MBB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

[Gregory Sager]

I have been lurking on this thread since last year when a relative of mine was being recruited by CCIW schools. He is now a freshman at one of the schools.

One thing he noticed that appeared to be different about CCIW schools relative to others recruiting him (e.g., Univ. of Chicago, UW-XXXX) was that all schools in the CCIW have JV teams and play a full JV conference schedule.

I am curious what this group thinks of the JV programs in the CCIW. Does anyone go to the games? Are they quality games? 

Just curious. I have enjoyed reading your comments.

DrN, CCIW junior varsity games don't usually draw a lot of people. For one thing, they tend to be played during the dinner hour. For another, the casual fan doesn't often get too worked up about JV players. Some schools place a heavy emphasis upon developing many of their better underclassmen on the JV team; others immediately throw all of their best underclassmen directly into the deep end of the pool on varsity, so the implication is that their JV players are mostly roster filler.

While the games aren't varsity quality, obviously, they're often very good. I've witnessed CCIW JV games that are comparable in terms of demonstrated skill level to some D3 and NAIA varsity games from lesser leagues I've seen.

A JV team can be a very useful asset, but to a certain extent it's a luxury as well. It constitutes an additional burden upon the basketball budget (transportation, support staff, etc.), and even though most JV teams practice with the varsity they also require squad-specific coaching time in and of themselves. If you're a head coach and you aren't using your JV team for developmental purposes (i.e., your JV players don't have much in the way of future varsity potential), it's difficult to justify allocating your program's limited time, energy, and money to it.

Also, JV teams are vulnerable to the numbers game. If your roster is short on players -- let's say fifteen healthy bodies or fewer -- it's difficult to field a JV team in addition to a varsity team. Remember, JV games count towards a player's number of contests in which he can participate (which is a maximum of 25 during the regular season). If your team is so short on players that your JV players have to double-dip on varsity, then you might have to cancel your JV season just to preserve the eligibility of your players. Also, when the roster is that small you may simply not have enough JV players to field a team. It's happened several times within the past few years; Illinois Wesleyan played without a JV team last year, Wheaton's gone without a JV team a couple times over the course of this decade, and Elmhurst and NPU have canceled JV seasons as well in the recent past. It's not unusual to see JV teams that only have seven or eight players suited up; I've seen Wheaton's JV play with six a couple of times.

I try to make every NPU JV game that I can, especially when the opponent is another CCIW JV team. I learn a lot about the league's freshmen and sophomore classes that way.

[Gregory Sager]

I have been trying to think of the youngest team I can recall to contend, and all I come up with is the 1999-00 Carthage team with freshmen Antoine McDaniel (who went on to be an All-American) and Rob Garnes (a 4-year CCIW 1st Teamer) as starters.  But like those IWU teams mentioned above, that Carthage team had an older star -- Jason Wiertel.

Yes, but Wiertel was himself only a sophomore. And a fourth starter, Greg Ktistou, was a new transfer that season, albeit one who had seen a healthy amount of playing time off the bench for Eastern Illinois the previous season. The only seasoned veteran in the starting lineup was the role player, center Bill Garner. That was a team that contended in spite of the fact that it had a grand total of one year's worth of starting time (and one year's worth of Carthage experience) among its four core players.

[north central]

Well  Dr N. it is kinda like Sager said they can be very benificial or it can be a burden on your budget if not used properly. For the most part I look at it like there will be probably 3 or 4 players per year on JV that will eventually contribute on varsity, but from what I have experienced  probably 60% of the players lose interest in basketball and dont play after JV.
Sometimes the quality of play is good but then again lets realize these are Division 3 players that cant even play on varsity at their d3 so its not like there is great talent on the floor. CCIW  JV teams are probably as talented as schools like Eureka or Blackburn or MacMurrays varsity teams

I have been lurking on this thread since last year when a relative of mine was being recruited by CCIW schools. He is now a freshman at one of the schools.

One thing he noticed that appeared to be different about CCIW schools relative to others recruiting him (e.g., Univ. of Chicago, UW-XXXX) was that all schools in the CCIW have JV teams and play a full JV conference schedule.

