MBB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

[sac]

I'm pretty sure all anyone can do is compare stats...I doubt anyone has seen 'em both.


Darnell Braswell, DeSales (6-1 Jr): 16.9 ppg, 7.7 rpg, 2.5 apg, 0.9 A:TO, .408 FG, .327 3-pt, .637 FT
Kent Raymond, Wheaton (6-3 Sr): 24.0 ppg, 3.2 rpg, 3.3 apg, 1.9 A:TO, .502 FG, .377 3-pt, .890 FT

Most difficult factor to weigh is relative strength of competition.

Well the only "schedule strength" numbers out there are OWP and OOWP

http://d3hoops.com/salem/09/owp.htm

Wheaton #5, DeSales #184

[sac]

I'm pretty sure all anyone can do is compare stats...I doubt anyone has seen 'em both.


Darnell Braswell, DeSales (6-1 Jr): 16.9 ppg, 7.7 rpg, 2.5 apg, 0.9 A:TO, .408 FG, .327 3-pt, .637 FT
Kent Raymond, Wheaton (6-3 Sr): 24.0 ppg, 3.2 rpg, 3.3 apg, 1.9 A:TO, .502 FG, .377 3-pt, .890 FT

Most difficult factor to weigh is relative strength of competition.

Well the only "schedule strength" numbers out there are OWP and OOWP

...and what Q posted 

[Mugsy]

I'm pretty sure all anyone can do is compare stats...I doubt anyone has seen 'em both.


Darnell Braswell, DeSales (6-1 Jr): 16.9 ppg, 7.7 rpg, 2.5 apg, 0.9 A:TO, .408 FG, .327 3-pt, .637 FT
Kent Raymond, Wheaton (6-3 Sr): 24.0 ppg, 3.2 rpg, 3.3 apg, 1.9 A:TO, .502 FG, .377 3-pt, .890 FT

Most difficult factor to weigh is relative strength of competition.

Massey has Wheaton's schedule #11 in Division III...DeSales #215.

http://www.mratings.com/rate.php?lg=cb&yr=2009&sub=III&mid=6

Thanks... while Wheaton clearly plays a more difficult schedule (which I believe is quite obvious given the conference strength), I should have been more specific.  I was thinking a bit more granularly - strength of play at the guard position.  Though that doesn't paint the whole picture either.

I confess I'm more of a lurker than poster for bball, so I'll go back to my cave and allow the more knowledgeable posters handle this.   

[usee]

I'm pretty sure all anyone can do is compare stats...I doubt anyone has seen 'em both.


Darnell Braswell, DeSales (6-1 Jr): 16.9 ppg, 7.7 rpg, 2.5 apg, 0.9 A:TO, .408 FG, .327 3-pt, .637 FT
Kent Raymond, Wheaton (6-3 Sr): 24.0 ppg, 3.2 rpg, 3.3 apg, 1.9 A:TO, .502 FG, .377 3-pt, .890 FT

Most difficult factor to weigh is relative strength of competition.

Massey has Wheaton's schedule #11 in Division III...DeSales #215.

http://www.mratings.com/rate.php?lg=cb&yr=2009&sub=III&mid=6

Thanks... while Wheaton clearly plays a more difficult schedule (which I believe is quite obvious given the conference strength), I should have been more specific.  I was thinking a bit more granularly - strength of play at the guard position.  Though that doesn't paint the whole picture either.

I confess I'm more of a lurker than poster for bball, so I'll go back to my cave and allow the more knowledgeable posters handle this.   

yes Mugsy, leave it to us experts.  8)

[Mr. Ypsi]

I'm pretty sure all anyone can do is compare stats...I doubt anyone has seen 'em both.


Darnell Braswell, DeSales (6-1 Jr): 16.9 ppg, 7.7 rpg, 2.5 apg, 0.9 A:TO, .408 FG, .327 3-pt, .637 FT
Kent Raymond, Wheaton (6-3 Sr): 24.0 ppg, 3.2 rpg, 3.3 apg, 1.9 A:TO, .502 FG, .377 3-pt, .890 FT

Most difficult factor to weigh is relative strength of competition.

