MBB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

[cardinalpride]

cardinalpride, I think you should read my whole post and not take one selective line out of what I said.  I said it is highly unlikely that IWU would go through the CCIW season undefeated.  I said the league is too tough to make it through the whole season undefeated.  Granted, I did say the Titans have the talent to do it, and to beat them, you are going to have to catch all of their stars on an off night (most likely on the road where they don't get the Shirk bounces).  However, nowhere did I say it is impossible to outplay the Titans this year.  Yes, I watched the '96 Bulls play and yes I know they lost some games, even at home.  Which is why I pointed out last years U of I team that they did not make it through the entire year undefeated.  Cardinal, I'm happy your team went undefeated in the non-conf. season.  It says a lot about our conference and I know Coach Raridon is as good as any out their.  However, before you go making these wild accusations, I suggest you actually read all of what people post, not just selective lines.  You claim that you 'speak your opinion and the truth.'  Hate to break it to you, but your opinion, my opinion, Q's opinion, Dennis's opinion, anyone's opinion on here does not qualify as the truth, that's why it's called an opinion.  If your opinion is indeed the correct one, we will all find out on Wednesday when the Cards visit the Shirk.  Good luck, you guys will need it.

First of all Devil dog, I did read your entire post.  When I said "So it's impossible to outplay IWU".  I directly aimed that statement at your statement "you are going to have to catch all of their stars on an off night to beat them".  Their stars having an off night can directly be the result of good defense by the opposing team.  Therefore, a team would not be CATCHING them on an off night.  They would indeed be forcing IWU into an off night.

Secondly, I never said my opinion IS the truth.  I specificly said, I speak my opinion AND the truth.  See the difference? 

Lastly, I know I'm going out on a limb with my pick of NCC over IWU on 1/4/06.  Well, that's just my opinion.  99% of the posters believe otherwise.  Hell, I also believe Texas will beat USC on the same night.  Bottomline, it doesn't matter what I or any of the posters on D3 believe.  It all boils down to whether or not the NCC players believe they can beat IWU.  I say they do believe.  That's why I'm picking them.

[titanhammer]

Cardinal Pride said, "Their stars having an off night can directly be the result of good defense by the opposing team.  Therefore, a team would not be CATCHING them on an off night.  They would indeed be forcing IWU into an off night."

CP, that's just it:  in my opinion, I don't think anyone else in the league has the ability to "force" all of our "stars" into an off night.  By the way, who are our "stars".  You could list Keelan, Adam, and Zac.  That would be accurate, but I think the Titans are much more than that.  One night (or holiday trip) it could be Chris Jones (all tournament team).  Another night, it could be his brother, Matt Arnold, or any of the other rotation.  This years group of seniors just has that extra edge and will be tough to beat.  They have played a demanding schedule, gone undefeated, and I still don't think they have "clicked" (unless you count 30 minutes against Wash U).  To win the two games they did in California against good teams and a coast whistle is impressive (you know what I'm talking about if you've experienced or witnessed it).

Like dd said, this is just an opinion.  We'll see what happens on Wednesday night.  Will you be there?  What year was it that Carthage was upset in the first game or two of the year when they were the heavy favorites.  It can also go the other way:  I think in '91 the Titans started off 3 - 4, but still had a 15 - 1 CCIW record.  As many have said, that's why they play 'em.

[devildog29]

