MBB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

[AndOne]

I don't think that comment's fair. While you can't really argue with "God told me to quit", losing Kent was really hard on team dynamics. Wheaton definitely spent some time recovering from it in may facets, and I think there were some legitimate tensions there. As one who had to watch Wheaton get brutalized by Wittier and Redlands, I saw how floundering they looked early on in that season first hand.

There were very real questions when he came back that needed to be asked, and Kent was told he could only come back if he committed to finish his career and not quit again. He said "allowed" because it felt like they "allowed" him to come back because that actually is how it was. Just because someone is a star player, doesn't mean they have the ability or right to hurt the team as a whole. This is especially true in DIII where corporations don't have control and big names don't make programs more money. Good coaches are able to make hard decisions like this all the time.

Come on, April. "Hard decision"? Really? Restoring the best basketball player that Wheaton has had in half a century -- perhaps ever -- to the roster was a "hard decision"? Sorry, no sale.

I don't doubt for a moment that it was difficult for the Wheaton players and coaching staff to accept Raymond's decision to forego basketball his sophomore year. And it's only human nature to resent a decision like that which thwarts collective aspirations and team unity, and to question his motives and dedication when he announced that he wanted to return, even though the rest of the team was 100% in tune with his value system. And asking Raymond for a guarantee that he wouldn't leave the team again was perfectly reasonable, since any coach worth his salt wants to know whom he can count upon and whom he can't when he plans for the future. But I don't buy for a minute the idea that putting Raymond back on the roster was some sort of an agonizing process for Bill Harris or anyone else associated with Wheaton basketball.

I may be missing something here, but from the "Christian perspective," if God told Raymond to quit, wouldn't it have been God who allowed him to return to the team, and coach Harris who affirmed God's decision by granting Raymond's request?

AO,

I believe you are definitely missing something. In fact, you are probably missing several things.    8)

Thanks Usee. I guess that makes us about dead even at this point!   8)  

[usee]

no, you are still ahead of me by alot. 

[petemcb]

Public service announcement for anyone who was at the Crackerbox for last night's CC-NP game:

It has become fairly common knowledge that I do the PA at North Park's games.

I was informed that there were a couple of royal screw-ups behind the mike last night, most glaringly when the announcer read North Park's starting line-up from LAST Saturday.

Let it be known (as I attempt to shield my reputation, for what it's worth), that wasn't me.  My time behind the mike has been cut in half by the powers that be (whoever those are).

Here's hoping you are back behind the microphone very soon!

That was the consensus of several of us there last night!  Get back soon!

[sac]

I know its WAY early for  this stuff but pabegg has compliled his list of regional rankings using OWP and OOWP

So far he has the CCIW in line for 1 C bid, to North Central.
http://www.d3boards.com/index.php?topic=4232.1890#msg1018599

At any rate you can start to see how the OWP and OOWP numbers stack up in the regions.

[paularmerding]

Interesting to read the B-ball mad midwest (especially the CCIW) perspective on your game facilities.  Oregon's largest university, and probably their top D1 program this year (coached by Ken Bone, formerly of Seattle Pacific) is Portland State University. Their "arena" for home games seats 1500. Before Wheaton's Centennial Gym was built, they could seat around 1400 at Alumni Gym, and in the late '50's (according to Lee Pfund, who lives down the hall from my dad) they sold tickets for each half of the game. They cleared the gym of fans at half time. When we moved to Wheaton in 1961, I often had a hard time finding a seat in the top row of the bleachers, which held 3400.  I guess with local TV from WETN, they virtually never fill up King Arena with its 2700-2800 seats.  Maybe if they get a playoff game there this year...

[Mr. Ypsi]

Interesting to read the B-ball mad midwest (especially the CCIW) perspective on your game facilities.  Oregon's largest university, and probably their top D1 program this year (coached by Ken Bone, formerly of Seattle Pacific) is Portland State University. Their "arena" for home games seats 1500. Before Wheaton's Centennial Gym was built, they could seat around 1400 at Alumni Gym, and in the late '50's (according to Lee Pfund, who lives down the hall from my dad) they sold tickets for each half of the game. They cleared the gym of fans at half time. When we moved to Wheaton in 1961, I often had a hard time finding a seat in the top row of the bleachers, which held 3400.  I guess with local TV from WETN, they virtually never fill up King Arena with its 2700-2800 seats.  Maybe if they get a playoff game there this year...

