MBB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

[AndOne]

IMHO, NCC plays the best half court, help line, ball level defense. They are not deep, not quick, and not big but unlike a few teams in this league, they out work teams on the defensive end.

I think this is a very fair assessment, especially in last night's game against Wheaton.  They were tenacious and constantly doubling down on Wiele.  Wheaton couldn't do much to get a flow going around that.  

As for the rest of the "NCC played well/don't downplay the game by saying the refs stunk" debate:
At the half, NCC was up by 6.  At the end of the game, the margin was essentially the same, plus a handful of freethrows (see the aforementioned T's).  The 2nd half was essentially stop and go for its entirety, and any time Wheaton got a flow going, the whistles stopped them.  Good luck putting momentum together to make up some ground, especially when the calls are so random as to disrupt anything that's going well.

While it seemed Wheaton was playing 5 on 8, the foul calls were evenly dispersed- at least on paper.  The refs were calling a game that reflects their need to better understand how officiating can affect a game and it's flow.  I believe the 2nd half took an hour to play out.  I also heard the refs were putting blistex on during time outs to treat burned lips from blistering hot whistles.  That is not yet confirmed.  The few times that NCC and Wheaton were able to make baskets or rebounds without a whistle were a welcome relief.  The game was so out of control that NCC and Wheaton should request a time to re-play the 2nd half.

If Wheaton was beaten in any regard, as both teams surrendered back door hustle plays, multiple T's,  and a fair distribution of scoring from the opposing players, it was in their inability to withstand the mental challenge that the game presented.  In a tough gym, with tough refs, with players still recuperating, and coming off back-to-back losses after a strong 1st half of the season, the game represented a challenge that required more than just skill and ability.  If Wheaton wants to show that they are capable of regaining their #1 form, they need to step up to the challenge and find the mental toughness to pull these games out.  I'm confident they'll see this as a learning game, and realize the CCIW is full of challenges for the rest of the season, and if they can win these, they can win against most other teams.  

NCC played a strong, even game, applied pressure as needed, and outlasted their opponent once they had the lead.  Good hustle and great D as mentioned.  I'd love to see the teams match up again.  

CCIW----

Please disregard my post # 17850. As CP pointed out, I incorrectly combined a quote from Pistol with one of yours. Sorry Pistol.

CCIW---Please see your 2 above quotes which I highlighted.
Are you saying the refs crummy calls favored NCC, and that Wheaton was not an equal beneficiary of blown calls? If so, are you basing your opinion on the fact WC was whistled for 3 techs while NCC rec'd only 2? Do you believe the refs cost Wheaton the victory? Please explain as I'm not sure what you're saying. Thanks.

[Gregory Sager]

pistol...your accurate assessment of NCC's defense is the key to their current success.

This should not come as a surprise. We all laud the D that Grey Giovanine gets out of his Augie players every year, and rightly so. But NCC consistently plays a very high level of defense every year as well (although I thought it was a bit down last season), and the Cards get it done without a lot of the fanfare that Augie gets. More than anything else, that's the place where NCC has improved so much from the Taylor era to the Raridon era.

[John Gleich]

Listening to WETN.  With 4:11 to play and Wheaton still in the game, Bill Harris really lost his cool...the WETN crew is right next to the Wheaton bench (I've worked from there) and their mics picked it all up.  I have never heard Coach Harris that out of control.

Could be the game.

For the record, I did not hear any "inappropriate" language at all.

This might be a little late in the discussion... but I wonder if Coach Harris gets penalized because it's known that he doesn't use inappropriate language.  Whereas those words are regular parts of other certain coaches' language, and thus they flow freely and aren't penalized, should he ever use one or even come CLOSE to using one, then the line has been crossed and he gets T'd up.  Coach Bennett at UWSP was much the same when he was there, as is the current coach, Coach Semling.  I don't know if Sem has been T'd up in his tenure, but Coach Bennett got his share of T's and got tossed out of a few games, and he didn't swear even one time.  Now, certainly, I know that there are plenty of other things you can do to get a T... but it seems like other coach's antics go far beyond this on a regular basis... and coaches like Coach Harris are penalized when they get upset because they don't.

[CCIWchamp]

CCIW----

Please disregard my post # 17850. As CP pointed out, I incorrectly combined a quote from Pistol with one of yours. Sorry Pistol.

CCIW---Please see your 2 above quotes which I highlighted.
Are you saying the refs crummy calls favored NCC, and that Wheaton was not an equal beneficiary of blown calls? If so, are you basing your opinion on the fact WC was whistled for 3 techs while NCC rec'd only 2? Do you believe the refs cost Wheaton the victory? Please explain as I'm not sure what you're saying. Thanks.

No problem. 
What I meant to say is that the game essentially ended up as 2 distinct halves:

In the first half NCC used strong defense and help side/double downs to create the lead they had at halftime.  They came storming back from an early deficit in this manner to be +6 at the break.  This lead is essentially what secured the win as the second half was much less about basketball, and much more about the whistle.  Take the 6 points, throw in 4 free throws from THE INCIDENT, add a splash of last minute foul free throws and you have the same score carried to the end of the game.  This is essentially where the game was ended by the refs as they decided to take a good game and do something different with it. 