CP, I think hammer has already answered for me, but I'm sorry, comparing the lineups, person for person, North Central does not have the same amount of talent that IWU does.  Top to bottom, IWU has way too many players that can take over a game to lead the team when they need it.  As hammer and I said previously, you have to stop Dauksas, Amelianovich, Freeman and both Jones's all on the same night to beat the Titans.  I just don't see where North Central has the players to stop ALL of them.  Again I will say on any given night, any team can win, otherwise why play the game, but if both teams were to play to their own talent level, IWU would beat North Central 10 out of 10 times.  That is the key and that's why they play the games because a team doesn't always play to it's capability every night.  That's why Ohio State beat Illinois last year.  I don't think you can hardly say that Ohio State "focred" the Illini into that bad game though.  The Illini just had a bad game.  It happens sometimes.  It could happen for IWU on Wednesday night and North Central gets a second win at the Shirk.  I'm trying to be as objective as I can be about this, and I hope it doesn't sound like I'm being a greenie just spouting off about my own team.  I feel pretty confident though that most other CCIW chatsters from any of the other 6 CCIW institutions not involved in this debate would agree, North Central does not have the firepower to "force" all of the various Titans into a bad game on the same night.  If North Central were to beat IWU, it would be more the result of the Titans beating themselves instead of North Central beating them.

[dansand]

I would have to agree that anyone beating IWU this year would probably have to catch them on an off night. Not necessarily every player, of course, but as a team in general. They are unquestionably the most talented team in the league and probably the nation. But, that doesn't make them unbeatable. Last year when Augie beat them (the Titans' last CCIW loss) they were ranked #1 as well. In that game it was a combination of things, and not all of them had to do with Wesleyan playing poorly. They shot 58%, including 68% in the second half. In that respect Augie, obviously, didn't catch them on an off night. I think if I had to pick a couple of things that made the difference, one would be turnovers. The Titans had a lot of sloppy turnovers in that game, especially in the first half, which allowed Augie to stay in the game despite shooting 43%. The other thing that I think was a huge help to Augie was the passive zone that Wesleyan played for most of the game. It wasn't the aggressive half court trapping zone that Trost used the year before when they jumped all over Augie at Carver (28-3 to start the game--ugh). As a result, the Vikings had a lot of success by entering the ball to Travis Hoyt at the high post and having him kick it to the wing to Harrigan, Baumann, or Brusveen for three-pointers. Of course they still had to make the shots, which they did (10-25 3's for the game).
And, when they did miss, they grabbed 15 offensive rebounds, another huge key.

[Hoosier Titan]

Dansand,
From the Titan perspective--one of the most important factors in the loss at Augie last year:  it was the first game back after injury for both Cory Jones and Zach Freeman.  Given that, neither played badly, but they were definitely rusty after a long layoff.

Interesting discussion...hope we'll all be there to see "why they play the game."

[iwumichigander]

"Will North Central duplicate Hanover and become the second team with two wins in Shirk Center?" 


Augustana and Wheaton have two wins at the Shirk Center.

Thanks Q  - I knew more than Hanover had two wins. I just could not find the short list.

[Titan Q]

Currently stuck at LAX due to O'Hare being shutdown right now -- thunderstorms in Chicago in January??  There is a Division III hoops tie though -- the #8-ranked Lawrence Vikings are on my flight back to Chicago.  Anyone looking for All-American Chris Braier and his buddies may want to be patient...sounds like a long day of travel ahead.

[David Collinge]

Jeez...I wish I'd know Lawrence was out here.  And it looks like they had a good game too, beating Vanguard U. by 5 (after hammering Goucher.)  It's tough to keep track of local games when nobody in the local media cares about small college hoops (either D3 or NAIA). 

Good luck getting out, Q.  If you get delayed much longer, you'll have to take a float plane! 

[Titan Q]

The delay at LAX ended up being 5:15...nasty.

Lawrence beat Goucher 92-39 in a game where 19 Lawrence players scored (think about that for a second...19).  I know Lawrence is good, but how bad is Goucher??

http://www.lawrence.edu/athletics/mbasketball/stats0506/0506-7.htm

[Titan Q]

On the North Central/IWU topic, I think there are definitely reasons for IWU fans to take 9-0 NCC very seriously...

1) 6-6/225 Anthony Simmons (16.4 ppg, 6.1 rpg, .560 FG)  is one of the best big guys in the CCIW.  You can't guard him one on one.

