MBB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

[Mr. Ypsi]

One of the guys in the NESCAC board is still hoping that they'll have an outside chance at getting four teams in the tournament now that its expanded.

I assume that's an impossibility, but with the way the CCIW is performing early, do you think that its even a possibility here in d3 heaven?

It's probably POSSIBLE, but the odds are extremely remote due to a deep league and a double round-robin schedule.  Just from playing each other, the top four teams will have a total of 12 losses (plus 3 more in the conference tourney).  IF we had a league where the bottom half NEVER beat the top half (which of course we don't), and IF the top half went near perfect in the pre-conference (unlikely with the tough schedules most conference teams play), then MAYBE, but I would still doubt it!

[augiedad]

Hoops, this CCIW fan sees just about zero chance at 4 teams in, but a very good chance of 3.  If IWU, Elmhurst, and Augustana do as well as I think they will in the league this year, they'll all have a great chance.  In the CCIW regular season I see:

IWU 13-1
Augustana 11-3
Elmhurst 10-4

Augie is going to be 11-0 or 10-1 heading into the conference because they don't play anybody but UW-Stout.  IWU will most likely be 10-0, and Elmhurst 9-2 or 8-3.  I think North Central will have a great non-conf record but then just an average CCIW season.

[augiedad]

Regarding Carthage, what exactly is the gameplan up there??  Who has Bosko recruited since Wiertel, McDaniel, Garnes, Powell? Is the plan to just keep rolling in these odd fitting transfer parts in hopes they finally come together one of these days for one CCIW title, then time to go out and find more transfers for the next run?

I thought Bosko was going to build a consistent power up there after that Wiertel group was in.  That's not the case.

[iwumichigander]

... with the way the CCIW is performing early, do you think that its even a possibility here in d3 heaven?

No.  Even with the tournment expansion I do not see any conference getting four teams in this year.  Too much NCAA politics for that to happen this year.  I do think CCIW will get two teams in the tournament - the AQ and likely the 2 or 3 conference finisher with a dependency on their finish in the conference tournament. 

I think there is an outside chance of getting three teams in only if, for example using Elmhurst, a team ranked early, good in region record, stumbles mid-conference, finishes 3rd to make the conference tournament and then finishes a strong second in the CCIW tournament.  For that to happen, I also would think the #2 conference team would have to have as good or better an in region record, simply stumble the first game of the CCIW tournament and then have a strong finish with a win.

In other words, a scenario similiar to last season - IWU wins the CCIW, Wheaton & Elmhurst tied for 2nd (W-L not tie breakers)  in CCIW, and one game seperates them in the overall loss column.  Elmhurst did not make it in but certainly deserving with an 8 - 1 conference finish.

[iwumichigander]

Looking ahead to the CCIW conference schedule - I think North Central deserves the "short straw" award. 

Last season, the Cardinals got clobbered in a 7 out 8 game road stretch 1/15 - 2/12.  I thought that was one of the reason the Cardinals struggled last year (1 - 7 during the stretch).

This year, however, North Central starts the CCIW with another 8 out of 9 game road stretch starting off with IWU @ the Shirk, a non-conference road game (who schedules a non-conference game in the middle of the CCIW season?), a lone home game against Elmhurst and then comes off the road to play IWU @ the Hangar.  Ouch!

A really, really tough CCIW schedule for the Cardinals.

[cardinalpride]

Hoops, this CCIW fan sees just about zero chance at 4 teams in, but a very good chance of 3.  If IWU, Elmhurst, and Augustana do as well as I think they will in the league this year, they'll all have a great chance.  In the CCIW regular season I see:

IWU 13-1
Augustana 11-3
Elmhurst 10-4

Augie is going to be 11-0 or 10-1 heading into the conference because they don't play anybody but UW-Stout.  IWU will most likely be 10-0, and Elmhurst 9-2 or 8-3.  I think North Central will have a great non-conf record but then just an average CCIW season.

Looking ahead to the CCIW conference schedule - I think North Central deserves the "short straw" award. 

