MBB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

[CCIWchamps]

The D3hoops.com Player of the Year is M.I.T. guard Jimmy Bartolatta. 

(Full teams will be posted later.)

Wow, that makes 0 sense.  Fine, an overstatement.  That makes 35% sense.

I don't expect a Wheaton person to understand the selection, but I feel 100% confident in it. They were the only two candidates, but in the end, I thought Bartolotta was simply a better player.

Based on stats?  Opponents?  Strength of schedule?  Lack of teammates?  Expectations heading into the season for the team?  Minutes played?  Personal preference because he blogged for the website?  What?

I'm glad you're 100% confident in it and all, but I'd appreciate hearing reasons why Raymond wouldn't put up 37 points a game playing in a 6 man rotation in the NEWMAC conference.  A bunch of teams barely playing .500 ball.  Bartolotta's a baller, no doubt, but his opponents are so weak that I'd expect a bigger output of numbers if that's all you're basing it on.  Both can single handedly carry teams.  Kent just does it against better teams.   

[Pat Coleman]

LOL -- Bartolotta wrote about three blog posts for the site two years ago. If blogging prowess were one of the factors, Sean Wallis would've been player of the year, hands-down.

Simply put, Bartolotta did a couple more things than Raymond did -- he had more than twice as many rebounds and shot a better percentage from three-point range while shooting them more often. He had more than twice as many steals per game.

Like I said, I don't expect you to understand because of your bias toward Raymond, but as a neutral observer I valued that complete stat line.

[CCIWchamps]

LOL -- Bartolotta wrote about three blog posts for the site two years ago. If blogging prowess were one of the factors, Sean Wallis would've been player of the year, hands-down.

Simply put, Bartolotta did a couple more things than Raymond did -- he had more than twice as many rebounds and shot a better percentage from three-point range while shooting them more often. He had more than twice as many steals per game.

Like I said, I don't expect you to understand because of your bias toward Raymond, but as a neutral observer I valued that complete stat line.

Go check my adjusted stat line in the All American thread then. 
They split on FG%, but other than that Kent takes 5 stat lines and Bartolotta takes 4.
Don't forget that KR beats him in FT% and assists.  KR plays with better teammates, including a rebound machine named Andy Wiele, so the extra 2.5/game doesn't really sway me if that is what decides player of the year.  And that Bartolotta got 60 more looks at 3's than Kent is more of a testament to the defenses playing against them.  The CCIW doesn't leave Kent open for 3, which means he hits his 37% over people.  If defenses did leave him open, which last happened when Kent was a freshman, his % may be closer to 51.6% as it was in 2004-2005.
In either case, how 2.5 RB's and 6.4% on 3's makes your decision whereas strength of schedule was not even mentioned, I don't know.  Ask some other CCIW backers if they'd like to have seen JB subbed for KR all season and I think you'll find your answer.

[Pat Coleman]

That's your interpretation.

Knowing that these guys would be the two best candidates for player of the year, I acquired game video on Bartolotta, and I saw Raymond play twice at full health this season in person. I am surely not the only person to see both play, but I suspect that I am the only person taking part in this conversation so far that has done so.

Listen, Bartolotta does more than score -- as I mentioned, he has more steals, blocks nearly twice as many shots, and honestly, yes, with the extra defensive pressure thrown at him he works his tail off to get open and it succeeds.

[CCIWchamps]

That's your interpretation.

Knowing that these guys would be the two best candidates for player of the year, I acquired game video on Bartolotta, and I saw Raymond play twice at full health this season in person. I am surely not the only person to see both play, but I suspect that I am the only person taking part in this conversation so far that has done so.

Listen, Bartolotta does more than score -- as I mentioned, he has more steals, blocks nearly twice as many shots, and honestly, yes, with the extra defensive pressure thrown at him he works his tail off to get open and it succeeds.

"That's your interpretation?"  That's your dismissal of my argument? 
How is 2x as many shots a good stat? 
Was Raymond not double teamed in the games you saw him play?
If you're all about the complete stat line, why aren't you mentioning turnovers and fouls?
Or for that matter, assists?
It's like you're basing it on the smallest stat you can find, which sounds like 0.6 blocks/game to me.
And seriously, how can you be voting and not making any mention of competition?