The second half was essentially 3 referees practicing making calls in an actual game, as though they had never done it before.  Blown calls, okay calls, miscellaneous calls, too many calls- whatever- it was as though NCC and Wheaton were there entirely to provide a 5 on 5 matchup for the refs to oversee as part of a class or certification perhaps.  Or an excuse to show basketball fans how to ruin enjoyable events.  In other words, it was entirely removed from the first half, which consisted largely of basketball.

Now, did the crummy calls go both ways?  Absolutely.  The refereeing was consistent only in how terrible it was.  However, the centerpiece of this effort was clearly the foul/triple T event that happened at a critical time in the game, effectively putting the damper on Wheaton's scraping back to within 2 points with 4 free throws for NCC.  Did it cost them the game?  I'd argue that it hurt Wheaton more as the team trailing entering the second half.  Had NCC been down and the second half played out similarly, they would've lost as they likewise would've been stalled by the whistles in stringing together anything.  As it was, NCC faltered under the refs' whistles in part two as compared to their first half play.  Fans of both sides have equal rights to feeling angry about the handling of the second half.   

So, to rethink my previous post, I believe that is what I was trying to say.  The whistles disrupted everyone's flow, and Wheaton, the team trailing, needed to get their flow going more than NCC.  As neither were able to, NCC benefitted more, as it had a few points of cushion from (what should be called) the actual game (the first half) to fall back on and outlast Wheaton.  They got those points from good D in the first half. 

What's frustrating is instead of getting to see how Wheaton was going to look after 2 losses and Raymond returning against NCC in a tough place to play/fun place to watch, I feel I learned very little about either team, and instead a lot about how bad referees can take enjoyment out of watching basketball.  If I were on one of the teams, I'd schedule a rematch of the 2nd half... kinda like when Rocky fights that guy in Rocky 5 out in the street?  Not the grudge match aspect of that scene- more just to see the game played out without so much interference.  Maybe if it were in the tournament they'd do that.  Lastly, there were quite a few cameras on the game last night- I would've sworn one of them was from a hidden camera show and one of the refs was really that Borat guy.  

[Gregory Sager]

I will say this: All of this discussion about the WC @ NCC debacle has, in a perverse way, made me really sorry that I didn't see the game myself. It's like a really gruesome traffic accident that you pass by on your way to work; the more elaborate your description of it, the more your listeners secretly wish that they'd been in the car with you.

[Titan Q]

A health update on IWU freshman Eric McCullough (6-9/220), who has never been quite right this season...

Doctors found last week that he has Hip Impingements - bone growth on the hip sockets.   Its is very painful and is corrected by surgery. Unfortunately, it is not orthoscopic.  Eric will have the surgery after the baseball season (it does not hurt when he pitches). Full recovery in about 3 months.

Hopefully he is 100% and ready to go at the start of his sophomore basketball season.  He is still practicing as he can and playing some JV minutes.

[Viking Mike]

Does anyone know how Bertrand is doing in regards to his ankle injury?
Is he close to playing?
Can we expect to see him Saturday against Wiele and Wheaton???

[Titan Q]

CCIW's top scorers by class, conference games only (used the CCIW.org stats and added Raymond and Wiele):

Seniors
Kent Raymond, PG (Wheaton) - 27.3
Brent Ruch, C (Elmhurst) - 17.6
Chris Drennan, PF (North Central) - 16.0
Ryan Burks, G/F (Elmhurst) - 14.7
Matt Rogers, PF (North Central) - 13.7
Andy Wiele, C (Wheaton) - 12.2
Brett Wessels, SG (Augustana) - 11.9
Tunde Ogunleye, G/F (Millikin) - 11.0
Mitch Raridon, SG (North Central) - 10.9
Mark Patrick, PG (Millikin) - 8.4
Chandlor Collins, PF (Augustana) - 7.8
Alex Washington, G/F (Augustana) - 7.6
Dustin Bainter, PG (Elmhurst) - 7.0

Juniors
Nick Williams, PF (North Park) - 13.1
Sean Fendley, SG (Carthage) - 12.9
Chris Childs, SG (Elmhurst) - 12.7
Ben Panner, SG (Wheaton) - 11.7
David Twyman, SF (North Central) - 10.6
Joscar Demby, C (Millikin) - 9.1
Robert Burton, SF/PF (Millikin) - 8.9
Matt Pelton, PG (Augustana) - 8.5
Reid Barringer, SG (North Central) - 8.1
Corey Mitchell, SG (Millikin) - 7.7
Adam Tolo, PF (Carthage) - 7.0

Sophomores
Steve Djurickovic, PG (Carthage) - 25.0
Doug Sexauer, PF (Illinois Wesleyan) - 15.1
Travis Rosenkranz, PG (Illinois Wesleyan) - 12.1
Sean Johnson, SG (Illinois Wesleyan) - 10.4
Phil Schniedermeier, PF (North Park) - 9.1

Freshmen
Roshawn Russell, PG (North Park) - 15.9
Tim McCrary, PF (Wheaton) - 11.0
Jordan Zimmer, G/F (Illinois Wesleyan) - 10.6
John Koschnitzky, SF/PF (Illinois Wesleyan) - 9.4

[Dennis_Prikkel]

i really liked the matchup of the two sophomore centers in the North Park / Augustana game.  I think both NP's Schneidermeier and Augie's Nelson should be standout stars in the league the next two years.  The both play well with their back to the baskets, they're both physical, and they're both offensive minded.

dgp

[tjcummingsfan]

I agree Dennis, that was the one high point in watching the game Wednesday, seeing that NP finally has a sizable low post presence.  What's it been 6+ years?

