MBB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

[Gregory Sager]

I'm a baseball player, and I have a simple question.

Why is it so hard to win on the road in basketball?

The court dimensions never change, nor does the wind, the temperature, or the precipitation.

I have to be honest...I don't buy the whole "home court advantage" thing.   Seems like a cop-out to me. 

Put the biscuit in the basket.  That's the name of the game.  And the basket hasn't changed in a while...since they stopped using ladders to pick it out and someone came up with the great idea to put a hole in the bottom of it.

I think basketball players have it easy, when it comes to "going on the road".

I'm sure this will be met with much agreement....just kidding.

The historical record is quite clear that you are wrong.  Facts are facts, and the home team wins considerably more often than not.  Now, as to why...

1. The crowd (as a baseball player, maybe you didn't know about that one!  oops, sorry! )

2. The dimensions of the court remain the same, as well as the other factors you mentioned (hopefully!), but all courts have 'dead' spots, not all backboards or baskets are identical in tension, the lighting varies, the shooting background varies, etc.

3. Going to or from at least the 4 non-Chicago-land schools makes a difference; while this is true for all sports, the extra few inches of the average basketball player may make the travel even more of a concern.

4. Did I mention the home crowd?  And while it shouldn't make a difference, persistent rumor has it that some officials may be affected by that (as well as some players).

I'm sure I've forgotten some things that others can add.

Good points all around, Chuck, and #2 is particularly noteworthy. I've related the story before about how Bosko Djurickovic, when he was North Park's head coach, used to have his teams practice at the Broadway Armory the week of the NPC @ NCC game rather than in the crackerbox, so that the Vikings could get used to shooting at an open background like the airplane hangar's.

But the "dead spots" comment is, uh, spot-on as well. Mike "Sonny" Parker, the point guard on North Park's 1986-87 national championship team, knew that Von Steuben PG Jeff Pearson would be following in his dad's footsteps and would don the royal blue and gold when he got to NPC ... so Sonny got a basketball and took Jeff around the floor of the crackerbox, showing him every dead spot and how it affected the bounce and rotation of the ball. Sonny used to try to steer opposing PGs into those dead spots and attempt to induce steals that way. And those who have been around the league for a long time remember how the airplane hangar used to have a rubberized floor rather than a wooden one, so the ball had extra spring in it and would spin differently back up to your hand when you dribbled it. NCC had a point guard on their great mid-'80s teams named Greg Papacosta whom I can remember constantly lunging at the ball in the early stages of every game as opposing ballhandlers unconsciously felt a little uncomfortable with their dribbles.

And, of course, there's my favorite shooting-background story: Opposing free-throw shooters in Fred Young Fieldhouse would have to focus in order to keep their minds on the task at hand whenever the IWU students sitting in the endline section would hold up Playboy centerfolds in order to distract the shooters. That trick always cracked me up.

[RedMan1]

Just off topic... How would you rank the CCIW student section fans?? I am one, and am at every home game and some road games... I just want to know about the student sections, how are they all over the conference? I hear Doctor Bonn ( Carthage AD) received a letter from someone important at IWU about something happening after the game.  If anyone knows anything about it I would like to hear it....

As a student I think its great that Carthage has a packed place.

I would rank IWU as the toughest place to play......

What would be number 2

Also, can Carthage keep this winning streak going.... I have seen bad basketball with a very talented team the past 3 years, it is nice to watch a good "team" win, but what do you think coaches will do to stop "little Bosko" If you stop him, how do you stop Fendley, or Bowens. Bowens knows how to take a game over because he did it the past year.

Also, Who do you see winning conference???