Amen.  Graduating from IWU, then living in Michigan (with Hope and Calvin), it took me years on d3hoops.com before I really grasped how spoiled I'd been.  In d3 'crowds' of 2-300 (or less!) are far more typical than crowds of 2-3000!

[OurHouse]

Last February I posted the following:

Agreed.  IWU is in year #1 of what is basically a complete rebuilding process.  (I don't really consider last year the first year of the process since Ron Rose was hired in May 2006 and had absolutely no chance to recruit anybody for his first season.) 

The Titans have a great freshman class, led by point-guard Travis Rosenkranz, shooting-guard Sean Johnson, and power forward Doug Sexauer.  Matt Schick has played well in his varsity minutes all season long, as has Duncan Lawson the last two games when thrown in there.  There are also several other freshmen who have a chance to be good, and Sean Dwyer is just a sophomore.

That said, they will miss Darius Gant very much next year -- he has been great in the league.  And when you look at who everyone returns in the CCIW, I don't see IWU's sophomore-dominated team as the favorite by any stretch in 2008-09.  As I have looked at this IWU rebuilding situation realistically, I have been thinking that 2009-10 is the year the Titans will really be a power again.  And hopefully thereafter, the Titans are back to where the program always was - a CCIW contender/Top 25 team every year via consistent recruiting of quality student-athletes.

IWU will add some good recruits this year that will have an impact next year, but I don't see the Titans quite "back" until 2009-10.  If it happens sooner, that's great.

At the beginning of this season, I was hoping the Titans would turn the corner this year.  As the non-conference played out though, it was clear that this team is terribly inconsistent - like most young teams are. 

Add to that the 2009 CCIW race is loaded with senior-led teams.  The Titans just cannot seem to handle Kent Raymond and Wheaton, Chris Drennan/Matt Rogers and North Central, Brent Ruch/Ryan Burks and Elmhurst...Augie will be huge trouble as well.  IWU desperately needs an upperclass star to lead the way vs these teams (which Darius Gant turned out to be last year for them), but that player is just simply not on the roster.

I still think IWU can turn it around and complete for that #4 spot in the conference tournament, so I'll still enjoy following the Titans very much every Wednesday and Saturday.  Realistically though, now, this season seems to be about getting older and ready for next season.     

If you dig even deeper, you will realize this goes way beyond the players.
JMHO

[Gregory Sager]

Greg....I'm sorry, but I'm not buying the facilities gap argument for North Park anymore.

First of all, as a 1999 graduate of North Park, I am well aware of what a facilities gap is.  in the 1998-99 campaign, an observer coming to Foster and Kedzie might witness a baseball player taking swings in a 30-foot cage on the Crackerbox stage in lighting better suited for a billiards hall, an indoor track team running "sprints" in a carpeted hallway while dodging students coming out of John Hjelm's Personal Fitness class, or a basketball player lifting weights on machines acquired from the Superior Spring company at Foster and Elston in a dungeon-like atmosphere.  As an athlete, I envied the facilities I only had the opportunity to see on road trips.

Remarkaby, someone finally decided that the joke was on North Park, and the facilities were improved vastly.  A high school player of mine was being recruited to play football and baseball last year at North Park, along with a couple of other CCIW schools.  You know what excited him the most about NP?  The FACILITIES.  Namely, the Holmgren Athletic Center, which while unique in its layout, is not paralleled by ANY school in the CCIW for preparation and practice purposes.