Who gets to vote for this?  People with websites that have seen 6 total games?

[Pat Coleman]

I do understand the CCIW is a very good conference. I think the CCIW has fared very well in the D3hoops.com All-American team over the 12 years we've been doing it.

However, Jimmy Bartolotta was the best player in Division III basketball this season, in our opinion.

[Mugsy]

I posted this over on the All-American board as well, but I felt compelled to post here as well.  CCIWchamps... give it a rest.

I stated up front that all I'm going off of is stats.  I also accept links to any online MIT game tapes or Bartolotta highlight clips.  I assume someone at MIT knows how to run a DVCam? 

CCIWchamps, as a fellow Wheaton alum your arrogance is nauseating. 

I understand your desire to standup for Raymond.  He was an outstanding basketball player and worthy of POY consideration.  However... no matter how hard you argue, nothing will change.  Instead of fanning the flame and insulting anyone who disagrees with you, why don't you appreciate the 4 years Kent Raymond and the Wheaton team have given us.

If you haven't seen much of Bartolotta in person how can you possibly have enough context to say he is not as worthy as Raymond.  Stats?  Stats aren't everything and conjecture is lame.  Those who have a greater context and understanding of all D3 have decided Bartolotta is the POY.  I would have loved to have seen Raymond win this honor, just as I would have loved to see Wheaton get to Salem (particularly with how WashU went on to win it all).  But in either case, it didn't happen.

Time to move on and stop reflecting poorly on the institution you are affiliated with.

[CCIWchamps]

I posted this over on the All-American board as well, but I felt compelled to post here as well.  CCIWchamps... give it a rest.

I stated up front that all I'm going off of is stats.  I also accept links to any online MIT game tapes or Bartolotta highlight clips.  I assume someone at MIT knows how to run a DVCam? 

CCIWchamps, as a fellow Wheaton alum your arrogance is nauseating. 

I understand your desire to standup for Raymond.  He was an outstanding basketball player and worthy of POY consideration.  However... no matter how hard you argue, nothing will change.  Instead of fanning the flame and insulting anyone who disagrees with you, why don't you appreciate the 4 years Kent Raymond and the Wheaton team have given us.

If you haven't seen much of Bartolotta in person how can you possibly have enough context to say he is not as worthy as Raymond.  Stats?  Stats aren't everything and conjecture is lame.  Those who have a greater context and understanding of all D3 have decided Bartolotta is the POY.  I would have loved to have seen Raymond win this honor, just as I would have loved to see Wheaton get to Salem (particularly with how WashU went on to win it all).  But in either case, it didn't happen.

Time to move on and stop reflecting poorly on the institution you are affiliated with.

I appreciate your straight forward approach to the situation, but please don't mistake my frustration for arrogance.  Nothing will change.  Agreed.  I'm just waiting to hear an argument better than I've heard so far. 
"Stats?  Stats aren't everything and conjecture is lame."  Mr. Coleman said he's looking at overall stats.  His words.  As a basketball fan I'd assume stats would be taken in some sort of context.
"Those who have a greater context and understanding of all D3 have decided Bartolotta is the POY."  Well according to the information several posts above, that "greater context" consists of 2 Wheaton games and a handful of MIT DVD's.  That doesn't really do it for me either.
"Time to move on and stop reflecting poorly on the institution you are affiliated with."  Believe me, I post on here for myself and not for the institution I'm affiliated with.  All posts should be read as such.

And lastly, I mean no disrespect to Mr. Coleman b/c he disagrees with me.  Given that he's already voted and must defend the authenticity of the outcome, he's in an even more difficult position to accept a difference of opinion than I am.  So I in no way attempt to persuade him to change his mind.  Granted at the end of the day it doesn't matter, and Kent Raymond probably has thought about it 1/100th of the amount that I have.  I just get confused when things don't make sense... like an honorable mention All-American 2008 being a front runner for Player of the Year 2009 against a player that has been Regional Player of the Year for 3 years straight.  The more I find out, the more confusing it gets.