I am curious what this group thinks of the JV programs in the CCIW. Does anyone go to the games? Are they quality games? 

Just curious. I have enjoyed reading your comments.

[Titan Q]

Sometimes the quality of play is good but then again lets realize these are Division 3 players that cant even play on varsity at their d3 so its not like there is great talent on the floor.

Boy, that is not the brand of JV basketball I am used to watching.  In 2002-03, IWU's starting JV team was:

G Matt Arnold
G Jason Fisher
F Keelan Amelianovich
F Steve Schweer
C Cory Jones

The JV bench included Chris Jones, Mike McGraw, and Class A all-stater Mike McKean.

All five of these guys started at some point in their varsity career and, along with Adam Dauksas, formed a nucleus that won 2 CCIW titles and went to the Final Four.  Amelianovich, an all-stater, was the CCIW's M.O.P. his sophomore year, one year removed from JV, and became a 1st Team All-American.  Jason Fisher was a Class A all-stater the year before.

Or I remember this JV team from 1995-96 (a year the varsity went to Salem):

G Tony Pacetti
G Nathan Hubbard
F Matt Hoder
F Brent Niebrugge
C Andy Boyden

The bench included John Baines, among others.

The next year ('96-97), 4 of those guys started at some point and all were in the rotation, along with Bryan Crabtree and Korey Coon, on a national championship team.  Niebrugge, a high school all-stater at T-Town, became a CCIW MOP and All-American.

I remember watching Augustana grad Rick Harrigan, an all-stater from Brother Rice, play JV for Augustana in 2002-03 against IWU's Amelianovich-led JV team.  Harrigan, like Amelianovich, went on to be a CCIW M.O.P. and All-American.

To say that, "these are Division 3 players that cant even play on varsity at their d3 so its not like there is great talent on the floor" is very, very misleading.  I guess it depends on how good the school's overall basketball program is.  At the really good Division III schools, there is tremendous talent on JV teams.

[iwumichigander]

I am curious what this group thinks of the JV programs in the CCIW. Does anyone go to the games? Are they quality games? 

Overall the CCIW teams, whom can allocate resouces to a JV program (for all the cited reasons above), are good.  Attendance is normally low.  Match-ups by the usual CCIW contenders are good quality; and, most of those JV teams would be contenders in lesser quality conferences.   Heck, I have seen a few CCIW JV teams (albeit very few) that could compete (and even fewer that would win the title) in some other conferences.

I think JV is a program value add in most CCIW schools.  As TitanQ cited, it is rare a freshman, other than players blessed with special talents, starts at the college level in any college basketball program.  JV offers players the opportunity to learn the system, develop or improve skills, adjust to a higher level of play and adjust to college life experiences.  And, the adjustment to those college life experience together with a reality skill check is why, I think, most kids decide to continue in athletics or focus on why they are really at college - to get a degree.

[north central]

Sometimes the quality of play is good but then again lets realize these are Division 3 players that cant even play on varsity at their d3 so its not like there is great talent on the floor.

Boy, that is not the brand of JV basketball I am used to watching.  In 2002-03, IWU's starting JV team was:

G Matt Arnold
G Jason Fisher
F Keelan Amelianovich
F Steve Schweer
C Cory Jones

The JV bench included Chris Jones, Mike McGraw, and Class A all-stater Mike McKean.

All five of these guys started at some point in their varsity career and, along with Adam Dauksas, formed a nucleus that won 2 CCIW titles and went to the Final Four.  Amelianovich, an all-stater, was the CCIW's M.O.P. his sophomore year, one year removed from JV, and became a 1st Team All-American.  Jason Fisher was a Class A all-stater the year before.

Or I remember this JV team from 1995-96 (a year the varsity went to Salem):

G Tony Pacetti
G Nathan Hubbard
F Matt Hoder
F Brent Niebrugge
C Andy Boyden

The bench included John Baines, among others.

The next year ('96-97), 4 of those guys started at some point and all were in the rotation, along with Bryan Crabtree and Korey Coon, on a national championship team.  Niebrugge, a high school all-stater at T-Town, became a CCIW MOP and All-American.

