 9. Bowdoin 10. WPI.    I think two through six are fairly interchangeable and they will all slide around quite a bit in that range ...

[Hugenerd]

Only thing is that UMD has had there all-american every game except the 1st game. The problem is he is still recovering from off season surgery so he is not in his all american status just yet. Once he gets healthy UMD will prob be the best in the northeast hands down. I also think that East Conn has a chance to move up to that 8 or 9 lot if they keep playing the way they have been playing

Who is UMD's all american--I don't recall them having one?

Brandon Shelton was a D3 News Pre-season Honarable-Mention All-American, I believe.  He has never been named an All-American, or All-Region for that matter, by d3hoops.com.

[thatdude 30]

Only thing is that UMD has had there all-american every game except the 1st game. The problem is he is still recovering from off season surgery so he is not in his all american status just yet. Once he gets healthy UMD will prob be the best in the northeast hands down. I also think that East Conn has a chance to move up to that 8 or 9 lot if they keep playing the way they have been playing

Who is UMD's all american--I don't recall them having one?

Brandon Shelton was a D3 News Pre-season Honarable-Mention All-American, I believe.  He has never been named an All-American, or All-Region for that matter, by d3hoops.com.

Yea i think he was a 3rd team all american for division 3 news and honorable mention for sporting news

[LECFAN32]

with the win today over Umass dartmouth (whose all american has been playing for the past couple weeks) I find it hard to believe that western ct isnt in the discussion for one of the top teams in the region, there only loss of the season was to a richard stockton team who was at the time #4 in the country by only 2 points, a supposed very athletic umd team was dominated today on the glass (47-27!) by a western team playing with a ton of confidence and should to start to be given its due.

[Hugenerd]

with the win today over Umass dartmouth (whose all american has been playing for the past couple weeks) I find it hard to believe that western ct isnt in the discussion for one of the top teams in the region, there only loss of the season was to a richard stockton team who was at the time #4 in the country by only 2 points, a supposed very athletic umd team was dominated today on the glass (47-27!) by a western team playing with a ton of confidence and should to start to be given its due.

Im sure they will pickup a couple votes this week.  It is always most difficult to get noticed by the voters the first time, so if they continue to play well the rankings will sort themselves out by february.

[nescac1]

I think everyone (myself included) was giving UMD the benefit of the doubt because of their performance last year and all the talent they have on paper, but clearly, something is missing so far this year -- even in their wins, for the most part they haven't exactly been crushing the lesser opponents they faced.  They are going to drop pretty hard.  Meanwhile, Western Conn, a very young team, seems to have arrived a year ahead of schedule.  Now that we've had enough time to see teams to judge more on this year's performance than past reputation, I'd say a New England ranking would look something like this:

1. Williams, 2. Middlebury, 3. MIT, 4. Amherst (clearly the top four teams in the region in some order based on talent and performance to date, after that it gets a little tricky).  I'm not sure anyone outside of that group deserves to be in the national top 25 based on performance to date.  Then there is a group of about ten solid teams,  Western Conn, Eastern Conn, UMD, Bowdoin, Colby, Brandeis, WPI, Lasell, Thomas, Bates, that all seem capable of beating each other on any given night. 

[All-around]

Lasell's in that mix with a 3-5 record?

[nescac1]

Woops, I meant Elms, not Lasell. 

[leelowlang]

Conference Winning Percentages:

1.  NESCAC - .675, 52-25 - Williams 8-0, Middlebury 7-0, Colby 7-1, Amherst 6-1, Bowdoin 6-2, Bates 5-2
2.  NEWMAC - .600, 39-26 - MIT 11-0, WPI 9-1, Clark 7-3
3.  LEC - .589, 43-30 - West Conn 8-1, East Conn 7-1, UMD 6-2
4.  GNAC - .520, 40-37 - Albertus Magnus and St. Joseph (ME) 6-1, Mount Ida 6-2
5.  NAC - .450, 27-33, Thomas 7-1
6.  NECC - .438, 28-36 - Elms 6-2, Wheelock 5-2
7.  CCC - .415, 49-69 - Roger Williams 7-2, Colby-Sawyer 5-2
8.  MASCAC - .390, 23-36 - Westfield State 6-4
*Brandeis - .875, 7-1
*UMPI - ..000, 0-5

[remsleep]

MIT is really an unknown quantity at this point.  Their pre-conference schedule is so weak that it is really difficult to presume anything about them other than to say they are pretty good---but that is it.  I think they will really struggle against NEWMAC opponents such as WPI, Clark and Babson who will recognize that they are very slow on the defensive end of the floor ( except for the freshman, Kates) and will attack them mercilessly.  The question for opponents of MIT, of course, will be whether or not they will be able to contain the MIT offense which has multiple options.   MIT is not ready to be put in a class with Williams, Middlebury or some of the other verifiably strong D3 teams just yet.    They are probably somewhere in the range of about 45th or so in terms of D3 rankings ( this, of course, is an intuitive ranking).  No defense, no rank high ranking.  Beat a couple of pretty good teams ( WPI, Clark for instance) and then maybe some consideration for national ranking.....until then, MIT is a year away.    They REALLY need to upgrade their schedule if they want to get some serious consideration as a top team.......get rid of the Newbury, Suffolk, Emerson, Lesley type teams....I'm sure there are some legitimate opponents out there who would like to play you in the first half of the season.   Why not a return to the Lopata Tournament for a start?