[Mugsy]

CCIWchamps,

You are making great arguments, many of which I agree with, but when you post "I assume someone at MIT knows how to run a DVCam?", how is that supposed to be taken?  How are a majority of people going to interpret that? 

When you post something that appears to take a shot at those from a very, very well respected educational institution, how are we supposed to interpret the "tone" of the message?  I tell you that many will view it as arrogance, not frustration.  You were making strong arguments, just choose you words more carefully.

[Pat Coleman]

I just get confused when things don't make sense... like an honorable mention All-American 2008 being a front runner for Player of the Year 2009 against a player that has been Regional Player of the Year for 3 years straight.  The more I find out, the more confusing it gets.

Why would 2008 performance have bearing on the 2009 Player of the Year?

[CCIWchamps]

CCIWchamps,

You are making great arguments, many of which I agree with, but when you post "I assume someone at MIT knows how to run a DVCam?", how is that supposed to be taken?  How are a majority of people going to interpret that? 

When you post something that appears to take a shot at those from a very, very well respected educational institution, how are we supposed to interpret the "tone" of the message?  I tell you that many will view it as arrogance, not frustration.  You were making strong arguments, just choose you words more carefully.

Appreciated.

[CCIWchamps]

I just get confused when things don't make sense... like an honorable mention All-American 2008 being a front runner for Player of the Year 2009 against a player that has been Regional Player of the Year for 3 years straight.  The more I find out, the more confusing it gets.

Why would 2008 performance have bearing on the 2009 Player of the Year?

You said heading into the season that you suspected Bartolotta and Raymond to be in a 2 man race.  Their 2008 status should have no bearing on the end of the year 2009 status.  I was just wondering why you'd pick an Honorable Mention 2008 All American to be a front runner heading into the season 2009.

[Above The Rim]

CCIW---

Being as though you attend or attended school in Illinois, I can understand your being an authority on a player from a school in Mass. My initial question would be how may times have you seen Bartolotta play?

You also need to learn, as no less an authority, and no less of a Wheaton fan than Mugsy suggests, that there is a huge difference between blind loyalty and objective evaluation. However, the fact of the matter is that a review of the history of your posts reveals that you believe that Wheaton is always the best, never fouls, is always fouled when they miss a shot, and that they have the greatest overall talent in the land. You also thoroughly discount the greatness of any players not wearing a Wheaton uniform, such as Jimmy Bartolotta and Brent Ruch, and you attempt to discredit the description and/or analysis of a game by some pretty seasoned and knowledgeable observers/posters if their opinion doesn't favor Wheaton for any reason. You do this even if that observer/poster personally witnessed the game he is analyzing. Yet, you attempt to discredit a player you probably have never personally seen play. Talk about talking out both sides of your mouth. Of course, we should expect that from someone who defended Wheaton students rude behavior in standing and blocking the view of the elderly fans from Wheaton's first round opponent despite the older fans request that they be seated.

And yes, I agree Kent Raymond is a 1st team All-American. As a CCIW fan, I'll even take him over Bartolotta. But, I realize my preference for Kent doesn't automatically make him the best player--despite whatever stats you might wish to quote.  

[CCIWchamps]

CCIW---

Being as though you attend or attended school in Illinois, I can understand your being an authority on a player from a school in Mass. My initial question would be how may times have you seen Bartolotta play?

You also need to learn, as no less an authority, and no less of a Wheaton fan than Mugsy suggests, that there is a huge difference between blind loyalty and objective evaluation. However, the fact of the matter is that a review of the history of your posts reveals that you believe that Wheaton is always the best, never fouls, is always fouled when they miss a shot, and that they have the greatest overall talent in the land. You also thoroughly discount the greatness of any players not wearing a Wheaton uniform, such as Jimmy Bartolotta and Brent Ruch, and you attempt to discredit the description and/or analysis of a game by some pretty seasoned and knowledgeable observers/posters if their opinion doesn't favor Wheaton for any reason. You do this even if that observer/poster personally witnessed the game he is analyzing. Yet, you attempt to discredit a player you probably have never personally seen play. Talk about talking out both sides of your mouth. Of course, we should expect that from someone who defended Wheaton students rude behavior in standing and blocking the view of the elderly fans from Wheaton's first round opponent despite the older fans request that they be seated.

