MBB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

[Gregory Sager]

Seeing as there are few Wheaton posters, and none apparently at the game Saturday, I'll step in to comment about the situation discussed.
I will say that the removal was unnecessary, but not without reason.
The rule that I am sure the crazies were in violation of was their presence on the baseline during the half.  This is different  from the corners, and specifically is enforced in front of the section right under the basket during the game (halftime and pre/post it is not).  I have been asked on several occasions to walk up and around that section if I wanted to get over to the other side of the gym during a game.  It has been strictly enforced in the past, and my experience has only been on the Wheaton side.  I do not know about this game, as I was in the middle section on the south side of the gym.
It appeared to me that C-Train was trying to enforce this rule, and came into a confrontation with one or two of the North Park fans in particular.  As my eyes were not glued to what was going on, I did not see all of it, but someone I went to the game said that one of the fans that got kicked out was making "suck it" signs at C-Train.  As it was, C-Train seemed to not want to put up with it anymore, and so he went and got what appeared to me to be Public Safety, not the Wheaton Police.  There may have been some Wheaton Police there, but I definitely recognized some public safety officers, who were probably glad to stop writing parking tickets, come in out of the cold, and harass some other students, be it Wheaton or North Park.
As far as a double standard, it doesn't quite apply.  Wheaton fans were not occupying that space on the baseline under the basket: that is the place for the Wheaton cheerleaders.  I guess we got to put them somewhere.
One other possible reason for the removal of the fans was some history on that section of North Parkers.  In the game these two schools played back in 2001, Jeremiah Trusty, was fouled going to the basket and stumbled to the area right in front of the fans.  One fan (and I know this is not representative of the whole group) stood up and pushed Jeremiah back onto the floor in a very unsportsmanlike move.  If C-train was around for that game, he might of had that in mind, as I still remember it myself. 

For many of you North Parkers, I am a little bit familiar with school beyond my Wheaton experience.  I grew up in the Covenant Church out east, and my parents are still members.  My older brother even went to North Park for a little bit.  And yes, he applied to Wheaton and was rejected

I would make more post on Wheaton's games, but i won't be able to make several of them due to a Wednesday night grad class

Again, the incidents in question did not take place on the baseline. They took place on the walkway between the endline and the stands. Also, they did not take place while the game was going on. The first incident took place during halftime, when no players were on the floor, and the second incident took place during a timeout.

As for the use of the walkway being prohibited while the ball is in play, this is the first that I've heard of that rule -- and I've been going to games at Wheaton since long before the gym was reconfigured. I see people constantly using the walkway while the ball is in play, although those who are prudent and respectful of the game (as well as concerned for their own safety and that of the players) don't walk past the basket while the ball is in play at that end of the floor.

The Crazies argued, with some merit I might add, that there was indeed a double standard applied to them, since the Wheaton cheerleaders are no more a part of the game than any other fans. Since the rule ostensibly exists for safety purposes, it should apply to the Wheaton cheerleaders as well as to everyone else. And, again, safety wasn't really an issue at all as far as the activities of the Crazies were concerned, because they never left the stands while the ball was in play. As they argued, the Wheaton cheerleaders do not leave their spots on the walkway even when the ball is in play at that end of the floor.

I do not know which uniformed officers present were campus police and which ones were WPD. They all had their black jackets on. My guess is that at least two of them were campus police, since, as I said, they were there at the start of the game and I always see them there at every game. (I don't know how many campus police officers Wheaton College has on duty at any given moment; NPU always has two officers present on campus). But there were ten officers staring down the Crazies by the time that they started tossing them out, and I know that at least some of those ten were WPD.

As for the supposed "suck it" sign ... well, people will interpret gestures any way that they like in order to justify their side. I saw no such gestures, and I was a lot closer to the Crazies, and the exit where they were ushered out, than were almost all of the Wheaton fans.

[Gregory Sager]

Was I the only one in King Arena that heard the wheatie coach rip #21 a new butt hole? The biggest beef I had (sitting front row, I heard it loud and clear) with his screaming, shrieking approach was that he never actually told the poor kid what he did wrong. He just repeated at least a half dozen times how stupid the kid was.  That's pretty classless.