[AndOne]

REDMENFAN,
                   Anytime you look at the stats of a team or player then you see a jump by 10 in any area in one game it sends a red flag out and NCC isn't a real physical team with 4 players fouling out, that sir is not the norm. Let Steve have his shots is not a bad plan but you better shut down the others.Add back in the 4 players who fouled out a different outcome would have happened, shame on the hissy officals the game could have been called differently. I heard all summer how physical the CCIW was and then you get a player who goes to the line 27 times in a game, if it was as physical as led to believe Steve would have been in a wheelchair or had a walker at the line.Not once did he get hammered in the lane just little love taps to let him know he was being watched. ::

I guess if not for the anti-NCC sentiment from the CCIW officials, the Cards would be undefeated in the league. 

TQ---

As a matter of fact:
1. During the Benjy Taylor years, I believe there was an anti-NCC sentiment among the refs. Quite possibly, deservedly so.
2. Upon several occasions this season, the NCC Cardinals have thoroughly demonstrated that they have firmly grasped the principles of the Tomahawk Chop. Many of their fouls have been both unintelligent and obvious. Many are also the result of their physical style of play.
3. I don't know if an anti-Ncc sentiment exists today or not. If so, it couldn't be proven anyway. However, if you would have seen each of the NCC CCIW games as I have, I firmly believe that your opinion would be that the Cards have had more questionable calls go against them than have been called in their favor. Sure, NC has gotten away with its share of both calls and non calls, but overall, they've been the victim of more poor calls, on both ends of the floor, than have their opponents. Thats JMHO, and not intended as an excuse for the losses, but rather an honest assessment based on observation.

[Late nite]

Spoken by a man who spent 3 days rambling on about the treatment of NPU fans by Wheaton security and the correct coaching protocol (thanks for the lesson) for handling a player during a game---No need to change the game plan until the game itself changes---Let's see---27 FT's from a skinny PG vs 15 team FT's for a team with 2 legitimate inside scoring threats ---Seems fair to me

Didn't see the Carthage-North Central game---But with a Little Bosko shooting 27 FT's, it would appear that Flopfest was in high gear and Big Bosko was velcroed to any official who would pass by him on the sideline

Maybe leave the passing of judgment to those who actually attended the game?

That doesn't appear to be in Late Nite's gameplan, as every other post he's put on CCIW Chat over the past couple weeks has been a nagging complaint about how "Big Bosko" and "Little Bosko" (is the name "Steve" or "Steve D." really that much harder to spell than "Little Bosko", LN? or does the kid not deserve his own identity?) have every CCIW ref in their back pockets and are playing them all for chumps.

He certainly has the right to post about anything he wishes, but I'm a little wearied by the constant bashing of Djurickovics pere and fils. And I'm not even a Carthage fan. Yes, LN, we get it ... Steve Djurickovic is awarded an astonishing (and suspicious, if you don't like Carthage or the Djurickovics) number of trips to the free-throw line every game, and Bosko -- heaven forbid! -- is not afraid to get in the ear of the refs when he thinks that his team's been fouled. But at this point you're just saying the same thing over and over.

[mwunder]

Spoken by a man who spent 3 days rambling on about the treatment of NPU fans by Wheaton security and the correct coaching protocol (thanks for the lesson) for handling a player during a game---No need to change the game plan until the game itself changes---Let's see---27 FT's from a skinny PG vs 15 team FT's for a team with 2 legitimate inside scoring threats ---Seems fair to me

Life is not fair.  That's what makes it so fun.

[Late nite]

TQ---You were singing a different tune last year on the Feb 10th game when Raymond went to the line 20 times against your beloved Titans---Ouote, "Raymond got the benefit of a Michael Jordan whistle tonight at the Shirk"---Not much difference from the statements that Steve D got the benefit of some dubious officiating in relation to the NCC game--Your comment may not be as vocal, but certainly a veiled attempt to express that your Titans received the short end of the stick from the stripes---Must have been the anti-Titan sentiment of the  CCIW officials that night 

REDMENFAN,
                   Anytime you look at the stats of a team or player then you see a jump by 10 in any area in one game it sends a red flag out and NCC isn't a real physical team with 4 players fouling out, that sir is not the norm. Let Steve have his shots is not a bad plan but you better shut down the others.Add back in the 4 players who fouled out a different outcome would have happened, shame on the hissy officals the game could have been called differently. I heard all summer how physical the CCIW was and then you get a player who goes to the line 27 times in a game, if it was as physical as led to believe Steve would have been in a wheelchair or had a walker at the line.Not once did he get hammered in the lane just little love taps to let him know he was being watched. ::

I guess if not for the anti-NCC sentiment from the CCIW officials, the Cards would be undefeated in the league. 

