MBB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

[veterancciwfan]

Just a note on a H.S. senior who every team in the league is interested in, Jeremy Pflederer of Tremont. Went to see Tremont play in the the 1A Sectional tonight. They lost so no more scouting of Pflederer. He's a 6 foot shooting guard and a temendous athlete. Totally unselfish, a great passer,  a strong and accurate jump shooter and leaper. He averaged 25.7 pts a game and 8.8 rebounds a game. Scored 33 on ACT according to program write-up by a Peoria Journal Star reporter. It will be interesting to see where he lands in August.

[cardinalpride]

Yesterday during the annual post-season coaches conference call, the topic of the CCIW conference tournament came up and a vote was actually taken on continuing with it or not.  The vote was 4-4...would have taken 5-3 to get rid of the tournament.

The tournament was billed by a couple key proponents as a way to get more teams in the tournament.  As I have posted here numerous times, that logic is flawed.  Some years the tournament may help get more CCIW teams in, but I suspect more years than not it will actually hurt (assuming the host wins the tournament most years).  Look at the current situation heading into the 2008 CCIW tournament -- Augustana would be in as the Pool A team and I believe Wheaton has moved into position to have a solid chance at a Pool C.  This weekend, Wheaton will have to beat a team that has swept them and then beat Augustana on their floor to win the AQ.  If they lose either game, they've hurt their Pool C chances relative to their pre-tournament position.  (Wheaton's in-region winning% would drop with a 0-1 or 1-1 in Rock Island.)

Look at what happend in the WIAC.  I think most would agree that UW-Platteville and UW-Oshkosh had a Pool C chance before the conference tournament.  Both lost in Round 1 and now have no chance.

Why strong conferences, with multiple teams who have solid resumes after 25 games, want to have a conference tournament - where you are guaranteeing to add regional losses to some of your best teams - is still puzzling to me.

TQ,
I must disagree with you on this topic.  Having a conf. tournament does not hurt a teams chances of getting into the NCAA tournament.  However, non-conference scheduling & results plus bad conference losses does.  For instance, Augustana over the past three seasons have made the conf. tournament a non-factor in regards to getting into the NCAA's because they have taken care of business in the non conference, and they haven't had a bad conference loss either.  

In 2006, NCC took care of business in the non conference, had on bad loss in conference (Millikin-away), but won the conference tournament so their in.  IWU, took care of business in the non conference, didn't really have a bad conference loss, and went 1-1 in conf. tourny and their in.  Augi, took care of business in the non conference, took care of business in conference, and was 0-1 in the conf. tourny and their in.  

In 2007, Augustana took care of business in the non conference, took care of business in the conference, and won conference tourny and their in.  Elmhurst, loss to Simpson( I believe was in-region) in the non conf., had a bad loss at home to Millikin in conf., and went 1-1 in conf tourny and their not in.  The losses to Simpson and Millikin kept Elmhurst out of the NCAA's.  

In 2008, Augustana took care of business in the non conference, took care of business in the conference, and therefore the conf tourny doesn't matter and their in.   Wheaton, took care of business in the non conf. (30 pt loss to Hope doesn't look good), had 2 bad losses to NCC that may come back to haunt them, and must go at least 1-1 in conf tourny to have a chance.  If they don't make it, they have only themselves to blame.  Win at home against NCC and this may be a non issue.  Elmhurst, took care of business in the non conference for the most part (although close loss to Oshkosh doesn't help them), had a bumpy conference season (0-4 vs augi/wheaton two tourny worthy teams), needs to win conf tourny to get in NCAA's.  

Bottomline, tournament worthy teams should win games that they're suppose to win throughout the course of the non conf. and conf. seasons.  To me those games are: home games vs bad teams, road games vs bad teams, home games vs tournament worthy teams (and if a team loses a home game to a tourny worthy team then they must make up for it by winning one on the road).  Just one man's long and wordy opinion.

**What I mean by taking care of business is winning all games vesus non-tournament worthy and/or qualifying teams in the non conf. and conf portions of the season.