[Gregory Sager]

I agree Dennis, that was the one high point in watching the game Wednesday, seeing that NP finally has a sizable low post presence.  What's it been 6+ years?

Sizewise, yeah, Schniedermeier's the biggest center that NPU has had in eight years (except for Biggie Thurman, whom we'd all rather forget). But size isn't everything in a center. Anthony Lenoir was a pretty solid low-post player for NPU a mere two years ago, even though he was only about 6'6, 215. Lenoir's biggest problem wasn't his lack of size, it was that he didn't have a jumper that could keep opposing centers honest when he faced the basket. Stephano Jones was solid on that same NPU team, but he was hampered defensively by a lack of height.

I'm reluctant to reinforce Roberto's ego by saying this on CCIW Chat, but other than two years ago the only really effective center presence that NPU has had since Denny Keizer graduated in '99 was when Berki and the oft-injured Brandon Donaldson were the tandem that manned the middle at the start of this decade.

[HopeConvert]

Greg,

Love the Soulja Boy reference. +K if I could but your "Let's Make a Deal" reference is still lingering. 

The regulars in the MIAC room smacked me around pretty good a couple of weeks ago for not being able to identify a picture of Kanye West (ironically, the picture appeared in the midst of a discussion of the same Nietzsche quote that I just posted in that Bill Harris story about an hour ago). That cut me to the quick and made me feel like an old fogey, so getting a +k for a Soulja Boy reference is definitely better than getting a +k for a Monty Hall reference.

I take great pride in being oblivious to such references. Better an old fogey than either a) looking pathetic because you're trying to be hip; and b) wasting my time trying to keep up with the ephemera of contemporary culture. I'm happy not to know who this Soulja Boy is.

Interesting you'd get knocked around for that. The tyranny of youth culture.

[robertgoulet]

pistol...your accurate assessment of NCC's defense is the key to their current success.

This should not come as a surprise. We all laud the D that Grey Giovanine gets out of his Augie players every year, and rightly so. But NCC consistently plays a very high level of defense every year as well (although I thought it was a bit down last season), and the Cards get it done without a lot of the fanfare that Augie gets. More than anything else, that's the place where NCC has improved so much from the Taylor era to the Raridon era.

Speak of the devil....Taylor's currently coaching at Chicago State where he has one of the top scorer's in all of Division I (David Holston). Holston had 41 pts last night, and one of his teammates had 40.....but they lost to Utah Valley. They gave up 63 pts to UV's Ryan Toolson.

Final Score:
Utah Valley 123
Chicago St 121

Not much D going on there.

But in Taylor's defense (ha!), he has done a pretty good job turning around the program.

[wheels81]

I think I heard some music , http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LH4-tOqLH94   while reading AO's dramatic description of the naperville redbirds play this year....

What happened when Wiele was double teamed in the post?  Why wasn't he kicking back outside for the open 3 or was the defense such that he couldn't?  That is what makes the post game effective.  Either pound it inside to open the outside jumper or hit the 3 to loosen the post.    Sort of like football some teams run the ball to open the passing game or pass the ball to open the run game.  When you can't hit the 3 as was the case in naperville (3 of 15) then that really limits the inside game and makes it easier to defend.  So maybe I answered my own question here.

[andrewmp]

I think I heard some music , http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LH4-tOqLH94   after reading AO's dramatic description of the naperville redbirds play this year....

What happened when Wiele was double teamed in the post?  Why wasn't he kicking back outside for the open 3 or was the defense such that he couldn't?  That is what makes the post game effective.  Either pound it inside to open the outside jumper or hit the 3 to loosen the post.    Sort of like football some teams run the ball to open the passing game or pass the ball to open the run game.  When you can't hit the 3 as was the case in naperville (3 of 15) then that really limits the inside game and makes it easier to defend.  So maybe I answered my own question here.

I think that part of what happened was that 1) the NCC double team on Wiele caused frustration (he had two or three passes at least that were turnovers), and 2) (this is probably secondary, but still significant) The refs caused frustration for him as well.  For someone who isn't used to getting T-ed up, Wiele appeared rather timid to do much agressive the rest of the game in the low post.  I know that he was called for travelling twice, and the one in the first half was right in front of me, and it looked like to me as if he had kept his pivot foot (it also wasn't the ref that was right there who called it but the one who was closer to half court...one of the two who had been the main contributors to the debacle).  The other was immediately followed by the T.  Especially with Drennan out in the second half, he needed to be more aggresive down low, like he did against Carthage in the second half.