Last season, the Cardinals got clobbered in a 7 out 8 game road stretch 1/15 - 2/12.  I thought that was one of the reason the Cardinals struggled last year (1 - 7 during the stretch).

This year, however, North Central starts the CCIW with another 8 out of 9 game road stretch starting off with IWU @ the Shirk, a non-conference road game (who schedules a non-conference game in the middle of the CCIW season?), a lone home game against Elmhurst and then comes off the road to play IWU @ the Hangar.  Ouch!

A really, really tough CCIW schedule for the Cardinals.

Augidad and IWU,  I will let both of you know how NCC will fair in the CCIW this year after they have played their non-conference road games against Adian College, Hawaii Trip (Ripon), and at Franklin. 

IWU,  the AU non-conference road game in the middle of CCIW play you're referring to was scheduling conflict.  That game was supposed to be played this month. 

One of the guys in the NESCAC board is still hoping that they'll have an outside chance at getting four teams in the tournament now that its expanded.

I assume that's an impossibility, but with the way the CCIW is performing early, do you think that its even a possibility here in d3 heaven?

Hoops fan,  I'm in agreement with the other gentlemen that 4 teams are probably out of the question.  2 teams are a lock, 3 teams are possible.   The only scenario where I see the committee given 4 teams consideration is if all 4 teams have strong overall records (20-5 or better) with no more than 3 or 4 conference losses, and the 1 & 2 seeds in the conference tourny get knocked off by the the 3 & 4 seeds with the 4th seed winning the title

[martin]

Even when the tournament goes to 64, I think it will be a fluky year when any conference gets 3 teams into the tournament.  I think the chances of four are infinitesimal.

In D1, there are 325 schools with 31 conferences getting AQs in a 65 team field.  That leaves 294 schools competing for 34 slots - which mostly go to 5 conferences.

In D3 in 2006, there are 382 men's teams eligible for the championship.  In a few years, that number will be over 400 when all the provisionals start rolling in.  There are 37 AQs.  There are 4 spots reserved for the 41 pool B teams.  This year, there are 18 pool C slots - a total of 59.  Those 18 will be spread over the 341 schools not already in the tournament.  I doubt that any conference would get 3 (one sixth) of those slots. While we may think highly of CCIW hoops, there are folks around the country who also think quite highly of their basketball.

Consider that the WIAC - probably the toughest conference in the country - has not had two teams in the tournament since 2000.    

[martin]

In 2001, the CCIW did get three teams into the tournament.  The team on the bubble, IWU (with a 19-6 record, 10-4 in the CCIW) did the best in the tournament, finishing third in the country.

The biggest fluke that happened that year was few (if any upsets) in conference tournaments.  So Pool C spots did not go to regular season champions that lost in their conference tournaments.  Also, the CCIW was exceptionally strong that year.  Elmhurst won the championship (21-4, 12-2) followed by Carthage (21-4, 11-3).  IWU had some bad early season losses but closed strong, including wins over both Carthage and Elmhurst.

2001 was probably Pat's favorite year - Catholic won the championship.  It was also the best year for D-3 hoops in the Chicago area.  The area was so strong, Carthage got sent to Ohio Northern.  The two NIIC teams in the tourney were Aurora and Benedictine (both pool B I think) were strong.  They lost first round games to Wash U and UWEC but gave strong showings.  IWU went out to Grinnell for a lot of running, then beat Wartburg.  Elmhurst beat Wash U by a point to make it through to the regional.  Chicago hosted the regional after beating UWEC.  The fourth team was Lewis & Clark  (from Seattle?).  I remember their fans saying they felt like the party crashers - the other three teams knew each other so well.

While the old Crown Fieldhouse was not the Shirk, it was still a great atmosphere.  IWU got by Elmhurst and then Chicago to advance to Salem.

I get wistful thinking of that year - it was a great time.

[Mr. Ypsi]

Even now (and certainly if we go to 64 teams) I don't think that 3 teams will be all that unusual - remember, that only means 2 Cs plus the A.  3 teams will probably usually occur because there are 2 outstanding teams but an upset winner in the tourney.