You're arguing apples and oranges, VB. The upgrade to Holmgren Athletic Complex and the construction of the Helwig Recreation Center have indeed leveled the playing field to a great degree for the NPU football and baseball programs. However, we're not talking about football and baseball. I said that the facilities gap was affecting the men's basketball team, because that's what Bob and I were talking about. His initial point was that the NPU men's basketball head coaching position was not a "primo D3 job," and this was my response:

I'm certainly not offended, Bob, because I think that you're essentially right. I would only change what you said to read, "NPU ain't exactly a primo CCIW job." North Park's resources are not bottom-of-the-scale when you look at D3 as a whole, but in terms of the league the Park lags behind in facilities. That's acutely apparent in men's basketball more than the other sports, because the crackerbox is so tiny and antiquated. A modern and spacious gym really does make a tremendous difference when it comes to recruiting, and it also conveys the impression to everyone who enters it that the school cares about fielding a winning basketball program.

Holmgren Athletic Complex's upgrade doesn't make one iota of difference for the NPU men's basketball team, because the team doesn't do anything at that facility except sell chips and pop at the refreshment stand during Vikings football games. And while Helwig is a nice addition from the basketball perspective, in that it has vastly better weight-training facilities for the players and two full-sized basketball courts that allow the team to practice at the same time every day rather than rotating shifts with the women's basketball team in the crackerbox, those are minor and relatively inconspicuous improvements to the basketball program's profile. It's the gym itself in which the team plays (and conducts half of its practices) that matters in the eyes of the general public, and in the eyes of the prospects that are being recruited by North Park. And because that gym is so badly outdated and inadequate, NPU is definitely behind its competitors and suffers from a facilities gap in that one particular sport.

I have a hard time feeling "bad" for the basketball team that has always had the luxury of taking coach buses to away games and plays in front of the largest crowds of any team at North Park.  So long as the gym floor is clean (check), fairly new (check), and the lights work (check), how is having fancy seats going to make anyone want to go to North Park more.

Now you truly sound more like an NPU baseball player than the NPU public address announcer. I agree that the basketball team gets more attention than other sports at North Park (except for men's soccer, but I sense that neither you nor I want to go down that road), but it's all relative. The fact that the men's basketball team travels by coach rather than by minivans really doesn't add up to anything in terms of recruiting; I doubt that any prospects are even made aware of that fact, and most of NPU's recruiting competitors travel by coach as well. And NPU's basketball crowds, while healthy in comparison to the school's other sports, aren't any bigger than those of the teams with which the Park usually competes on the recruiting trail (with a few exceptions, such as Benedictine and Lake Forest).

Remember, this isn't about how the NPU men's basketball team compares to the school's other teams in terms of facilities and/or support. This is about how the NPU men's basketball team compares to its basketball competitors from other schools. And it suffers in that comparison as far as the gym is concerned. I've heard it from opposing fans. I've heard it from opposing players. I've heard it from opposing coaches who keep wondering when NPU is going to put the money together to build a new gym. As longtime Vikings fan, former member of the NPU Board of Trustees, and occasional CCIW Chat poster Omaha put it, the crackerbox was outdated even when it was newly built back in 1957. Forget the new and well-kept floor and the fact that the school keeps paying the bills for the lights; the fact of the matter is that prospects are turned off by the size and age of the gym (as well as that ridiculous eyesore and waste of space at the east end called a stage, about which Rob Berki once trenchantly commented that it reminded him nostalgically of his days playing basketball for his middle school). Whether you or I think that the gym's aesthetics are important doesn't matter. The fact is that it does matter to a lot of prospects.

Fact is, North Park recruits in the middle of a basketball hotbed....the city of Chicago!  Don't tell me that other CCIW schools wouldn't love to have such a gold mine of talent right at their fingertips.  Bring a kid from Roosevelt, or Foreman, or Amundsen, or even Lane Tech into North Park's gym, and you would think that kid is seeing the United Center for the first time.

Agreed, but the issue is this: Can the kid from Roosevelt or Foreman or Amundsen academically qualify for, or economically support, a North Park education? In most cases, the answer is no. The vast majority of good Public League players that don't get basketball scholarships are not feasible NPU prospects because they don't have either the grades or the test scores (or both) to get into North Park. The pool is drastically narrowed down to the better student-athletes at the more academically high-end Chicago public schools such as Morgan Park (Jay Alexander's alma mater), Lincoln Park (Jason Gordon's alma mater), and Von Steuben (Lewis Wilson's alma mater). And many of the city's academically superior public schools, such as Northside Prep, Jones Prep, and Payton, rarely turn out CCIW-quality basketball prospects.

