MBB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

[dansand]

Not knowing as much about NAIA basketball as football, I'd like to hear what some others think. I know the past few years some top D-3 football teams have beaten some top NAIA teams pretty badly. Whitewater and Lacrosse come to mind beating Azusa Pacific and one other I can't think of off the top of my head several years in a row.

Courtesy of Rhodes Scholar (the first five years) and Hopefan (this year), here's how D3 teams have done against the various levels of competition since the start of the 2004-05 season:

D1............. 7-256, .027
D2............74-321, .187
NAIA 1..... 91-161, .361
NAIA 2.... 551-512, .518
NCCAA.... 292-81,  .783
USCAA.... 350-96,  .785
Other...... 237-40,  .856

Here's the thread that tracks those results:

http://www.d3boards.com/index.php?topic=1167.1260

[WUPHF]

I will give you Wash U, straight up...despite the location.

I agree with that.  I think the fact that it is a home game makes it easier to call, but I think WUSTL takes it on the road as well.

I do think that the competition among the divisions is very interesting.  Especially early in the season when there is not as many other things to discuss.  Thanks for posting the statistics.

Obviously we have to keep in mind the context of it all: the quality of the teams are going to vary greatly within each division.  I watched Division II UM-St. Louis win a close one over Truman State (my alma mater) last night.  I would bet a lot of money that WUSTL or St. Thomas or Illinois Weslyan (among others) would have mopped the floor with either team.

UMSL and Truman were smart enough not to schedule that game.  And, in my opinion, for this reason, the statistics are just a little lopsided against Division III.

[John Gleich]

I will give you Wash U, straight up...despite the location.

I agree with that.  I think the fact that it is a home game makes it easier to call, but I think WUSTL takes it on the road as well.

I do think that the competition among the divisions is very interesting.  Especially early in the season when there is not as many other things to discuss.  Thanks for posting the statistics.

Obviously we have to keep in mind the context of it all: the quality of the teams are going to vary greatly within each division.  I watched Division II UM-St. Louis win a close one over Truman State (my alma mater) last night.  I would bet a lot of money that WUSTL or St. Thomas or Illinois Weslyan (among others) would have mopped the floor with either team.

UMSL and Truman were smart enough not to schedule that game.  And, in my opinion, for this reason, the statistics are just a little lopsided against Division III.

Yeah, the sample size in inter-divisional games is pretty small, given the relative size of each of the different divisions.  There's a large disparity between the top and bottom teams inside each division... and so if the top teams from D-II beat the bottom teams from D-III, then it's skewed.  It has lots more to do with geography and other similar factors than anything else (though that might be cooked into it... the teams might be recruiting rivals, or one team might draw from a better talent pool because of a lack of D-I schools, etc).

I think that a lot of teams do take a look, though, and figure that it's a lose-lose situation for them (speaking from the D-II school's POV).  If they win, they were supposed to win... (and even in victory, questions might be asked in terms of how easy the victory was, because, after all, it's just D-III...  ) and if they lose, then they feel that they lose face.

[wheels81]

Congratulations to Tim McCrary and Breanna Bohlen for their selection to D3hoops team of the week.  First time I think Wheaton was represented on both men's and women's team in the same week.  WTG Thunder.
If not first maybe youngest?  

[izzy stradlin]

With all due respect to the above posters, I have a hard time hearing NAIA-DI programs considered to be "powers" or "strong programs."   To me, the programs mentioned are simply weak scholarship-basketball programs.  

We can keep creating divisions and subdivisions for schools to join until everyone can consider themselves a strong program by achieving a lofty ranking, but in IMO there are only strong scholarship programs (the top of the  ACC, SEC, Big Ten etc) and strong non-scholarship programs (the top of the cciw, wiac, uaa, ivy league etc).

Obviously there are differences on average in resources, total scholarship dollars, enrollment etc between NCAA D1 and other scholarship basketball, but the disparities are also there between fellow NCAA D1 schools.  

The Chicago States of the world could be considered good programs if people would just stop comparing them to the darn Big Ten or even MVC schools.....   all they need to do is group themselves in the right "scholarship" division.