But 4 teams may NEVER happen (at least for a conference like ours - deep and double round-robin).  I checked the 4th place finishes for the last 10 years in the CCIW - only twice did the team finish as high as 9-5.  So unless they win the tourney (in which case they are in as an A), that means 6 in-region losses even if they run the non-conference, and 6 losses ain't gonna get the job done!

The only conceivable scenario IMO would be a 3-way tie for first (say, 11-3) and an upset winner in the tourney.  But even then I'd bet on one of the tri-champs getting the short end of the stick.

[sac]

Well if any conference is going to get four its the NESCAC.....first you don't play a round robin schedule thats a real bonus, second you play in one of the weakest regions in the country and pad the ol' ssi with a bunch of "good record" teams.

Actually it looks pretty easy on paper.

Now if we want to talk conferences that DESERVE to get 4 teams in .......thats a whole other subject.



My take on  Carthage......good talent, lots of athleticism, but have lapses of poor team play.   Not sure where Schlem fits into that team but they were without him this weekend in Holland.

[iwumichigander]

Augidad and IWU,  I will let both of you know how NCC will fair in the CCIW this year after they have played their non-conference road games against Adian College, Hawaii Trip (Ripon), and at Franklin. 

IWU,  the AU non-conference road game in the middle of CCIW play you're referring to was scheduling conflict.  That game was supposed to be played this month. 

Cardinalpride - Thanks for the clarification on the scheduling conflict.  Given the Cardinals remaining opponents currently are 14 -17; you probably do have to wait until NC plays IWU and Aurora back to back to get a solid feel for CCIW chances.

[martin]

Mr. Ypsi - you have to consider what others think of the CCIW.  Many do not appreciate the laudatory view that CCIW fans have of their conference.  The Massey rankings have always put the WIAC as the toughest conference followed by the CCIW.  Most would agree with that opionion.  UWSP has won the previous two national championships.  In both 2004 and 2005 it was not the regular season champion of the WIAC.  In 2004, UWSP finished second to River Falls.  UWSP won the conference tournament.  UWRF, with a 20-7 record and All American Rich Melzer, did not make the tournament.

In 2005, UWSP tied for first in the regular season with Plateville.  UWP had the number one seed in the WIAC so with no tournament, UWP gets the WIAC AQ.  UWSP won the WIAC tournament.  UWP, with a 19-7 record and regular season co-champion, stayed home.

In 2004, Wheaton finished second to IWU in the CCIW with an overall 21-4 record.  Wheaton did not make the field.  In 2003, three teams tied atop the CCIW with 11-3 records, IWU (21-4), Augustana (20-5) and Carthage (19-6).  Only IWU went to the tournament.

I think the more appropriate discussion is whether or not the CCIW gets a second team into the tournament - not 3 or 4.

[iwumichigander]

Martin - I did think Mr Ypsi was responding to the narrow question Hoopsfan asked about the CCIW chances.  Mr. Ypsi knows what others think of the CCIW; as do most CCIW posters that know most of those others are usually wrong. 

[dansand]

Augie is going to be 11-0 or 10-1 heading into the conference because they don't play anybody but UW-Stout.  

At the risk of being called Lou Holtz, I think Augie's going to have a tough time Wednesday. Coe has a good returning cast from a decent team last year and added big man Mike Kilburg who played with Dain Swetalla at Kirkwood CC last year. I haven't heard, but I'm sure Swetalla won't be able to go tonight, which will also hurt the Vikes, who haven't exactly been hitting on all cylinders so far.

[iwumichigander]

Augie is going to be 11-0 or 10-1 heading into the conference because they don't play anybody but UW-Stout.  

At the risk of being called Lou Holtz, I think Augie's going to have a tough time Wednesday. Coe has a good returning cast from a decent team last year and added big man Mike Kilburg

Well Lou, I did not disagree with you in the pick'em.  I initially picked Auggie until I took a look a Coe.  And I agree with Augiedad, another cupcake non-conference schedule which if combined with North Central's would be able to serve  CUPCAKES TO EVERYONE IN THE CCIW!

But then afterall, we don't have Diehard's cookies to fall back on this season 8)