This carries over into other sports, too. The NPU baseball team will get the occasional kid from Clemente or Lane Tech who can handle the schoolwork and the tuition, but even in those cases a lot of the kids have to go the juco route first. NPU football coach Scott Pethtel won't even look at Public League players anymore, because he's been burned too many times by their inability to stay academically eligible at North Park.

Another problem is the fact that most city kids are completely uncoached in terms of basketball technique and strategy. They don't have the money to afford summer basketball camps like the suburban kids, and they don't attend junior highs and high schools that have large coaching staffs or multiple teams for every grade. Heck, some junior highs and grammar schools in the Chicago public school system don't even have basketball teams, because there's nobody to coach them. As I write this, I'm sitting a block away from a K-8 Chicago public grammar school, McPherson Elementary, that doesn't have a basketball team -- not even for the seventh- and eighth-graders -- because they lack a coach. A guy from my church went over to McPherson the other day and volunteered to create and coach a basketball team for the seventh- and eighth-graders, and the principal practically leaped over her desk and hugged him. A lot of Chicago high school teams reflect this ad hoc process as well; too many Public League coaches simply roll the ball out onto the floor and let their kids play street ball. It's not that Chicago kids don't want to play organized and disciplined ball, or that they're incapable of playing organized and disciplined ball; they simply don't know how to do it, because nobody's ever instructed them. That's why their technique and halfcourt sets awareness tends to lag so far behind their basic skills and their athleticism when they get to college. Over the years, NPU coaches have had to do a certain amount of remedial teaching of their city-bred players in the nuances of organized basketball that other coaches around the league haven't had to do.

In other words ... yeah, the school's urban location is an advantage in some respects as far as the basketball team is concerned. But that advantage is a lot more circumscribed than people think, and of course it's canceled out to some degree by the same problem that other NPU coaches have -- the problem of luring suburban kids to come to attend school in the big, bad, noisy, dangerous city.

I think that Paul Brenegan and his staff have hit upon the proper way to harness the advantage of the school's urban location while at the same time ensuring that they're not wasting their time pursuing kids who are incapable of handling NPU's classroom demands: They recruit the Chicago Catholic League heavily. That's a good basketball league, one of the state's best, and the kids that go to CCL schools tend to be both better coached and better academically suited to handle NPU. North Park might be the only evangelical Protestant college or university in the country whose basketball team can recite the "Hail Mary" in unison.

I agree with you that accountability is accountability, and that Paul Brenegan has to be held responsible for wins and losses just like any other coach. Institutional disadvantages are not get-out-of-jail-free cards; I think that NPU is capable of establishing a successful CCIW men's basketball program, and that Brenegan (and any other coach the school might hire for that sport) has to be held to that standard. But you and I are in agreement that he's a good coach, and that he's made progress -- and I also think that you and I agree that calling for his head in the midst of a difficult and aberrational season, in which a lot of things beyond his control have gone wrong, is precipitous and unwarranted.

[andrewmp]

It's the gym itself in which the team plays (and conducts half of its practices) that matters in the eyes of the general public, and in the eyes of the prospects that are being recruited by North Park. And because that gym is so badly outdated and inadequate, NPU is definitely behind its competitors and suffers from a facilities gap in that one particular sport.

And it suffers in that comparison as far as the gym is concerned. I've heard it from opposing fans. I've heard it from opposing players. I've heard it from opposing coaches who keep wondering when NPU is going to put the money together to build a new gym. As longtime Vikings fan, former member of the NPU Board of Trustees, and occasional CCIW Chat poster Omaha put it, the crackerbox was outdated even when it was newly built back in 1957. Forget the new and well-kept floor and the fact that the school keeps paying the bills for the lights; the fact of the matter is that prospects are turned off by the size and age of the gym (as well as that ridiculous eyesore and waste of space at the east end called a stage, about which Rob Berki once trenchantly commented that it reminded him nostalgically of his days playing basketball for his middle school). Whether you or I think that the gym's aesthetics are important doesn't matter. The fact is that it does matter to a lot of prospects.