I remember watching Augustana grad Rick Harrigan, an all-stater from Brother Rice, play JV for Augustana in 2002-03 against IWU's Amelianovich-led JV team.  Harrigan, like Amelianovich, went on to be a CCIW M.O.P. and All-American.

To say that, "these are Division 3 players that cant even play on varsity at their d3 so its not like there is great talent on the floor" is very, very misleading.  I guess it depends on how good the school's overall basketball program is.  At the really good Division III schools, there is tremendous talent on JV teams.

Titan  Q IWU's  JV program is the exception  but those kids, Boyden. Hubbard ., Niebrugge  were not that great as JV players and their experience on JV made them a lot better along with practicing with the varsity guys daily. Don't get me wrong those guys were good in high school but im just saying they improved alot on JV  which is and should be the purpose of JV.
Oh and by the way being a class A all stater does mean much to me because there are Class a all staters that would not see the floor on the top 10 teams in chicago.

Overall I think the JV programs are very benificial. I played the first 10 games on JV at Millikin and It was a confidence booster for me and as iwumichagander said it helped me get acclamated to the system and adjust to d 3 bball.

[cciwgrad]

Concuring with others I can add that having played CCIW JV myself, it was very benefitial to my game and confidence.  I can't remember our record but it was the most fun I ever had playing organized ball.  In my case, the true use of player "development" was installed.  Each of us [8 total] worked on portions of our game that needed improvement to get us to the next level.  Physical mistakes were tolerated, where mental mistakes were not.  The idea was to play just beyond your capabilities. And most of us exceeded those by the end of the season.  Plus we were lucky to have a "team" not individuals.  We were able to feed off and pick-up each other all the time.

As to having the JV program... why not.  Especially, beacuse conference JV games are a prelimary to the varsity game.  The question is how many to keep on the entire roster?  My take would be to have one varsity program with one set of practices... don't split them up.  Why not dress all 15 spots for varsity. You usually do not go more than 8-10 deep, so let the bottom 7 play JV.  So you could keep from 15-18 in the program which is not umanganable.

[WahooThunder]

The Wheaton season preview is now available here: http://athletics.wheaton.edu/News/mbball/2007/10/29/MBB-Preview.asp?path=mbball

[Gregory Sager]

Sometimes the quality of play is good but then again lets realize these are Division 3 players that cant even play on varsity at their d3 so its not like there is great talent on the floor.

Boy, that is not the brand of JV basketball I am used to watching.  In 2002-03, IWU's starting JV team was:

G Matt Arnold
G Jason Fisher
F Keelan Amelianovich
F Steve Schweer
C Cory Jones

The JV bench included Chris Jones, Mike McGraw, and Class A all-stater Mike McKean.

All five of these guys started at some point in their varsity career and, along with Adam Dauksas, formed a nucleus that won 2 CCIW titles and went to the Final Four.  Amelianovich, an all-stater, was the CCIW's M.O.P. his sophomore year, one year removed from JV, and became a 1st Team All-American.  Jason Fisher was a Class A all-stater the year before.

Or I remember this JV team from 1995-96 (a year the varsity went to Salem):

G Tony Pacetti
G Nathan Hubbard
F Matt Hoder
F Brent Niebrugge
C Andy Boyden

The bench included John Baines, among others.

The next year ('96-97), 4 of those guys started at some point and all were in the rotation, along with Bryan Crabtree and Korey Coon, on a national championship team.  Niebrugge, a high school all-stater at T-Town, became a CCIW MOP and All-American.

I remember watching Augustana grad Rick Harrigan, an all-stater from Brother Rice, play JV for Augustana in 2002-03 against IWU's Amelianovich-led JV team.  Harrigan, like Amelianovich, went on to be a CCIW M.O.P. and All-American.

To say that, "these are Division 3 players that cant even play on varsity at their d3 so its not like there is great talent on the floor" is very, very misleading.  I guess it depends on how good the school's overall basketball program is.  At the really good Division III schools, there is tremendous talent on JV teams.