Massey has Wheaton's schedule #11 in Division III...DeSales #215.

http://www.mratings.com/rate.php?lg=cb&yr=2009&sub=III&mid=6

Thanks... while Wheaton clearly plays a more difficult schedule (which I believe is quite obvious given the conference strength), I should have been more specific.  I was thinking a bit more granularly - strength of play at the guard position.  Though that doesn't paint the whole picture either.

I confess I'm more of a lurker than poster for bball, so I'll go back to my cave and allow the more knowledgeable posters handle this.   

yes Mugsy, leave it to us experts.  8)

Actually, I thought Mugsy raised a very good (and probably unresolvable) issue.  Clearly Raymond faces better opponents (and is almost certainly the better player), but he also almost certainly has more talented teammates.  While other teams clearly focus most strongly on Raymond, they focus TOO much on him at their peril (with Wiele, Panner, McCrary, etc., all prepared to make them pay).

Since I confess I hadn't ever even heard of Braswell until this discussion (apparently I'm not alone - the fantasy league draft has 10 teams of 5 players each: Braswell was not selected), I'll switch to Jimmy Bartolotta of MIT instead.  Last I checked, his numbers across the board are even better than Kent's.  But they have to be, or MIT is essentially nothing.  MIT probably has an even easier schedule than DeSales, but his teammates are probably even worse.  Which is the harder road (in terms of stats): THE guy on a so-so team, with little help, probably always double-teamed, but the single focus of the offense, or the probable national POY, a threat for Ben Strong numbers in any given game, with tougher opponents but also tougher teammates?

[CCIWchamps]

I had a brief discussion with him on the MAC thread, but he seems to be making his case entirely on yesterday's game where Braswell went for 27 points.  

"My comments on Braswell were simply made because he has had an unbelievable year to this point.  He deserves All-American consideration and as the SID of DeSales, it is my job to campaign, publicize, and promote an athlete's accomplishments.  So after his dominating performance on Saturday, I wanted to get the word out in as many places as I could to promote him for All-American.  The more people that read this, the better."

He continued, "I wish you would pay us the same respect and not pass judgement on whether he was or was not a complete player just by looking at a stat sheet.  Sure he may have more turnovers than assists, but when a guy plays 35+ minutes in all of our key games and touches the ball as much as he does, he's bound to turn the ball over a few times."

How do I explain to him that All-Americans should thrive in those games, not give up more turnovers?  
And how do you say that Raymond played 45 minutes last night, scored 24 points, added 4 rebounds, had a 1:1 assist/turnover ratio (which is just above Brawell's season avg), and it was considered an off night?  
It obviously comes down to competition, and that only THREE of Desales opponents have fewer than 10 losses on the year says something that an SID should be able to understand.  He's happy to promote his best player, and that's fine.  I just wish he could see more competition to better understand what other talents and balanced players are out there.  I think his brain would melt on sight of Jeff Skemp walked into their gym as an opponent.

[Mr. Ypsi]

Give the poor guy a break - he admitted he's just doing his job!

To take on Kent Raymond was quite a stretch, but his player might make HM - next year!

[Jim Matson]

I know my brain melted when I saw him...and that was from 50 feet away.

[CCIWchamps]

Give the poor guy a break - he admitted he's just doing his job!

To take on Kent Raymond was quite a stretch, but his player might make HM - next year!

Oh I did, and I even told him he was succeeding at his job.  But I also told him I take no issue with Braswell's play- it's the SID's use of the term "all-around player" I want to challenge! 

[shepherd]

I don't think what happened (the defensive effort by both teams) last night between Wheaton and UWP was portrayed on the computer monitor.   The game with Wash U may be a classic but last nights game definitely was.  This game was closer defended than the CCIW games Wheaton played in this year.  What happened cannot be forced but happened because of the matchups and each team constantly upping the effort up a notch.  There were as many tip ins by Wheaton in this one game than they had all year.   Every shot was contested by both teams.   I mean no one held on to the ball too long or they got trapped and the ball was stolen.  I 'm not sure what shape Wheaton will come out in next week as they looked as if they were in a boxing match after the game.  Raymond couldn't have shot better from the field the way defense was being played.  Sure they could have shot better from the free throw line, but the pace of the game had something to do with that.  The players never stopped moving like they did in every other game.  The physical play that was going on away from the ball was very intense.   To watch this game felt like watching Rocky in the slow motion scenes were you begin to squint your face in pain.  Both teams should be commended for sportsmanship in such a physical game.  Also both teams' fans rooted hard for their team and created a great atmosphere.  My hands are bruised from clapping.