TQ---

As a matter of fact:
1. During the Benjy Taylor years, I believe there was an anti-NCC sentiment among the refs. Quite possibly, deservedly so.
2. Upon several occasions this season, the NCC Cardinals have thoroughly demonstrated that they have firmly grasped the principles of the Tomahawk Chop. Many of their fouls have been both unintelligent and obvious. Many are also the result of their physical style of play.
3. I don't know if an anti-Ncc sentiment exists today or not. If so, it couldn't be proven anyway. However, if you would have seen each of the NCC CCIW games as I have, I firmly believe that your opinion would be that the Cards have had more questionable calls go against them than have been called in their favor. Sure, NC has gotten away with its share of both calls and non calls, but overall, they've been the victim of more poor calls, on both ends of the floor, than have their opponents. Thats JMHO, and not intended as an excuse for the losses, but rather an honest assessment based on observation.

[tjcummingsfan]

REDMENFAN,
                   Anytime you look at the stats of a team or player then you see a jump by 10 in any area in one game it sends a red flag out and NCC isn't a real physical team with 4 players fouling out, that sir is not the norm. Let Steve have his shots is not a bad plan but you better shut down the others.Add back in the 4 players who fouled out a different outcome would have happened, shame on the hissy officals the game could have been called differently. I heard all summer how physical the CCIW was and then you get a player who goes to the line 27 times in a game, if it was as physical as led to believe Steve would have been in a wheelchair or had a walker at the line.Not once did he get hammered in the lane just little love taps to let him know he was being watched. ::

I guess if not for the anti-NCC sentiment from the CCIW officials, the Cards would be undefeated in the league. 

TQ---

As a matter of fact:
1. During the Benjy Taylor years, I believe there was an anti-NCC sentiment among the refs. Quite possibly, deservedly so.
2. Upon several occasions this season, the NCC Cardinals have thoroughly demonstrated that they have firmly grasped the principles of the Tomahawk Chop. Many of their fouls have been both unintelligent and obvious. Many are also the result of their physical style of play.
3. I don't know if an anti-Ncc sentiment exists today or not. If so, it couldn't be proven anyway. However, if you would have seen each of the NCC CCIW games as I have, I firmly believe that your opinion would be that the Cards have had more questionable calls go against them than have been called in their favor. Sure, NC has gotten away with its share of both calls and non calls, but overall, they've been the victim of more poor calls, on both ends of the floor, than have their opponents. Thats JMHO, and not intended as an excuse for the losses, but rather an honest assessment based on observation.

I know this wasn't directed towards me, but, that is always going to be a matter of opinion, just as we agreed was the case a week and a half ago during the NP vs NCC game.  I'd bet most fans would make that kind of statement, and firmly believe it, its the nature of watching a game as a fan.

[AndOne]

TJ------

You are positively 100% correct in your stating that my comments weren't directed at you personally. Or, at anyone else specifically for that matter. Additionally, I'd be remiss not to think that any fan would naturally have some built in bias in favor of his team. And, no, my opinion in this case can't be proven, especially on a game by game basis. All I was trying to say, hopefully without sounding like a sore loser, is that I'd bet if you know basketball, and had seen every NCC game so far, that if you totaled up all the bad calls both for and against, that you would say NCC has had more bad calls go against them on the whole than their opponents have. And, I feel this would be your opinion even if you weren't a NCC fan, but just an honest, knowledgeable, basketball fan.