When I was there a little over a week ago, I pointed out the championship banners to the person I was sitting with, and then pointed to the aforementioned stage, which was very close to my right.  My comment was that the gym was poor compared to my high school gym; a smaller school in New Hampshire that was built back in the 60s.  And my school was notoriously cheap for their athletics, not wanting to put up money to help pay for championship jackets for the track team after their sixth straight state championship...the comment was, "Well, if we have won it six straight times, it must not be that hard."  Maybe there is a sense among the powers that be that since there has been success in the past, why would there be a need for a new gym?

[Gregory Sager]

Maybe there is a sense among the powers that be that since there has been success in the past, why would there be a need for a new gym?

No, it's not that. Enough time has passed since the last national title in '87, and enough bad NPU basketball teams have been run out onto the court in the crackerbox since then, that most of the powers-that-be are keenly aware that the gym is a present-day obstacle to the basketball team's success. A lot of other schools with whom NPU competes on either the court or on the recruiting trail (or both) have either upgraded their gyms since '87 or built entirely new ones, while the crackerbox has just gotten older and shabbier-looking.

The problem is that: a) some of NPU's powers-that-be aren't all that concerned with athletics, which is probably true at a lot of D3 schools; and b) those powers-that-be that are concerned are faced with a small (and diminishing, in this current economic climate) fundraising base and endowment, and see little or no prospect of getting the scratch together to build a new gym anytime soon -- unless the Rob Berki Plan to win the Powerball jackpot comes through, that is.

Keep in mind that there are several intractable problems to building a new gym for NPU besides the lack of money with which to build it. One is that the school doesn't currently own a piece of property that has a suitably large footprint for a new gym, which means that North Park would have to purchase more land in order to build one -- and real estate within the vicinity of the campus is ruinously expensive, enough to make building a new gym vastly more expensive than it would be elsewhere. Another problem is that the school deals with expansion and development upon an everybody-takes-turns priority-list basis in terms of new construction, rotating between different departments of the school. Athletics has just had its turn, what with the refurbishing of Holmgren Athletic Complex and the construction of Helwig. Now it's either the turn of the fine arts department (the school badly needs a new music building) or student services (new dining hall / student center) or housing (growing student population requires more apartment buildings or dorms), etc. Athletics has to go back to the end of the line as far as new construction is concerned, short of a directed gift. In other words, it's only likely that a new gym will be built within the next decade if someone connected to North Park who has just invented something that the world absolutely has to have, such as sugar-coated peanuts or work tools that snap together  , wants to specifically foot the bill for a new gym.

[petemcb]

Maybe there is a sense among the powers that be that since there has been success in the past, why would there be a need for a new gym?

No, it's not that. Enough time has passed since the last national title in '87, and enough bad NPU basketball teams have been run out onto the court in the crackerbox since then, that most of the powers-that-be are keenly aware that the gym is a present-day obstacle to the basketball team's success. A lot of other schools with whom NPU competes on either the court or on the recruiting trail (or both) have either upgraded their gyms since '87 or built entirely new ones, while the crackerbox has just gotten older and shabbier-looking.

The problem is that: a) some of NPU's powers-that-be aren't all that concerned with athletics, which is probably true at a lot of D3 schools; and b) those powers-that-be that are concerned are faced with a small (and diminishing, in this current economic climate) fundraising base and endowment, and see little or no prospect of getting the scratch together to build a new gym anytime soon -- unless the Rob Berki Plan to win the Powerball jackpot comes through, that is.

Keep in mind that there are several intractable problems to building a new gym for NPU besides the lack of money with which to build it. One is that the school doesn't currently own a piece of property that has a suitably large footprint for a new gym, which means that North Park would have to purchase more land in order to build one -- and real estate within the vicinity of the campus is ruinously expensive, enough to make building a new gym vastly more expensive than it would be elsewhere. Another problem is that the school deals with expansion and development upon an everybody-takes-turns priority-list basis in terms of new construction, rotating between different departments of the school. Athletics has just had its turn, what with the refurbishing of Holmgren Athletic Complex and the construction of Helwig. Now it's either the turn of the fine arts department (the school badly needs a new music building) or student services (new dining hall / student center) or housing (growing student population requires more apartment buildings or dorms), etc. Athletics has to go back to the end of the line as far as new construction is concerned, short of a directed gift. In other words, it's only likely that a new gym will be built within the next decade if someone connected to North Park who has just invented something that the world absolutely has to have, such as sugar-coated peanuts or work tools that snap together  , wants to specifically foot the bill for a new gym.