My point is that this game was special not because of the stats but due to the effort that both teams gave.  But don't take my word for it.   I hope Pat has one or both of the coaches and maybe a player on the Podcast to hear what they have to say about that game. 

[BJ - DSU SID]

Love the conversation guys.  Great stuff.

Thanks for taking an interest in our team and DSU's top player.

Hope to meet some of you at the Final Four.

By the way, who's Jeff Skemp? 

[Mr. Ypsi]

Love the conversation guys.  Great stuff.

Thanks for taking an interest in our team and DSU's top player.

Hope to meet some of you at the Final Four.

By the way, who's Jeff Skemp? 

Think Godzilla - on steroids!

[Pat Coleman]

Bill Harris was on Hoopsville tonight. So was DeSales coach Scott Coval, actually.

[Above The Rim]

I'm pretty sure all anyone can do is compare stats...I doubt anyone has seen 'em both.


Darnell Braswell, DeSales (6-1 Jr): 16.9 ppg, 7.7 rpg, 2.5 apg, 0.9 A:TO, .408 FG, .327 3-pt, .637 FT
Kent Raymond, Wheaton (6-3 Sr): 24.0 ppg, 3.2 rpg, 3.3 apg, 1.9 A:TO, .502 FG, .377 3-pt, .890 FT

Most difficult factor to weigh is relative strength of competition.

Well the only "schedule strength" numbers out there are OWP and OOWP

http://d3hoops.com/salem/09/owp.htm

Wheaton #5, DeSales #184

I think the primary consideration here is the level of competition a player faces night in and night out, particularly in the conference portion of the schedule. Accordingly, skipping to the bottom line, Braswell did not play in a conference where, in pre-season, 1/2 of the conference was ranked in the top 18 teams in the country. In fact, the competition faced by Raymond was so outstanding that the teams that finished 5th and 4th in the CCIW (Carthage and North Central) ranked 1st and 2nd in the above referenced OWP & OOWP report. Imagine what they could have done against the in-conference teams DeSales faced regularly.   

[B-Triple-Threat]

* I thought UW-Platteville got a terrible whistle the entire game.

Although I wouldn't go so far as to say it was a home whistle, I thought there were some really bad calls and the whistle definitely leaned wheaton's way. That said, Raymond got no calls tonight. Wheaton went to the line 37 times but Raymond didn't shoot a free throw until midway through the 2nd half and all but 2 of his 8 ft's, I believe, were from bonus situations and not shooting fouls. He was really hammered when he went to the hoop and the refs let it go. I think he got frustrated by that. I also think the large FT disparity was due in large part to UWP's very physical style. On balance, however, I thought UWP got more of the bad calls. There were 6 or 8 offensive fouls called and I thought maybe 2 of them were legit. The offensive pick against UWP at the start of the 2nd half was atrocious and so was the offensive foul on Raymond as he drove a minute later. I thought the overturned OB call was a good job as the ball was clearly knocked out by a Wheaton player.


Sitting courtside for this game, I must say my buddies and I did feel like Wheaton got the whistle advantage. No joke here, the first 6 calls of the game were made by the small, African-American referee, at least half of which were not his calls based on his positioning. The offensive pick foul on UWP that you are referring to is because right before the timeout that that play came from, Jahns got caught up in a screen getting to his man shooting a three and he went to the ground. After the timeout was called, he went right to the colored ref and asked him to watch the moving screen...sure enough next screen set gets called and it was completely clean.

In other thoughts, as was discussed on here, what was the Wheaton staff thinking not adjusting to their defense on Skemp? On one possesion in the first half, Wiele gave-up trying to get around him and Skemp got the ball just above the block. He did not even look to go at Wiele, he held the ball looking for a shooter and immediately passed it. I am intersted if any WIAC posters are on here how teams in the conference guarded him to keep him at 18.7 per game all year.

As a buddy of Carwell, it sucked not being able to see him on the floor for more of the game because of his foul trouble. His hot orange hyperdunks couldn't help the ref's whistle stay away from him, although his play with Wheaton up 1 at the end of regulation probably saved the Thunder's chances because they could not stop Skemp inside at all.