Titan  Q IWU's  JV program is the exception  but those kids, Boyden. Hubbard ., Niebrugge  were not that great as JV players and their experience on JV made them a lot better along with practicing with the varsity guys daily. Don't get me wrong those guys were good in high school but im just saying they improved alot on JV  which is and should be the purpose of JV.
Oh and by the way being a class A all stater does mean much to me because there are Class a all staters that would not see the floor on the top 10 teams in chicago.

Overall I think the JV programs are very benificial. I played the first 10 games on JV at Millikin and It was a confidence booster for me and as iwumichagander said it helped me get acclamated to the system and adjust to d 3 bball.

You said that "it's not like there's great talent on the floor" on the JV level. You were clearly wrong. There often is great talent on the floor in a JV game. What JV players tend to lack is varsity-caliber skill level and experience, two things that are very, very different than talent. Skills development, as cciwgrad discussed, is a major part of what having a JV program is all about. Freshmen and sophomores get the opportunity to strengthen the weak parts of their games, especially because they get more personalized attention from a coach than they'd get if there was no JV and they were simply unused uniform-fillers among 15 to 20 members of a varsity program. And the experience gained from game situations on the JV level is obvious.

North Park has never tended to emphasize the JV team as a farm system as much as has Augustana and Illinois Wesleyan, not even when the Park was a national powerhouse, but there have been plenty of talented players who've worn North Park JV livery over the years. The most obvious example is Michael Harper, who was almost exclusively a JV player as a freshman in 1976-77. All Harper went on to do after that, of course, was win three CCIW MOP awards, three NABC All-American awards, an NABC D3 Player of the Year award, two D3 national tournament MVP awards, score over 1,800 points and grab over 1,100 rebounds in leading the Vikings to three national championships and three CCIW titles, play two years with the Portland Trailblazers, spend another decade as a star in the Spanish and French premier leagues, and have his #33 retired by his alma mater. Not bad for a guy who, since he was originally a JV player, clearly must not have had great talent.

Dan Mulkerin (NPC '88) spent two years on the North Park JV team learning his craft, since he had only played one year of basketball at Chicago's Taft HS and as a big man was on a somewhat slower developmental curve, anyway. As a junior he finally made the varsity -- and promptly became a first-team All-CCIW center and a linchpin on the '87 national championship team. (He was an All-CCIW second-teamer as a senior the following year.) More recently, Brett Mathisen -- an All-CCIW third-teamer in 2004-05, and one of the better post players in the league on some very bad NPU teams -- was another example of a future star who began his North Park career as a JV player.

Contrary to your statement, I look at this year's likely NPU junior varsity players and I see a lot of talent. I see a lot of guys who have some skill areas that need improvement and who could use additional game experience, yes; but there's talent aplenty there. I fully expect some of them to contribute to the NPU varsity somewhere down the road. Anyone who shows up at 5:15 in the crackerbox to see Coach Aaron Schoof's NPU junior varsity this season will get to see some very good basketball players.

[tjcummingsfan]

Greg, could you give some more insight on what the team looked like Saturday?

[Gregory Sager]

It's hard to say anything based upon Saturday's intrasquad scrimmage, since it only lasted for a half and really wasn't much more than a pickup game (i.e., offensive sets were rudimentary at best and the ball didn't go into the post very often). But I'll give my general impressions based upon the limited amount that I've seen of these guys thus far:

NPU enters the season with two question-mark positions, and they're the two question marks that have tended to plague the Vikings over much of this decade: Point guard and center. The PG situation, I think, should turn out favorably for the Park. I'm less sanguine about the center situation. Sophomore Chris Brown, who was exclusively a JV player last season, has come a long way. The coaches have identified him as the team's most improved player since the end of last season. He's one of those sub-six-foot waterbugs with wings on his feet that come around every few years at NPU, but last year he was playing too fast, and his decisionmaking suffered. He's now gotten to the point where he sees and thinks the game as fast as his feet are moving, which makes him a viable varsity asset. He's also a terrific defender. Freshman Bruce Durham's game is much like Brown's, except that he's a little more scoring-oriented. The coaches seem to think that they have a "1 and a 1A" situation at the point, which bodes well. The only thing that Brown and Durham lack is varsity experience; however, that is a considerable handicap to have at that particular position. The most experienced PG on the team is sophomore Dan Oziminski; the coaches continue to really like his potential, and he may yet figure into the rotation as well.