[Titan Q]

TQ---You were singing a different tune last year on the Feb 10th game when Raymond went to the line 20 times against your beloved Titans---Ouote, "Raymond got the benefit of a Michael Jordan whistle tonight at the Shirk"---Not much difference from the statements that Steve D got the benefit of some dubious officiating in relation to the NCC game--Your comment may not be as vocal, but certainly a veiled attempt to express that your Titans received the short end of the stick from the stripes---Must have been the anti-Titan sentiment of the  CCIW officials that night 

I notice you didn't use that entire quote from 2/9/07, which was:

"You could tell Raymond was feeling it in the opening minutes of the game.  He clearly had his good jumpshot going, but what led to his domination of the game was his aggressiveness in going to the basket.  Raymond got a Michael Jordan whistle at the Shirk Center last night, but the bottom line is he forced the issue and got himself to the line 20 times......and made all 20.  Amazing.  Our big news during the broadcast was when he hit the rim with one of the free throws...I remember feeling like that was a moral victory of some sort for the Titans. 

I've compared Raymond a lot of times here to Korey Coon (I guess it's fitting he broke Korey's Shirk Center scoring record of 42), but last night he played like Drew Carstens.  He was just the toughest player on the floor and wouldn't be denied.  IWU does not have anyone capable of containing Raymond, but I get the feeling he would have dominated just about anyone in Division III last night."

Isn't that a little different than:

This is the first CCIW game I have seen that officals were replaced by either professional movers or the CIA bodyguard service. Little Bosko (as referred to in a prior post) was so protected you could have put him in bubble wrap and not one player guarding him would have would have been able to pop a single bubble, he is a talented young man with a good shooting touch, but let him play. The calls for him would have made Ripley's believe it or not. For one player to get 27 shots is hard to swallow, any drive that #21 white jersey had you almost had to hold your breath in anticipation of a call and it usually happened. I understand you take all that is given you, but come on. The foul difference is unreal NCC 10-15 ft & fta Catrhage 33 - 41 ft & fta. NCC had to change game plan with 4 players fouling out, next time you see Carthage play check out the grab and shake that Little Bosko ( as referred to in a prior post) to get free no foul there Come on refs share the wealth

REDMENFAN,
                   Anytime you look at the stats of a team or player then you see a jump by 10 in any area in one game it sends a red flag out and NCC isn't a real physical team with 4 players fouling out, that sir is not the norm. Let Steve have his shots is not a bad plan but you better shut down the others.Add back in the 4 players who fouled out a different outcome would have happened, shame on the hissy officals the game could have been called differently. I heard all summer how physical the CCIW was and then you get a player who goes to the line 27 times in a game, if it was as physical as led to believe Steve would have been in a wheelchair or had a walker at the line.Not once did he get hammered in the lane just little love taps to let him know he was being watched. ::

[mwunder]

TQ---You were singing a different tune last year on the Feb 10th game when Raymond went to the line 20 times against your beloved Titans---Ouote, "Raymond got the benefit of a Michael Jordan whistle tonight at the Shirk"---Not much difference from the statements that Steve D got the benefit of some dubious officiating in relation to the NCC game--Your comment may not be as vocal, but certainly a veiled attempt to express that your Titans received the short end of the stick from the stripes---Must have been the anti-Titan sentiment of the  CCIW officials that night 

I notice you didn't use that entire quote from 2/9/07, which was:

"You could tell Raymond was feeling it in the opening minutes of the game.  He clearly had his good jumpshot going, but what led to his domination of the game was his aggressiveness in going to the basket.  Raymond got a Michael Jordan whistle at the Shirk Center last night, but the bottom line is he forced the issue and got himself to the line 20 times......and made all 20.  Amazing.  Our big news during the broadcast was when he hit the rim with one of the free throws...I remember feeling like that was a moral victory of some sort for the Titans. 