[Mr. Ypsi]

cp, good post - I mostly agree.  But your second sentence is clearly not necessarily true.

While other losses may be blamed (rightly) for why they didn't make it, it is none-the-less true that a team who otherwise might have been (say) the 15th pool C will miss the tourney because of the additional loss.  This year's example would be Wheaton - right now, I think they would (barely) squeeze in; if they lose again, I doubt it.

Never-the-less, I like the tourney (as long as it stays at 4, not 8, teams.  I think IWU, Wheaton, and Elmhurst are all capable of representing the conference well if they get hot (and Augie is a lock for a C if they lose) - give a chance to worthy teams who fell slightly short.  But if Augie wins the tourney, we may well have gone from two teams to one.

[AndOne]

I think most conferences consider a conference tournament as promoting access to the NCAA tournament.

And does the CCIW have to think the same way as "most" others.

I think most years the CCIW would have at least 2 teams worthy of being included in the national DIII tourney (3 teams currently ranked in the top 38 in the D3Hoops poll). However, in years that the same team wins both the regular conference title and the conference tourney, which I believe will happen more often than not in the long run, it just makes it more unlikely that additional CCIW member teams will be chosen. Therefore, such a scenario would actually limit access rather than promoting it.   

[AndOne]

I think its usually going to be a safe bet that the regular season CCIW champ makes the national tourney. Example--2 years ago Augie wins the conference title, hosts the conference tourney in which they don't win a game on their home floor, and still, DESERVEDLY, gets in the national tourney.

Given the above---Here is a radical idea which just may actually promote additional CCIW inclusion in the national tournament. Rather than having the regular season champ host the conference tourney, have one of the four teams (I'm against having more than a 4 team conf. tourney) that doesn't make the conf tourney host it!!! In that way, the built in advantage that the conference winning team has by getting to play the conf tourney games on their home floor is eliminated, thus making it more likely that one of the other 3 top regular season teams wins and the conference then has a better chance of having at least 2 teams invited to the Big Dance.

I've read that the idea of this room, and in fact of D3Hoops is to promote an open discussion of basketball related ideas. Thats all this is---an idea. So, before you all get your scalpels out and  cut me up, why don't you just give your opinion on the idea. Fair enough?   

[Titan Q]

Just a note on a H.S. senior who every team in the league is interested in, Jeremy Pflederer of Tremont. Went to see Tremont play in the the 1A Sectional tonight. They lost so no more scouting of Pflederer. He's a 6 foot shooting guard and a temendous athlete. Totally unselfish, a great passer,  a strong and accurate jump shooter and leaper. He averaged 25.7 pts a game and 8.8 rebounds a game. Scored 33 on ACT according to program write-up by a Peoria Journal Star reporter. It will be interesting to see where he lands in August.

Note, Jeremy Pflederer's sister attends Wheaton College.

[Titan Q]

Given the above---Here is a radical idea which just may actually promote additional CCIW inclusion in the national tournament. Rather than having the regular season champ host the conference tourney, have one of the four teams (I'm against having more than a 4 team conf. tourney) that doesn't make the conf tourney host it!!! In that way, the built in advantage that the conference winning team has by getting to play the conf tourney games on their home floor is eliminated, thus making it more likely that one of the other 3 top regular season teams wins and the conference then has a better chance of having at least 2 teams invited to the Big Dance.

I don't like it.

[sac]

I think if your going to put your conference Champions possible NCAA bid on the line by having a tournament, the least you could do is let them host the thing.

I think most conferences consider a conference tournament as promoting access to the NCAA tournament.

And does the CCIW have to think the same way as "most" others.

I think most years the CCIW would have at least 2 teams worthy of being included in the national DIII tourney (3 teams currently ranked in the top 38 in the D3Hoops poll). However, in years that the same team wins both the regular conference title and the conference tourney, which I believe will happen more often than not in the long run, it just makes it more unlikely that additional CCIW member teams will be chosen. Therefore, such a scenario would actually limit access rather than promoting it.  