I'm not following your point.  You do realize that the best NAIA I teams are generally better than the best NCAA III teams, right?  And that, just as the case with any division, there are certain NAIA programs that are traditionally strong within the NAIA world (like Concordia of California, Azusa Pacific, Georgetown of Kentucky, Mountain State, etc)...just as the UW-Stevens Point's, Hope's, Wooster's, Amherst's, Wash U's, etc are in D3.  Locally, Robert Morris has become an NAIA powerhouse, Olivet Nazarene is a terrific program overall, and St. Xavier is also strong most years.

I don't think there is a CCIW team this season as good as this year's Olivet Nazarene team.  And in terms of overall small college basketball "programs", there are probably only 3-4 CCIW programs that have been on par with ONU over the course of the last decade or so.

NAIA II has some great "programs" too, like Bethel (IN), Cornerstone, etc.

My point is that I group athletic scholarship-awarding NAIA programs with NCAA D1 (and D2), in which case they are simply bad when compared to the top programs.         

In other words, I don't believe that NAIA d1 deserves to have its own "world" with power programs.  Along the same lines, it also wouldn't be right to make another new subdivion of NCAA D1 where small schools like Elon and Wofford now get to be considered power programs because they are the best of their new division.  These are all just scholarship awarding institutions.  NAIA D1 is just code for bad scholarship basketball.               

The fact that ONU could beat IWU or Wheaton doesn't make them good, the same way it wouldn't make NIU good.  They award athletic scholarhips and they should win.   I don't think it is ever fair to compare CCIW "programs" to others like ONU who award scholarships just because they are a small college.  The major distinction to me is scholarships not school size.  The best D3 program of the last few years, WashU, is a large research university.  What I like best about D3 is the academics first philosophy.  I understand this may not be true for everyone.

I feel the same way about FCS in college football.   While some would consider SIU a powerhouse in the FCS world,  IMO, SIU is a mediocre-to-poor scholarship awarding football program.  (However I could maybe see a little more of any argument making distintions between these divisions in football due the importance of numbers in football and the difference in total scholarship numbers - something like 85 for FBS vs 65 to divide for FCS.)

In the same way, I have no problem considering the non-scholly NAIA teams to be strong programs in comparison to D3 and other non-scholarship institutions.   

I do think its fun for the d3's to knock  off the scholarship institutions every now and then.

[WUPHF]

Happy Thanksgiving everyone!

@IS: I think your point would make more sense if the NAIA had formed last year, but the organization has been around for 70 years or more.

The coach I knew at Saint Xaiver was convinced that without the NAIA, it would be a lot harder to explain the need for varsity athletics to the key institutional decision makers (e.g. Presidents, Boards of Trustees).  He had a very practical view.  I wish he was here to explain in more detail.

You keep referring to the scholarship divisions.  I do think it is very important to know that most NAIA schools (and Division II schools for that matter) have far less athletic scholarship money to give away, relative to Division I.  I used to work in financial aid and I worked at a two Division I mid-majors as well as the NAIA school.  Saint Xavier enjoyed a lot of support from the administration and yet the vast majority of the student-athletes paid the majority of their way.  Maybe they had a full-ride through other means (academic scholarship, federal and state aid), but most had very little athletic department money.  This, in my mind, is an important consideration.

[fcnews]

Izzy and WUH - Almost every school represented on here has roots in the NAIA. Even Wash U was once a scholarship program.

[Titan Q]

Respectfully, Izzy, I just don't think that is a rational assessment.  I mean, you're saying Olivet Nazarene should be compared athletically to University of Illinois, just because both give athletic scholarships.  We all know those two schools are not in the same "group" though...for a bunch of reasons.

I just look at it from a common sense standpoint.  Consider what would happen if Olivet Nazarene head coach Ralph Hodge tried to recruit current high school seniors Jereme Richmond (Waukegan) or Meyers Leonard (Robinson).  He'd get laughed at.  Heck, he'd get laughed at if he tried to recruit the kids mid-major Illinois State goes after.  Olivet Nazarene can't touch an Osiris Eldridge or Jeremy Robinson...not even close.

In general, Olivet Nazarene recruits the same level of kids the CCIW schools do.  The list of high school seniors that IWU and ONU have gone head-to-head on in the last 15 years is a long one.  Most recently, IWU won the battle for Sean Johnson (Washington, IL) and lost on Jordan Harks (Glenbard South).  A few years back, Scott Trost landed Zach Freeman (Normal Community), who ONU pursued aggressively.  Olivet has certain competitive advantages over a D3 like IWU when it comes to getting good players (scholarships being a biggie), but a school like IWU also has its own competitive advantages vs ONU.  IWU junior Doug Sexauer was recruited hard by St. Xavier, and had a scholarship to SXU...but he's at IWU.  At the small college level, scholarships are not the end all, be all.  