2) 6-5/200 Daniel Walton has become a really good player - 20.1 ppg, 7.0 rpg, and a ridiculous FG% of .745 (70-94).  It looks to me like they have Walton playing kind of a 3/4 combo this year with Krumtinger and Simmons starting at the 4 and 5.  Walton is shooting, and making, 3's - 13-18 (.722).  Last year Walton was 6-16 for the entire season from beyond the arc.

3) The guard combo of Ray Vicario and Adam Teising, while not flashy, is extremely efficient - combined 21 pts per game, 25-51 from 3, and 67 assists to 17 T.O...a 3.94 to 1 assist to turnover ratio.

This is a very balanced team and NCC's season stats are scary:

- .545 FG%, .394 Opp. FG%
- 81.0 ppg, 62.8 Opp. ppg
- 143 assists/109 turnovers.....opponents 78/102

Now, I'm not real sure what to make of the Cardinals and their stats because they certainly haven't played many good teams...

vs Robert Morris-Springfield, 88-62
vs Loras, 70-57
vs Benedictine, 84-58
vs IIT, 87-59
@ Adrian, 86-63
vs Mount Marty (neutral), 80-69
vs Ripon (neutral), 80-64
@ Franklin, 73-61
vs Judson, 107-46

There are some teams in there that are usually good (like Benedictine and Ripon) that do not appear to be this year.  That are at least a couple that are terrible - IIT and Judson.  And there are some that are OK, but certainly not "top 25" candidates, like Franklin, Adrian, and Loras.  To North Central's credit, they've won convincingly in the games they should have...but have they been tested?

Illinois Wesleyan will be by far the best team NCC has faced this year.  Conversely, IWU has faced the likes of Wabash, Olivet Nazarene, St. Xavier, Chicago, Wash U, Hanover, Puget Sound, and Westmont.

Ultimately I think IWU has too much size, strength, and athleticism for North Central and too many weapons......but we will see Wednesday.

[Titan Q]

An article from the Santa Barbara News-Press that I read while I was there about the demise of the Big West conference...

http://www.newspress.com/Top/Article/article.jsp?Section=KZSB&ID=564585628096921625&Archive=true


Pacific is the only remaining school with any kind of fan base, averaging 4,289 for its home games. UC Irvine is next at 2,310. UCSB is fourth at 1,621.

Riverside brings up the rear at 539 per game. There are probably a few classes at that school getting better attendance.
-----
ESPN hasn't totally forgotten the Big West: It has Riverside at No. 2 in its ranking of Bottom 10 college basketball teams.

The 0-9 Highlanders got their attention by becoming this year's first Division 1 school to lose to a nonscholarship, Division 3 program. They got a Puget Sound beating in Riverside 10 days ago.

Riverside would probably be better off by offering their 12 basketball scholarships to those dozen players who are paying their own way at Puget Sound.
-----
The News-Press should have a field day with tonight's result:

UC-Riverside 81
UC-Santa Barbara 78

http://www.athletics.ucr.edu/cgi-bin/display.cgi?sportl=3

[Mr. Ypsi]

On the North Central/IWU topic, I think there are definitely reasons for IWU fans to take 9-0 NCC very seriously...

Ultimately I think IWU has too much size, strength, and athleticism for North Central and too many weapons......but we will see Wednesday.

Q,

I'm confident that Trost and the team will take NCC VERY seriously, but until I got to the last paragraph, I thought you were pulling a Lou Holtz on the rest of us!

[NCC DOES have the potential for an upset, but I'll call it IWU by 15+, and probably never SERIOUSLY challenged in the last 15 minutes.]

[Pat Coleman]

Lawrence beat Goucher 92-39 in a game where 19 Lawrence players scored (think about that for a second...19).   

My first thought was, "wow, they traveled 19 players?"

[Ralph Turner]

...  but how bad is Goucher?? ...

My first thought...

Great topic for Hoopsville!   

[John Gleich]

Lawrence beat Goucher 92-39 in a game where 19 Lawrence players scored (think about that for a second...19).   

My first thought was, "wow, they traveled 19 players?"

That was my first thought too.  Looking at the box score, they actually played 20 (one didn't score).