By promoting it, I was referring to giving schools who would typically have no shot at ever going to the tournament at least a chance.  Keeping in mind this is coming from someone who's conference championship has been at least shared 53 of the last 57 times by 2 schools.

Not everyone enjoys the parity of the CCIW and WIAC.

[usee]

I think its usually going to be a safe bet that the regular season CCIW champ makes the national tourney. Example--2 years ago Augie wins the conference title, hosts the conference tourney in which they don't win a game on their home floor, and still, DESERVEDLY, gets in the national tourney.

Given the above---Here is a radical idea which just may actually promote additional CCIW inclusion in the national tournament. Rather than having the regular season champ host the conference tourney, have one of the four teams (I'm against having more than a 4 team conf. tourney) that doesn't make the conf tourney host it!!! In that way, the built in advantage that the conference winning team has by getting to play the conf tourney games on their home floor is eliminated, thus making it more likely that one of the other 3 top regular season teams wins and the conference then has a better chance of having at least 2 teams invited to the Big Dance.

I've read that the idea of this room, and in fact of D3Hoops is to promote an open discussion of basketball related ideas. Thats all this is---an idea. So, before you all get your scalpels out and  cut me up, why don't you just give your opinion on the idea. Fair enough?   

first of all , +k for promoting a new idea. I think new ideas and thoughts should be encouraged and thoughtfully debated so I applaud you.

I personally wouldn't be in favor of this after thinking it through. I just don't like taking the focus away from winning the conference title in any way. We had this debate on the football board last fall and Q argued what I am arguing here (I was actually on the other side in that debate). I think the #1 focus of any CCIW team should be to win the conference. I do think in doing so a team prepares itself for the postseason in the best possible manner. I also think think this would be very hard to change because you are essentially proposing the focus of the conference changes to become a conference goal of competing nationally rather than a race for the CCIW title. Getting all the constituents to conclude that is a good things seems improbable.

I guess one possible comparison is the NCAA div I tournament. It has a good blend of what you are proposing in putting it's #1's on a neutral site which allows greater flexibility to pick the best 64 teams.

[aceon2]

I personally think that the CCIW tourney is a good thing for a number of reasons.  In fact, I would like to see all 8 CCIW teams in the tourney.  Here is the reasoning:

1) The winner of the CCIW regular season is more than likely going to be in the tourney already.
2) The opportunity the CCIW tournament presents is something I think is being overlooked by many.  Q and others have said that Wheaton would be right on the line but would probably make it in without having another loss on their record.  We thought that Elmhurst should be in last year and we all know what happened there.  Im not saying by any means that Wheaton would be out, but I think if you asked the likes of Bill Harris, Andy Weile, Kent Raymond, etc.  they would tell you they would much rather hold their own fate in their hands, rather than leave it up to the committee!  The same goes for Elmhurst and their players and IWU and their players. 
3) In essence, the team that wins the CCIW regular season knows that their name will be called come tournament time.  On the other hand, I think it is the start of the big tournament for the rest of the teams.  They know that if they win two games in Rock Island this weekend they will be playing in the tourney next week.  They know that if they lose they are basically done for the season. 

I think its a great thing, but I never understood why they went to the top 4 rather than all 8 teams.  Granted division 1 is much different, but you never see the Big Ten or ACC cut their conferences in half in the conference tournament.  Everyone has a chance, because we already are to the postseason...

[Titan Q]

Kent Raymond career free throws vs IWU...

2/16/08 (at WC): 2-2
1/23/08 (at IWU): 4-4
2/9/07 (at IWU): 20-20
1/17/07 (at WC): 8-8
2/9/05 (at WC): 11-11
1/15/05 (at IWU): 3-4

That's 45 in a row, and 48-49 total.

[Titan Q]

2) The opportunity the CCIW tournament presents is something I think is being overlooked by many.  Q and others have said that Wheaton would be right on the line but would probably make it in without having another loss on their record.  We thought that Elmhurst should be in last year and we all know what happened there.