Center hasn't worked itself out quite as nicely yet. It's no longer a vacuum of size and/or talent the way that it all-too-frequently was in the latter stages of the Rees Johnson era, but no one has really stepped forward to claim the job yet. Junior Mike Ventura is a solid, hard-nosed defender, but he's not a scorer. Sophomore Glenn Woodside has enormous potential, but the coaches are still trying to get him to tap into it. He needs to up his intensity level as well. Freshman Phil Schniedermeier is coming on very strong. He's still raw at the offensive end, but his size, rebounding and work ethic have made him a candidate for a lot of varsity playing time in the middle. My guess is that we'll see a lot of center-by-committee, at least at first, with athletic sophomore Jorge Gonzalez a part of the mix as well when the Vikings want a small, quick lineup.

Sophomore Nick Williams is poised to become one of the stars of the CCIW. I think that all seven opposing coaches in the CCIW will start their game-planning against NPU around trying to stop Williams. His inside-outside game is phenomenal, and he has a scorer's mentality. The key for him is to maintain the consistency required of a star player; the key for the rest of the team is to make it easier for him to do that by doing their own jobs. For senior Jason Gordon, that means stepping up to be the all-around player all of us at NPU have thought he could be since he began his Vikings career. Now that his knee is fully healed, he'll have that chance. For sophomore Joe Capalbo that means maintaining his rep as perhaps the most dangerous three-point shooter in the league; for sophomore Antonio Stevens, it means continuing to improve his outside shot to complement his skills as a driver, defender, and perimeter rebounder. And for Jay Alexander, it means that he has to show leadership, steadiness under pressure, improved defense, and a willingness to do whatever is necessary on a given night, whether it's scoring or just doing the little things, for the team to succeed.

The new guys -- junior forward Jon Chimino as well as Schniedermeier, Durham, and Gonzalez -- need to be integrated into the rotation and know their roles. Paul Brenegan has more depth than he's ever had, and that not only means sorting out the available minutes but also keeping his players happy and helping each of them to understand his role on the team -- from Williams on down to senior guard Ed Whitaker, who's there mostly to provide depth and experience.

My guess is that this is the thirteen players who will at least start the season dressing for varsity, with a couple of the JV players dressing for home varsity games as well. Among projected JV players, my guess is that sophomore guard Lukas Dahlstrom and freshman forward Christian Alsing are the two most likely to see the floor for the varsity this season -- although the coaches are very high on such freshmen as Clayton Cahill, Kendall Greer, and Nick Hoekstra. Those are guys whom I could see emerging as solid varsity players in a year or two.

[und63]

Just heard the Titan Green and White scrimmage is Thursday evening.

Anyone out there that knows the starting time?  Thanks

[Titan Q]

Just heard the Titan Green and White scrimmage is Thursday evening.

Anyone out there that knows the starting time?  Thanks

7:00pm

[hoops2007]

anyone hear how Millkin's intersquad event went?

[north central]

Sometimes the quality of play is good but then again lets realize these are Division 3 players that cant even play on varsity at their d3 so its not like there is great talent on the floor.

Boy, that is not the brand of JV basketball I am used to watching.  In 2002-03, IWU's starting JV team was:

G Matt Arnold
G Jason Fisher
F Keelan Amelianovich
F Steve Schweer
C Cory Jones

The JV bench included Chris Jones, Mike McGraw, and Class A all-stater Mike McKean.

All five of these guys started at some point in their varsity career and, along with Adam Dauksas, formed a nucleus that won 2 CCIW titles and went to the Final Four.  Amelianovich, an all-stater, was the CCIW's M.O.P. his sophomore year, one year removed from JV, and became a 1st Team All-American.  Jason Fisher was a Class A all-stater the year before.

Or I remember this JV team from 1995-96 (a year the varsity went to Salem):

G Tony Pacetti
G Nathan Hubbard
F Matt Hoder
F Brent Niebrugge
C Andy Boyden

The bench included John Baines, among others.

