MBB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

[CCIWchamps]

Granted Raymond shot 7 of the 15 in the game, but I think he deserved a few more calls going to the hole.

I can't think of a single call Raymond did not get that he should have.

In particular I'm thinking of a drive in the first half where he was checked in midair and the ball ended up going out of bounds.  Wheaton got the ball back, but he should've gotten 2 FT's.  Also, they called a charge in the 2nd where the Wash U player was still setting his feet under the basket.  Other than that, I may just be blending the game with the UWP game in my head where Raymond was getting more abuse.

[Titan Q]

How was Wiele supposed to dominate against a constant double and often triple team on the block?  Great defensive scheme by Wash U.  They prepared like the defending national champions should and executed pretty darn well.  And when you say "IF Wheaton plays better defense in the first half..." all you are talking about is 1 more stop, or 1 less bucket.  That's the thing is that the game still came down to one possession and just 3 points.  Wheaton hits one extra three or a layup and a free throw, and we're talking about a win after the exact same game otherwise.  It was a defensive battle, and Wash U held on for the final lead.  

Wiele spent most of the game one-on-one with Zach Kelly - who Wiele is just simply a bigger, stronger better basketball player than - and he couldn't get position on the blocks.  Sure Wash U doubled when Wiele got the ball, but the reason Wiele was ineffective last night was that, one-on-one, he couldn't get himself open in the low post.

[Ralph Turner]

Random thoughts from the game tonight...

* Wash U, which has been to the last two NCAA Division III Final Fours, sure looked like the more experienced team tonight.  The Bears played with poise and composure...Wheaton did not.

* Sean Wallis was outstanding tonight.  In addition to being calm and cool with the ball all night long, he also aggressively looked for his shot.

* 6-5 power forward Cam Smith defended Kent Raymond about as well as I've ever seen anyone defend him.  Smith had zero points, but had a monster game for Wash U.

* On Wheaton's offensive end, Andy Wiele was beaten all night long down low by Wash U's big guys.  Wiele could not find a way to get position, and never made himself the low post threat the Thunder needed.

* At all times, it seemed like Wheaton had 3 players on the floor hoping Kent Raymond would do his thing.  Panner looked for his shot, and had a really nice flurry in the 2nd, but every other Thunder player looked scared.

* Wheaton's freshmen looked like freshmen.

* Mark Edwards is about as good as it gets in Division III.  If you want to see the definition of "well-coached", check out a Wash U game.


Wash U does not have a Kent Raymond, but they are more balanced than Wheaton, more experienced, play better defense, and proved tonight they are the better team.  Wash U is better than Wheaton by just the smallest margin (Wash U's #2 ranking to Wheaton's 3 sounds right to me), but it is enough margin that it mattered tonight on Wheaton's floor.   

I was extremely impressed by St. Thomas.  In the neutral court Sectional final, I favor Wash U because of their experience, but not by more than 2 points.  The Tommies don't have any superstars, but they play wonderfully together as a team.

Great synopsis of the game.  Thanks

[Titan Q]

In particular I'm thinking of a drive in the first half where he was checked in

Pat and I both quickly agreed on the broadcast that it was a good no-call.  Raymond was out of control on that drive and initiated all of the contact.  It would have been a bad block call, and it would have been a bad charge.  We both felt it was the perfect no-call, with the ball going to Wheaton baseline out-of-bounds.

[hopefan]

Thank you Wheaton, Thank you Wash U  -  can't tell you how much I enjoyed the game and crowd atmosphere, and the pure competitive nature of the teams, regardless of who won and who lost -  it's what D3 is all about....

[usee]

Q has made my points better than I could have. Going into the game I thought Wheaton was a 60-40 favorite. After watching the game I think WashU is a 60-40 favorite if they were to play again. WashU's experience play as a team was evident. Wahoo, their are 2 reasons I didn't like your argument. the first is what I just wrote but more importantly it just sounds like sour grapes when you come on here and immediately say Wheaton was a better team after a better team just beat our Thunder on their own floor.

I also couldn't agree more on Q's assessment of Wiele. He should have gotten himself position to either make easy layups before the double team arrived or have clear passing lanes to the shooters. He had the ball stolen several times from him because he either got position too far from the hoop and a guard could reach in or he held it too long and had nowhere to go with it. He also missed several easy layups including the put back. Take off you Orange glasses and call a spade a spade.

I am as big a Thunder supporter as their is but it was pretty clear to me we got beat by a better, more experienced team. I loved this team and will miss seeing them play. Raymond was a treat to watch over 5 years and Wiele is a warrior. In the end, our best wasn't good enough.

[Titan Q]

It feels like all of these Wash U kids should be due to graduate, but what is scary is who they return next year...

G Wallis (will use the hardship waiver from last year)
G Thompson
F
F Smith
C Kelley

(Knepper, Toth, Wolf, Richter)

They basically just lose Tyler Nading, and I think freshman Dylan Richter (who did not play last night due to injury) has a chance to step into that starting job and be close to as good as Nading next year and maybe a D3 All-American as a JR and SR.  (Totally different player than Nading, but plays the same position.)

The Bears will be loaded again in 2009-10 and with Richter and Toth, you can kind of already see that next wave coming (in addition to stud perimeter recruits who I'm sure they'll find).  Mark Edwards has Wash U in that "reloading" mode typical of every great program.

[WahooThunder]

Q has made my points better than I could have. Going into the game I thought Wheaton was a 60-40 favorite. After watching the game I think WashU is a 60-40 favorite if they were to play again. WashU's experience play as a team was evident. Wahoo, their are 2 reasons I didn't like your argument. the first is what I just wrote but more importantly it just sounds like sour grapes when you come on here and immediately say Wheaton was a better team after a better team just beat our Thunder on their own floor.