Remember though, Elmhurst lost a game in the conference tournament last year, which means that their Pool C chances were worse after the tournament than they were before it.  Most would agree the Bluejays just missed the Pool C cut in 2007, so it is very possible the CCIW conference tournament loss kept them out.

Wheaton is in almost the indentical position this year.  In looking at the new regional rankings (link below) with Wheaton now ahead of Chicago and currently the highest ranked Pool C candidate in the Midwest, I think it is fair to say they'd have a great chance to get in without another loss.  If Wheaton loses to IWU or Augie/Elmhurst, their position is hurt - I don't think that can be disputed.  So again, Wheaton has to beat IWU and then most likely win an upset game (vs Augie on their floor) to get the Pool A bid...otherwise, they are in worse position as they are today.

Also consider the 2008 UAA situtation (the only conference left without a tournament I believe).  Let's say Chicago (9-3) beats Wash U (9-3) at Chicago this weekend.  And Brandeis (9-4) takes care of NYU (6-7) at home, and Rochester (8-5) wins at Carnegie Mellon (6-7).  Most agree the UAA will get four teams in - Chicago as the Pool A and Wash U, Brandeis, and Rochester as Pool C's.   Now, let's say the UAA has a 4-team conference tournament (like the CCIW) in which #4 seed Rochester has to play #1 seed Chicago in round 1.  If Rochester loses that game, their Pool C position is hurt.    As it is, without the tournament, they're in easily.  If Chicago loses the game, they'd be hurt bigtime...on the Pool C bubble at best.  Same with Brandies, which would have to face Wash U in the other UAA semifinal game - they'd be hurt by a loss.

You're guaranteed to have 3 of the 4 teams in a 4-team tournament - presumably, the teams that end up being the league's top 3 Pool C candidates - lose a game.  You know two are going to go 0-1 and one will go 1-1.  Those 0-1's and 1-1's hurt.

http://www.d3hoops.com/dailydose/2008/02/27/ncaas-third-regional-rankings

Let me be clear - there are a lot of things about the tournament I like from a fan's perspective (many of the things posted here).  And sure, I love the thought of teams controlling their own destiny.  But this thing was billed as a way to get more teams in the NCAA tournament and that is just simply "false advertising."  Some years it might help accomplish that, but some years it will hurt.  Looking at this from a CCIW big picture perspective, I do not think the conference tournament makes sense in a league as good as the CCIW, where every year multiple teams will have a solid resume after the final regular season game.  Play 25 games and let the resumes speak for themselves - in the longrun, that is the best way for the CCIW to get the most teams in. 

[Titan Q]

Im not saying by any means that Wheaton would be out, but I think if you asked the likes of Bill Harris, Andy Weile, Kent Raymond, etc.  they would tell you they would much rather hold their own fate in their hands, rather than leave it up to the committee! 

Bill Harris opposed the CCIW tournament concept when it was first voted on, and he was one of the 4 who voted to get rid of it a few days ago - and one of the most vocal in opposition to the tournament concept as I understand it.

[usee]

Im not saying by any means that Wheaton would be out, but I think if you asked the likes of Bill Harris, Andy Weile, Kent Raymond, etc.  they would tell you they would much rather hold their own fate in their hands, rather than leave it up to the committee! 

Bill Harris opposed the CCIW tournament concept when it was first voted on, and he was one of the 4 who voted to get rid of it a few days ago - and one of the most vocal in opposition to the tournament concept as I understand it.

I was typing this very reply as you posted Q. Bill Harris is on record as opposing the conference tourney and has never wavered from that from what I understand. If you asked him directly I am pretty sure he would say he is against it today.

[aceon2]

Thanks Q for the info on Bill Harris.  I did not know he was opposed to it.  And, I also agree that it may be in the best interest of the conference to get more teams in without the tourney.  That being said, my point was only that in essence all four of these teams are already in the post-season. I think that for how tough the conference season is, teams like Elmhurst and IWU should at least have that opportunity to play themselves into the big tournament by winning the CCIW tournament.