The next year ('96-97), 4 of those guys started at some point and all were in the rotation, along with Bryan Crabtree and Korey Coon, on a national championship team.  Niebrugge, a high school all-stater at T-Town, became a CCIW MOP and All-American.

I remember watching Augustana grad Rick Harrigan, an all-stater from Brother Rice, play JV for Augustana in 2002-03 against IWU's Amelianovich-led JV team.  Harrigan, like Amelianovich, went on to be a CCIW M.O.P. and All-American.

To say that, "these are Division 3 players that cant even play on varsity at their d3 so its not like there is great talent on the floor" is very, very misleading.  I guess it depends on how good the school's overall basketball program is.  At the really good Division III schools, there is tremendous talent on JV teams.

Titan  Q IWU's  JV program is the exception  but those kids, Boyden. Hubbard ., Niebrugge  were not that great as JV players and their experience on JV made them a lot better along with practicing with the varsity guys daily. Don't get me wrong those guys were good in high school but im just saying they improved alot on JV  which is and should be the purpose of JV.
Oh and by the way being a class A all stater does mean much to me because there are Class a all staters that would not see the floor on the top 10 teams in chicago.

Overall I think the JV programs are very benificial. I played the first 10 games on JV at Millikin and It was a confidence booster for me and as iwumichagander said it helped me get acclamated to the system and adjust to d 3 bball.

You said that "it's not like there's great talent on the floor" on the JV level. You were clearly wrong. There often is great talent on the floor in a JV game. What JV players tend to lack is varsity-caliber skill level and experience, two things that are very, very different than talent. Skills development, as cciwgrad discussed, is a major part of what having a JV program is all about. Freshmen and sophomores get the opportunity to strengthen the weak parts of their games, especially because they get more personalized attention from a coach than they'd get if there was no JV and they were simply unused uniform-fillers among 15 to 20 members of a varsity program. And the experience gained from game situations on the JV level is obvious.

North Park has never tended to emphasize the JV team as a farm system as much as has Augustana and Illinois Wesleyan, not even when the Park was a national powerhouse, but there have been plenty of talented players who've worn North Park JV livery over the years. The most obvious example is Michael Harper, who was almost exclusively a JV player as a freshman in 1976-77. All Harper went on to do after that, of course, was win three CCIW MOP awards, three NABC All-American awards, an NABC D3 Player of the Year award, two D3 national tournament MVP awards, score over 1,800 points and grab over 1,100 rebounds in leading the Vikings to three national championships and three CCIW titles, play two years with the Portland Trailblazers, spend another decade as a star in the Spanish and French premier leagues, and have his #33 retired by his alma mater. Not bad for a guy who, since he was originally a JV player, clearly must not have had great talent.

Dan Mulkerin (NPC '88) spent two years on the North Park JV team learning his craft, since he had only played one year of basketball at Chicago's Taft HS and as a big man was on a somewhat slower developmental curve, anyway. As a junior he finally made the varsity -- and promptly became a first-team All-CCIW center and a linchpin on the '87 national championship team. (He was an All-CCIW second-teamer as a senior the following year.) More recently, Brett Mathisen -- an All-CCIW third-teamer in 2004-05, and one of the better post players in the league on some very bad NPU teams -- was another example of a future star who began his North Park career as a JV player.

Contrary to your statement, I look at this year's likely NPU junior varsity players and I see a lot of talent. I see a lot of guys who have some skill areas that need improvement and who could use additional game experience, yes; but there's talent aplenty there. I fully expect some of them to contribute to the NPU varsity somewhere down the road. Anyone who shows up at 5:15 in the crackerbox to see Coach Aaron Schoof's NPU junior varsity this season will get to see some very good basketball players.

Well Sager I think we have different definitions of what talent is. From my perspective Talent is skills plus athletic ability.  Skills are your shooting,passing and ball handling ability.  For example Larry Bird was not talented, he just was the most skilled player probably ever. Jordan was talented.  so from my definition there is usually not great talent on the court in JV  but there may be a ton of potential. Usually what i see at JV games are players that are really skilled but not athletic or strong enough to play varsity or players who are very athletic or physically inposing but lack skills. Whats your definition of talent.