I've compared Raymond a lot of times here to Korey Coon (I guess it's fitting he broke Korey's Shirk Center scoring record of 42), but last night he played like Drew Carstens.  He was just the toughest player on the floor and wouldn't be denied.  IWU does not have anyone capable of containing Raymond, but I get the feeling he would have dominated just about anyone in Division III last night."

Isn't that a little different than:

This is the first CCIW game I have seen that officals were replaced by either professional movers or the CIA bodyguard service. Little Bosko (as referred to in a prior post) was so protected you could have put him in bubble wrap and not one player guarding him would have would have been able to pop a single bubble, he is a talented young man with a good shooting touch, but let him play. The calls for him would have made Ripley's believe it or not. For one player to get 27 shots is hard to swallow, any drive that #21 white jersey had you almost had to hold your breath in anticipation of a call and it usually happened. I understand you take all that is given you, but come on. The foul difference is unreal NCC 10-15 ft & fta Catrhage 33 - 41 ft & fta. NCC had to change game plan with 4 players fouling out, next time you see Carthage play check out the grab and shake that Little Bosko ( as referred to in a prior post) to get free no foul there Come on refs share the wealth

REDMENFAN,
                   Anytime you look at the stats of a team or player then you see a jump by 10 in any area in one game it sends a red flag out and NCC isn't a real physical team with 4 players fouling out, that sir is not the norm. Let Steve have his shots is not a bad plan but you better shut down the others.Add back in the 4 players who fouled out a different outcome would have happened, shame on the hissy officals the game could have been called differently. I heard all summer how physical the CCIW was and then you get a player who goes to the line 27 times in a game, if it was as physical as led to believe Steve would have been in a wheelchair or had a walker at the line.Not once did he get hammered in the lane just little love taps to let him know he was being watched. ::

Amen.

[aceon2]

TQ, great response...

The facts in the game were that North Central decided to take away everyone else, as in chest them up take them out of the game.  In essence Steve was playing 1-on-1 from the top of the key.  Now the calls that were made are things you play through in 1-on-1 but are consistently called handchecks and bumps therefore fouls in real 5-on-5 basketball.  You can complain all you want about the officials but the officials did not decide the game.  Steve is a great player, a smart player, that knows how to get officials to blow their whistles.  That is a fact not an opinion, as evidence by how many attempts he has thus far. 

As for this weekend, I am a little nervous about that trip to Decatur for the Redmen.  Doesnt matter how either team is playing, that trip always seems to come down to the last 5 minutes of a close game.  I got a feeling that the Redmen wont be overlooking anyone in the conference and pull out a tight win 67-60 or so... 

As for the Redmen winning 10 games, I am one to say that they definitely can win 10 games.  I think having alread won at Elmhurst is a big plus, and picking up another road win at Millikin tomorrow would put them in a great position.  They have already defeated IWU and Augie at home, so I see Wheaton and Elmhurst as their two toughest tests at home.  If they are able to go 7-0 at home(which is still a long way off, but definitely possible) and win tomorrow.  They would only have to win 2 of at NCC; at NPU; at Augie; and at IWU.

Should be another fun weekend... Good luck to all the teams

[knarocky22]

Why does it seem that some NCC fans always contend that the Cardinals are getting the short end of the stick with the officials.  What about the foul against Simmons with no time left last year?  I don't know if I've ever seen a more questionable call than that.  And that game was AT Augie.  It's fine if you think NCC is constantly getting hosed by the officials, but just keep it to yourself.  It gets old reading about it.

[cardinalfanrochelle]

Latenite,
              In your post 13270, you call Steve a skinny PG. Funny I didn't see one on the court that night. You think with both parents having college coaching backrounds that he isn't in shape for college ball? He may not have defined biceps or buldging calfs from the weightroom but he is solid. Muscle is good to a point but you loose flexibility by having too much, the big boys are slowed by that. I hear that he should have gone D-1 but you go where you fit in, feel comfortable, and enjoy where you are. Carthage is a good solid school and the support is very good for the programs and on top of that get to play for your Dad , not a bad deal at all I guess the only thing that would top it off if he were Lutheran an ELCA Lutheran at that.....