[Hugenerd]

MIT is really an unknown quantity at this point.  Their pre-conference schedule is so weak that it is really difficult to presume anything about them other than to say they are pretty good---but that is it.  I think they will really struggle against NEWMAC opponents such as WPI, Clark and Babson who will recognize that they are very slow on the defensive end of the floor ( except for the freshman, Kates) and will attack them mercilessly.  The question for opponents of MIT, of course, will be whether or not they will be able to contain the MIT offense which has multiple options.   MIT is not ready to be put in a class with Williams, Middlebury or some of the other verifiably strong D3 teams just yet.    They are probably somewhere in the range of about 45th or so in terms of D3 rankings ( this, of course, is an intuitive ranking).  No defense, no rank high ranking.  Beat a couple of pretty good teams ( WPI, Clark for instance) and then maybe some consideration for national ranking.....until then, MIT is a year away.    They REALLY need to upgrade their schedule if they want to get some serious consideration as a top team.......get rid of the Newbury, Suffolk, Emerson, Lesley type teams....I'm sure there are some legitimate opponents out there who would like to play you in the first half of the season.   Why not a return to the Lopata Tournament for a start?

I disagree with you about MIT's hierarchy in the NEWMAC.  Who has WPI beat that is impressive?  They only have one win over a team with a winning record, Thomas.  Every other team they have played has a losing record at this point.  Clark has played a tougher schedule, but they too only have one win over a team with a winning record, Nichols (they have lost to both good teams they have played).  Babson is currently 3-5 with their only wins coming over Curry, King's and Emerson.  I think MIT will be just fine in the NEWMAC.  I dont see them being blown out by anybody in league play.  They are also better defensively than you are giving them credit for.  MIT has not given up more than 61 points in a non-overtime game this year.  You throw in a couple overtime games and the numbers go up slightly, but they are still only giving up 57.7 ppg on average, with opponents shooting 38% overall and outrebounding their opponents by 11.  I am sure Coach Anderson and the rest of the coaching staff would tell you that they are not where they need to be defensively yet, but they are not bad by any means.

Also, weak schedules early in the season are not just a NEWMAC thing, look at Middlebury, currently ranked 9 in the country, they have not beat a single team with a winning record yet. None.  They have only played 7 games, 6 of those d3, and their OWP is 0.40 (16-24). MITs OWP is 0.42 (31-43) to date. How do you know any more about Middlebury than you know about MIT?  Brandeis has essentially the same schedule as MIT to date, except they lost to UMD.  Brandeis has only beaten one team with a winning record, Clark (MIT has beaten two).  This is also not unique to the NE:  Mighty Wooster has not beaten a single team with a winning record this year, yet they are ranked #23 with 3 losses to the only 3 teams they have played with winning records.  So it is easy to bash a team, their schedule, etc. based on your "intuition", but when you look at other highly ranked teams in the region and even the country, MIT does not stack up all that unfavorably.

The fact is is that everything is relatively speculative at this point in the season. There are not many marquee games that give you a lot of info about how teams rank in the region, yet.  Salem State was supposed to be good, they were an NCAA round of 16 team, but they fell off.  Emerson was a preseason favorite in the GNAC, but have had a little trouble out of the gate, in part due to Jeremy Shannon being out a few games. Gordon (5-3) IS good, but they have a couple close loses and will win the CCC, in my opinion.  RPI's (6-1) only loss is to MIT.  So I dont think MIT's schedule was too weak coming into the season, but it may look that way now with the way Salem, and perhaps Emerson, has played.

Dont even get me started on your "intuitive" ranking.  What does that mean?  Intuitively, I feel that you looked only at MITs schedule when making some of these remarks and did not look at the schedules of some other highly ranked teams.  I think MIT will do just fine this year and, as you said, the future looks even brighter with so much young talent.

[Hugenerd]

MIT is really an unknown quantity at this point.  Their pre-conference schedule is so weak that it is really difficult to presume anything about them other than to say they are pretty good---but that is it.  I think they will really struggle against NEWMAC opponents such as WPI, Clark and Babson who will recognize that they are very slow on the defensive end of the floor ( except for the freshman, Kates) and will attack them mercilessly.  The question for opponents of MIT, of course, will be whether or not they will be able to contain the MIT offense which has multiple options.   MIT is not ready to be put in a class with Williams, Middlebury or some of the other verifiably strong D3 teams just yet.    They are probably somewhere in the range of about 45th or so in terms of D3 rankings ( this, of course, is an intuitive ranking).  No defense, no rank high ranking.  Beat a couple of pretty good teams ( WPI, Clark for instance) and then maybe some consideration for national ranking.....until then, MIT is a year away.    They REALLY need to upgrade their schedule if they want to get some serious consideration as a top team.......get rid of the Newbury, Suffolk, Emerson, Lesley type teams....I'm sure there are some legitimate opponents out there who would like to play you in the first half of the season.   Why not a return to the Lopata Tournament for a start?

By the way, MIT received the 27th most votes in the country last week, and will likely pick up some with their 3-0 week.  I think it is very feasible that they do get ranked this week for the first time ever.