Just for the sake of clarity and my withering internet reputation, I wanted to quote myself and prove that nowhere did I say Coach Harris is classless.  I'm the first to admit that I may be the least informed poster on this site so I won't go around calling proven coaches names.  I do however completely disagree with his method of coaching in that particular situation.  I find it pretty repulsive.  I was probably sitting within 8-10 feet of the interaction and I'm confident in what I heard.  He very well may be a fantastic coach with an impeccable reputation (and who am I to tarnish that?) but I simply wanted to point out that I wasn't cool with that situation.  That's all.  Go ahead and continue smiting me for providing an opinion on a message board. 

I don't applaud or smite, but I wouldn't have smitten you for your comment even if I did. If you're not fully aware of coaching protocol during a game, then it certainly would appear that Harris's yelling at Berntsen was classless. Instead, I figured that I'd just try to explain why and how the Wheaton coaching staff must've operated in that situation, because as I said it's pretty standard for the head coach to vent by yelling something unconstructive at a player heading to the bench and then allow his assistant to turn the yelling into a teaching moment once the kid has a seat.

[Ralph Turner]

All of the whining over the North Park/King Arena fan incident is getting even more annoying than the pages and pages of debate after the North Central/NPU game regarding the officiating.

We have one of the most entertaining races in years unfolding and 4 more big games coming up in 48 hours.  Basketball talk would be more entertaining for all.

What a fuddy-duddy!

Wanting to talk CCIW basketball!?!

The anthropological discussions of the tribal behaviors of Sonic Atmospheric Disturbances formerly known as Crusaders is quite interesting.   

[Gregory Sager]

First time post this season.

Good to have you back, Lanny. I was wondering where you had been.

[Gregory Sager]

Notwithstanding, North Park would be well within it rights, therefore, to ask Wheaton students to refrain from attending the upcoming game in Chicago, as their presence at the contest might lead to them being exposed to the same level of indecent, profane, lewd and pornographic behavior and it might hurt their sensibilities and thus corrupt their continued righteous witness.

Quite true, but since April has graduated from Wheaton (as well as that far-less-enthusiastic sidekick of hers whom she once dragged to a WC @ NPU game), I don't think that there's much danger of any Wheaton student being exposed to anything in the crackerbox. The exceptions, besides the players and team manager of course, are the WETN broadcasters ... and as budding journalists they should learn that sensibilities get in the way of the job and should be jettisoned as soon as possible.

[Gregory Sager]

As I have stated here many times this year, I think the league is down, without question. 

Unless you're speaking strictly in terms of how this year compares to last year -- and I don't sense that you are, since you brought 2005-06 into the discussion -- I have to disagree with you about the league being down, Bob.

With Carthage's concluding victory over IIT last Monday, the CCIW finished 62-26 (.705) in non-conference regular season play. Here's how that measures up among the past ten seasons of cumulative non-conference play:

season	W	L	pct
1998-99	59	34	.634
1999-00	63	26	.708
2000-01	75	25	.750
2001-02	56	32	.636
2002-03	61	30	.670
2003-04	62	28	.678
2004-05	63	27	.700
2005-06	63	34	.649
2006-07	66	22	.750
2007-08	62	26	.705

As you can see, this season's performance thus far has been slightly above average. And it's hard to imagine that the postseason will make it dip below that; last season the CCIW had a non-conference performance in the regular season that tied its all-time best ... and then the league promptly bowed out in March with an 0-1 record.

What's more, if you look at the trend over the past ten years, this season's cumulative non-con performance is even more impressive. In the seasons spanning 1997-98 thru 2006-07 the CCIW had a total non-conference winning percentage of .670; this season thus far our eight teams are 35 percentage points above that pace.

The league isn't as good at the top as it usually is; I think that we've reached a consensus on that. I think that a lot of that has to do with the dearth of seniors in the CCIW this season, of which I've spoken before. But I would strongly argue that the league is better at the bottom than it usually is, as is witnessed by the fact that all eight teams finished above .500 in non-conference play (which very rarely happens). The league should be measured from top to bottom when assessing its overall strength, not simply by whether there are any potential Final Four teams among the eight CCIW squads.

[Gregory Sager]

But I would strongly argue that the league is better at the bottom than it usually is, as is witnessed by the fact that all eight teams finished above .500 in non-conference play (which very rarely happens).