And yes, I agree Kent Raymond is a 1st team All-American. As a CCIW fan, I'll even take him over Bartolotta. But, I realize my preference for Kent doesn't automatically make him the best player--despite whatever stats you might wish to quote.  

Not as appreciated.

[CCIWchamps]

CCIW---

Being as though you attend or attended school in Illinois, I can understand your being an authority on a player from a school in Mass. My initial question would be how may times have you seen Bartolotta play?

You also need to learn, as no less an authority, and no less of a Wheaton fan than Mugsy suggests, that there is a huge difference between blind loyalty and objective evaluation. However, the fact of the matter is that a review of the history of your posts reveals that you believe that Wheaton is always the best, never fouls, is always fouled when they miss a shot, and that they have the greatest overall talent in the land. You also thoroughly discount the greatness of any players not wearing a Wheaton uniform, such as Jimmy Bartolotta and Brent Ruch, and you attempt to discredit the description and/or analysis of a game by some pretty seasoned and knowledgeable observers/posters if their opinion doesn't favor Wheaton for any reason. You do this even if that observer/poster personally witnessed the game he is analyzing. Yet, you attempt to discredit a player you probably have never personally seen play. Talk about talking out both sides of your mouth. Of course, we should expect that from someone who defended Wheaton students rude behavior in standing and blocking the view of the elderly fans from Wheaton's first round opponent despite the older fans request that they be seated.

And yes, I agree Kent Raymond is a 1st team All-American. As a CCIW fan, I'll even take him over Bartolotta. But, I realize my preference for Kent doesn't automatically make him the best player--despite whatever stats you might wish to quote.  

If you want the entire history of my argument, it's over in the All-American topic thread.  Of course, you just stated that you've researched every post I've ever written, so then you'd already know the answer to your question.  ZERO.  Zero is how many times I've seen JB and all I have to go off are stats.  But again, I posted that to begin with, so either you are late to the discussion or you are not doing the homework that you say you are when you wrote your post just now.

Ironic that your message was about talking out of both sides of your mouth. 

TO get back on topic, I remember when we last spoke you were making an argument about Raymond's career based on the 15 times you had seen him, forgetting that his career spanned twice that amount in this 1 season alone.  I promise you I make more informed arguments when I post.  As for most of your statements about "Wheaton never fouling, etc" I don't believe I've made those.  I've posted about a travesty of officiating known as Wheaton vs. NCC at NCC, but in general I will not say that Wheaton is exempt from fouling.  As for "Wheaton is the best in the land," if the CCIW is the land, then I suppose I'm right, no?  "Thoroughly discounting players like Bartolotta" is also untrue as he has put up very good numbers this year.  As I've posted (and therefore you've read, right?) I take issue with the voting and not with the players.  Lastly, the bit about "we should expect that from someone who defended Wheaton students rude behavior in standing and blocking the view of the elderly fans from Wheaton's first round opponent despite the older fans request that they be seated," I don't recall taking part in that discussion other than to ask if someone who posted a reply was doing so in jest or in seriousness.

So, in other words, I recognize your wanting to hold me accountable and attempting to dismantle my arguments all in one fell swoop, but I feel that most of your logic is off base at best.  That, and your post does nothing to add to the discussion about the POY.  I'd love to see video to ease my mind.  Tell me what your objective view would be based on.  Stats no doubt.  And I am simply implying that JB played 20% more than KR in games, and that the difference between the two players is 2.5 rebounds, an assist, and half a block per game for JB.  In favor of KR is an .8 points, 1 assist, and a higher Assist:T/O ratio.  That is as objective as I can be. 

Layer 2 would involve discussion of Strength of Schedule.  But on that I'm preaching to the choir, so I'll rest my case.