Is it true that the inventor of the Swedish meatball is tied in to NPU in some Scandinavian kind of way?  Maybe it's time to tap into some of that!

[Mugsy]

Is it true that the inventor of the Swedish meatball is tied in to NPU in some Scandinavian kind of way?  Maybe it's time to tap into some of that!

Although anyone who has tried my grandmothers Swedish meatballs absolutely loves them, I don't think there is much to revenue to pull from the inventor of the Swedish meatball.   

Now... if you could get the official Swedish meatball served at McDonalds, BK, etc... then you'd have something. 

[Dennis_Prikkel]

GS - unfortunately, all of your pro-Brenegan arguments and constant recitation of this year's litany of woes are undermined and tainted because "you are on the payroll" sir.

1- NPU fans have legitimate reasons that go well beyond an antiquated gym and uncaring "powers that be" for the current state of its once flag-ship basketball program.

2- This coaching regime has continually failed to keep kids in school.  Pollyanna voices tell us each year "just wait til these kids are juniors and seniors".  A legimate question for this year would be: What happened to the freshman class from three years ago?  What happened to the freshman class from two years ago?  Why are there are there so few juniors and seniors on this year's team?

3- Why does a starter from last year suddenly quit the team three weeks before the season starts?  And another often used shooter for two years become so dis-enchanted with the program he leaves school.  Good coaches know how to get good shooters shots - even the slow ones.

4- Why has this regime failed to develop any talent once they reach the gym?  (This year's returning all-conference player has regressed, rather than progressed?)

5- It's sad state demonstrated time and again over the last decade that players when they first don the Blue and Gold for the first time are as good as they are going to get.

DGP

[omaha]

As Greg has mentioned North Park's gym was not designed very well for basketball because it was designed as an auditorium and a gymnasium.  There is a stage at the east end that gives the gym a high school appearance.  There are also exit doors in north side of the gym in the middle of the court.  This eliminates over 200 choice seats in the middle of the bleachers.

The seating capacity is smaller than the other gyms in the CCIW. North Park administrators probably thought the seating capacity was large enough for basketball crowds when it was built in 1958 because the games did not attract huge crowds. The games were played in nearby highs chool gyms. The basketball court in the previous gym was not regulation size and there were no bleachers in that gym. The crowds increased when the games were played on campus. North Park soon learned the capacity of the gym should have been larger because it was filled to capacity when North Park won its first CCIW championship in 1969. 

Despite these flaws North Park's gymnasium was actually better than most of the other gyms in the conference when North Park joined the CCIW in 1961

School         Gymnasium   Built      Notes
Augustana     Gymnasium        1916     Seating capacity of 1,000
Carroll         Ganfield Gym   1923     Replaced by Van Male Fieldhouse in 1965
Carthage         Fieldhouse   1930     Replaced by Physical Education Center in 1965
Elmhurst         Goebel Hall   1928     Played games at off-campus high school gym
Ill Wesleyan   Memorial Gym   1923     Replaced by Fred Young Gym in 1962
Lake Forest    Alumni                1951    Renovated into ice arena for hockey team in 1970
Millikin         Gymnasium    1912    Played games at off-campus high school gyms
N Central       Merner    1931    Still used by school
North Park     Gymnasium         1958    Seating capacity of 1400
Wheaton         Centennial    1959    Seating capacity of 3,600. Renovated in 2000

Any advantage North Park had quickly vanished as other schools built new facilities: Augustana (1971), Carroll (1965), Carthage (1965), Elmhurst (1983), Illinois Wesleyan (1994), Millikin (1970), and Wheaton (1959).

[mr_b]

Nice work on the history of CCIW gyms, Omaha!