[Late nite]

TQ---Whether taking the quote out of the context or using all of it, when throwing compliments at Raymond and praising him for being such a great player, why the zinger about the officiating?---If he is the great player that you reported, how would the officiating have made a difference?---Or did it?---Which way was it?---Was he a great player or did he receive the benefit of a Michael Jordan whistle to contribute to that success?---Why mention it?---That part of your quote was not a journalistic statement, but a personal opinion---We all have opinions---Some more valid than others---It doesn't mean we should be accused as conspiracy theorists

TQ---You were singing a different tune last year on the Feb 10th game when Raymond went to the line 20 times against your beloved Titans---Ouote, "Raymond got the benefit of a Michael Jordan whistle tonight at the Shirk"---Not much difference from the statements that Steve D got the benefit of some dubious officiating in relation to the NCC game--Your comment may not be as vocal, but certainly a veiled attempt to express that your Titans received the short end of the stick from the stripes---Must have been the anti-Titan sentiment of the  CCIW officials that night 

I notice you didn't use that entire quote from 2/9/07, which was:

"You could tell Raymond was feeling it in the opening minutes of the game.  He clearly had his good jumpshot going, but what led to his domination of the game was his aggressiveness in going to the basket.  Raymond got a Michael Jordan whistle at the Shirk Center last night, but the bottom line is he forced the issue and got himself to the line 20 times......and made all 20.  Amazing.  Our big news during the broadcast was when he hit the rim with one of the free throws...I remember feeling like that was a moral victory of some sort for the Titans. 

I've compared Raymond a lot of times here to Korey Coon (I guess it's fitting he broke Korey's Shirk Center scoring record of 42), but last night he played like Drew Carstens.  He was just the toughest player on the floor and wouldn't be denied.  IWU does not have anyone capable of containing Raymond, but I get the feeling he would have dominated just about anyone in Division III last night."

Isn't that a little different than:

This is the first CCIW game I have seen that officals were replaced by either professional movers or the CIA bodyguard service. Little Bosko (as referred to in a prior post) was so protected you could have put him in bubble wrap and not one player guarding him would have would have been able to pop a single bubble, he is a talented young man with a good shooting touch, but let him play. The calls for him would have made Ripley's believe it or not. For one player to get 27 shots is hard to swallow, any drive that #21 white jersey had you almost had to hold your breath in anticipation of a call and it usually happened. I understand you take all that is given you, but come on. The foul difference is unreal NCC 10-15 ft & fta Catrhage 33 - 41 ft & fta. NCC had to change game plan with 4 players fouling out, next time you see Carthage play check out the grab and shake that Little Bosko ( as referred to in a prior post) to get free no foul there Come on refs share the wealth

REDMENFAN,
                   Anytime you look at the stats of a team or player then you see a jump by 10 in any area in one game it sends a red flag out and NCC isn't a real physical team with 4 players fouling out, that sir is not the norm. Let Steve have his shots is not a bad plan but you better shut down the others.Add back in the 4 players who fouled out a different outcome would have happened, shame on the hissy officals the game could have been called differently. I heard all summer how physical the CCIW was and then you get a player who goes to the line 27 times in a game, if it was as physical as led to believe Steve would have been in a wheelchair or had a walker at the line.Not once did he get hammered in the lane just little love taps to let him know he was being watched. ::

Amen.

[cardinalpride]

Why does it seem that some NCC fans always contend that the Cardinals are getting the short end of the stick with the officials.  What about the foul against Simmons with no time left last year?  I don't know if I've ever seen a more questionable call than that.  And that game was AT Augie.  It's fine if you think NCC is constantly getting hosed by the officials, but just keep it to yourself.  It gets old reading about it.

What gets old Knarocky is posters like you complaining about what another poster writes!  If you don't want to read it, skip it!