I also couldn't agree more on Q's assessment of Wiele. He should have gotten himself position to either make easy layups before the double team arrived or have clear passing lanes to the shooters. He had the ball stolen several times from him because he either got position too far from the hoop and a guard could reach in or he held it too long and had nowhere to go with it. He also missed several easy layups including the put back. Take off you Orange glasses and call a spade a spade.

I am as big a Thunder supporter as their is but it was pretty clear to me we got beat by a better, more experienced team. I loved this team and will miss seeing them play. Raymond was a treat to watch over 5 years and Wiele is a warrior. In the end, our best wasn't good enough.

Fair enough, I didn't mean it to sound like sour grapes, but I can understand why it came off that way. I just felt like Wheaton was capable of more and wished they would have been able to show it on the big stage. Wash U. will certainly be a deserving National Champion if they are able to win out, I was just disappointed to see such a special Wheaton team come up short of their ultimate goal.

[WahooThunder]

By the way Q, being a displaced Wheaton fan, I also really appreciated the quality of your broadcast last night. Keep up the good work.

[Mugsy]

It couldn't have been a better set up for Wheaton's best team ever and they scored 52 points and didn't get it done.

Not to minch words, but I'm sure there are some who might argue the team that actual won a national championship was the best Wheaton team ever.  

I understand the point you were making... other than being in the bracket of Death, Wheaton did have an ideal setup with home court advantage through to the Final Four, but they just didn't make the plays when they needed too.  WashU did.

[hopefan]

and TQ, you don't even mention last year's final four hero Ross Kelley, who hardly saw floor time last night, but likely could have played 20 minutes if either Wallis or Thompson had gotten in foul trouble......

Actually, I think Wash U needs a solid recruiting class THIS year - the Sophomore class this season seems weak - only Knepper has played - and none of the Freshmen backcourt has seen real time - so in reality after next season, it's Toth Richter a relatively soft Knepper - that's it.  No athletic Cam Smith types to guard and rebound, no point, no depth  -  unless Mark is keeping some of his bench under wraps.......

[Ralph Turner]

As for the Bracket of Death, the benefit for Wheaton was to catch those teams on your home court!

Better to catch your toughest foes at home...

[Above The Rim]

I'd like to have seen Wiele get the ball more down low, especially after Nading picked up 2 quick fouls in the first minute.  However, the Wash U defense rotated so well that it both kept Wiele from an easy kick out and kept him from going to the hole without a foul opportunity. 

For a pre-season All American, Andy Wiele was, lets say, inconsistent this season. While he would have a great game one night, he would virtually disappear the next. There were several times this season where it appeared he was laboring to make it up and down the floor. Then, at the win or go home point of the season, he fails to step up and provide the inside half of what should be one of the most dynamic inside-outside duos in the country. Even an All-American caliber player isn't always going to do everything well, but he should be able to either find a way to get to the hole and finish, or kick it out for the open shot if he is doubled.

[Above The Rim]

Granted Raymond shot 7 of the 15 in the game, but I think he deserved a few more calls going to the hole. 

Are we playing the entitlement card here CCIW?
In MHO, Kent Raymond may very well just be the best DIII player in the country, but the one "negative" aspect of his game has been his constant harping at the officials over virtually every call that has gone against him throughout the course of his fabulous career. It was exceptionally rare when you didn't see Kent complain to the refs after being called for a foul. He did this even in cases when the call against him was so obviously correct that even Coach Harris wouldn't argue the call. Often times, he would even complain about calls that went against teammates. Sure, there were calls that went against him that were ticky-tacky or maybe weren't even fouls at all, but those were more than offset by the offensive fouls he got away with despite constantly leading with his forearm when dribbling/driving the ball.

Other CCIW posters? Agree/Disagree?

CCIW---Is it possible that Wash U "deserved" some calls they didn't get, or was it just Raymond and Wheaton who got shafted by the refs?

[augiefan]

First of all I want to concur that this was a terrific basketball game. It demonstrated all that is good about college basketball. Two well coached teams playing there hearts out for love of the game.

I too think the difference in the game was the play of Sean Wallis and the defense by Cam Smith on Raymond. To say a player that scored 22 oints had an off night sounds ludicrous, unless you realize that player is Kent Raymond. Smith denied Kent the opportunity to drain his usual number of 3s and forced hium to drive for 2 point shots. That probably was the difference maker. It's true that Wiele had a rough night, but this was a game decided by the guards. Wallis and Thompson were just a touch better than Raymond and Panner last night. The skinny Wallis does not look like a college b'baller, but he was superb last night

I also think the refs decided to let the two teams play. There was lots of contact, pushing. hooking and holding inside, all night, but for the most part the refs were consistent. The second foul call on Tyler Nading less than 2 minutes into the game was a bad call, and sending him to the  bench that early in the game more than offset any non calls on Raymond. It was certainly better than the first game where the officiating crew must have called 40 fouls leading to a dull slow paced second half.

St. Thomas looked very good, but Puget Sound was so over matched it was hard to get aread on wjhether thasy are better than Wheaton and/or Wash U. We'll know after tonight. Wash U. has had close calls in all 3 games so far, so it should be a nail bitter. cLearly, wash U. had to put out a much greater effort to win, and also playing the later game is not to their benefit. Fatigue could be a factor as the Tommies had pretty much a cake walk after the 1st half.