To elaborate upon my previous point:

The eight schools that currently comprise the league have been together within the circuit since the 1967-68 basketball season, which makes a total of 41 seasons (including this one). In 36 of those 41 seasons, at least one of the eight current CCIW programs finished below .500 in non-conference play. The only seasons in which each of the eight finished at least .500 in non-conference play were 1976-77, 1988-89, 2000-01, 2006-07, and this season. The only three years out of those 41 that all eight teams have finished with winning records in non-conference play, as opposed to merely finishing .500, were 2000-01, 2006-07, and this season. So, historically, the across-the-board success of the CCIW in non-conference play as seen this season has been a very rare occurrence.

[Titan Q]

Greg, the Massey Index has the CCIW behind the UAA, NESCAC, and ODAC...

http://www.mratings.com/rate.php?lg=cb&sub=III&mid=1#conf

The CCIW has typcially been #1 or #2.

I agree the bottom of the league is better than it has been recently and there is certainly more parity, but I still think the CCIW, like the WIAC, is down.  There isn't a single team this year as good as the worst of the top four in 2005-06 (whoever that was), between IWU's Final Four team, CCIW champ Augustana, conference tournament champ North Central, and Elmhurst.  For me, strength at the top is significant factor in determining if the league is "up" or "down"...in addition to the strength at the bottom and parity.

[Scream]

Was I the only one in King Arena that heard the wheatie coach rip #21 a new butt hole? The biggest beef I had (sitting front row, I heard it loud and clear) with his screaming, shrieking approach was that he never actually told the poor kid what he did wrong. He just repeated at least a half dozen times how stupid the kid was.  That's pretty classless.

This is the first time I've ever heard Bill Harris called "classless."

If Bill Harris is classless then guys like Bosko and Giavonni must be Satan. That's one of the more ridiculous things I've seen on here.

Its also the first time I have heard a coach labeled as "classless" for coaching his players.

Here's the deal: yelling at a player without telling them why you're yelling is not coaching.  For the record, I don't know enough about Harris to call him classless, I just think that particular situation was pretty sad and definitely lacking class.

Well, you did call him classless so I guess we accept your apology.

Also, I think you should know enough about coaching to know that during the battle (read: game) is not always the time to stop and correct a player. Sometimes it is, sometimes it isn't. typically a coach chooses when to teach his players and just like a professor won't stop you in the middle of a midterm exam and explain why you missed a question, a coach may not stop in the middle of a game to explain what you did wrong. Be assured, however, that player was instructed at some point what he did wrong. You can't take one incident out of context and label a coach "classless". that's pretty weak.

What typically happens in this situation is that a head coach might yell at a player as he comes off of the floor but then, as usee said, he'll turn back quickly to the business at hand of running his team; meanwhile, an assistant coach will then take the offending player aside and go over in detail what he did wrong. I didn't see the play that you described, Scream, but my guess is that after Bill Harris finished yelling at Jeremy Berntsen and turned his attention back to the game, either Nate Frank or Owen Handy took Berntsen aside and explained to him what he had done wrong.

That's not a classless act; it's simply the way that most coaching staffs handle instructing their players in the heat of the moment when the players return to the bench.

Greg, I don't have a problem with what you described but that wasn't what happened.  #21 didn't come out of the game, he was at the other end of the floor and after a foul was called on Wheaton leading to foul shots for Park, Harris yelled at him to come over and proceeded to hurl yelling insults.  There was no coaching or correcting done by him or an asst coach.

It just rubbed me the wrong way as a fan of collegiate sports, a former athlete, and as someone who has coached.  I never imagined that my "rant" would go on for half a dozen pages, I just wanted to discuss it and voice my discomfort with the situation. 

Let's get back to "basketball."

[cardinalfanrochelle]

Titan Q,
           If you are tired over the debate on the NP/KIng Arena and the NCC/NPU
officals, for us non Titan fans add the endless supply of Titan facts, stats, and other usefull Titan information that the faithful thrive on may be annoying also.

[cardinalfanrochelle]

I read all the postings on the CCIW chat and how the posters are pumping up their teams which is good, but if you want to talk stats, how many teams in the CCIW have lost the bulk scoring by graduation and transfer like NCC who lost 1,529 points out of 1,854 points total points at a game avg of 71.3 for2006/07 to avg 74.1 for the 2007/08 season.Add nine new players and still win games and be considered a tough team. I welcome all information the posters are willing to provide

[mwunder]

I welcome all information the posters are willing to provide

Yet, in your post previous to the one quoted above, you essentially rip on one of the most knowing and respected posters for sharing too much information?

You can't have it both ways....

[aceon2]

First time post this season. Random thoughts:

1) When is the last time the best player in the CCIW has been a freshman? Never I would assume. If my assumption is true, then the logical assumption is that the league is down/weak.

2) I've seen only 3 league games (IWU vs. N.C., M.U., and EC). But from what I have seen and from conservations with others who have seen all of the CCIW teams, my opinion is that Elmhurst has the most talent. But that's not unusual. And usually Elmhurst manages a way to squander its opportunities (referring to the few successes Elmhurst has had in NCAA tournament appearances).

1) As to your first point, having seen Raymond and Djurickovic, I would have to agree with Q that right now I would take Raymond strictly because of his shooting ability.  If Djurickovic develops a consistent 3 point shot, this kid could be the best player in CCIW recent memory.  Knowing the way the kid works on his game in the gym, and the way that Bosko is an extremely intelligent coach, leads me to believe that is exactly what Steve will work on this off season.  Going back a few pages and referring to whether or not Steve is being held back by his dad coaching and him playing at the d3 level, I would tend to say yes.  Steve could be doing many of the same things that he is doing at a division 1 level.  Steve could play right now for a Northwestern or a Northern Illinois and average 12-15 points a game.  The fact that he is only 165 doesnt hurt him, it helps him because he continues to get bumped and knocked to the floor which in return yields a foul call.  Raymond on the other hand may take a similar hit and plays through the contact, which may or may not yield that same foul call.  Either way, they are both great players and fun to watch the way they take over and lead their teams.

2) As far as your post of Elmhurst having the most talent, I may politely disagree.  While I agree that Ruch and Burks are both very good players, after those two the talent just isnt there.  Carthage played them in a box with one man fronting Ruch the whole game.  They essentially let everyone other than Burks shoot the basketball.  Not just from 3 but from 16-17 ft.  Everyone talked about how great of a coaching job Bosko did that game, and it turned out that the players not name Ruch or Burks cannot beat you.  I would tend to say that Carthage or Wheaton are the most talented teams from early conference play.  Take a look at the PPG in conference that was just posted by Q.  Carthage has 4 players averaging double figures, Wheaton has 3.  Going along with that these two teams also have the two best players in the league that can at any moment take over the game.  Just some observations...  Should be another fun week...

[RedMan1]

Not to sound rude, but why does it matter if he develops a consistent 3 point shot when the guy penetrates to the whole and makes a ton of shots while getting fouled? If Steve puts up 25-30 a game I don't think many people care if he can consistently shoot the 3. You also have to look at who Steve has around him, Fendley, Bowens, Schmerdiak. All can shoot the 3.

[mwunder]

Not to sound rude, but why does it matter if he develops a consistent 3 point shot when the guy penetrates to the whole and makes a ton of shots while getting fouled? If Steve puts up 25-30 a game I don't think many people care if he can consistently shoot the 3. You also have to look at who Steve has around him, Fendley, Bowens, Schmerdiak. All can shoot the 3.

Because, if he can't hit the 3, people are going to sag back off of him and pack all 5 guys in the lane and make him shoot that shot.  Basketball 101.  Take away the comfort zone.  He actually passed up an open look on a break from the right side on Sat.  He got it wide open in the right corner, looked at the rim, passed it back to the right wing and got it right back...took the still open shot and missed.  He had a chance to think about it just a bit and didn't pull the trigger the first time, then when he got it back and let 'er rip, he was still thinking about it.  Hitting that J is something that he's going to have to work on.  It will only make the rest of his game that much better.


I'm happy as heck that Steve D decided to play for his dad at Carthage.  Am I ready to hand him the keys to the kingdom yet?  Nope.  He hit some very tough shots against Augie on Sat night this is true.  But, he has some weak spots in his game too.  He's not all that big physically and he will wear down over the course of a tough CCIW season.  Touching the ball as much as he does will lead to him getting pushed, shoved, hacked, etc for 37 minutes a night.  He favors the right side of the floor and didn't go to his left with nearly the same effectiveness.

I'm going to go against the grain and say that 2113 is safe.