To me, when you "group" schools, you have to do so based on what caliber players each can reasonably attract.  Blackburn can't get a high school basketball player Illinois Wesleyan wants...can't even touch him.  Yet Blackburn and IWU are both non-scholarship schools.  On the flipside, IWU can get a kid Olivet Nazarene wants...even though IWU can't give scholarships and ONU can.  And as I mentioned above, ONU can't begin to pursue a kid Illinois State wants...even though both are in the "scholarship" world.      

One final thought...

Many Division III fans think that every kid at an NAIA school, like a St. Xavier or Olivet Nazarene, has a full scholarship.  The reality is that very few NAIA student-athletes are going to school for free.  Coaches divide out money, not scholarships...one kid might get a 75% scholarship, another 50%, another 25%, etc...very rarely does an NAIA student-athlete have a "full scholarship."  The final price tag differential between an NAIA and a D3 is not always huge...sometimes yes, always no.  

The nephew of a good friend of mine was making a college decision between St. Xavier and UW-Whitewater 3 years ago.  The kid was a stud high school offensive lineman who got some D1 looks, but no offers.  The parents were shocked to learn that the final cost at D3 Whitewater was significantly cheaper than NAIA St. Xavier...even though he was given an athletic scholarship at SXU.  He ended up choosing Whitewater.  It would surprise many here to know that this type of thing actually happens on occasion when an SXU or ONU competes for a kid with a few of the CCIW schools.  (Not as often as when going up against a WIAC, but it does happen.)  

Bottom line, I think there are a lot of misconceptions out there about NAIA athletic scholarships.

[izzy stradlin]

Respectfully, Izzy, I just don't think that is a rational assessment.  I mean, you're saying Olivet Nazarene should be compared athletically to University of Illinois, just because both give athletic scholarships.  We all know those two schools are not in the same "group" though...for a bunch of reasons.

There are around 350 division I basketball institutions.  This includes a very wide variety of schools.  The Midwest doesn't have as many because of the more NAIA/D3 flavor here, but there are a lots private small colleges in that 350 with very small athletic budgets/endowments comparable to wealthier NAIAs. 

Should Holy Cross, High Point, Centenary, Citadel etc. be compared to the University of Illinois??   Jereme Richmond would probably laugh if Centenary came to recruit him.  A bunch of these private low-level D1s could not change much budget wise, switch to NAIA, and magically become good programs.

I don't care who schools recruit against. Wheaton women's soccer has beat out many mid-majors and one or two high- major D1s over that last 10+ years.  The fact that ONU can offer athletic scholarship money (full, some, whatever..), go against and sometimes lose recruits to IWU reflects even more poorly on ONU and NAIA.
IWU/Uchicago/Wheaton etc are much wealthier schools than ONU could easily join NAIA and offer a few basketball scholarships but they philosophically choose against this.  That is why I respect and follow CCIW/D3.  The only reason an ONU-type can compete with IWU for any recruits is that they can offer money for athletic merit. 

IWU is a better school, offers what I feel is a better basketball experience, and I will speculate would dominate ONU pretty much every year if they went NAIA and starting giving scholarships.   

[AndOne]

Very true.
AND, the same could be said for most of the CCIW schools as well as several other D3s in the Midwest region.

[izzy stradlin]

Very true.
AND, the same could be said for most of the CCIW schools as well as several other D3s in the Midwest region.

I agree.

[Titan Q]

Five CCIW games today, and 3 are intriguing to me...

Augustana (3-0) @ Anderson (3-0), 7:00pm - Anderson (15-12/7-9 last year) is fresh of a 2-point win @ UW-Platteville.  We still don't know what that Platteville win really means at this point, but in general, winning at Platteville is usually impressive.  On the flip side, Anderson only beat Kalamazoo by 2...IWU's opponent tomorrow, Manchester, beat Kalamazoo by 35.  So while we don't know a lot about Anderson, this should be Augustana's best opponent to date, and their first road game.

Elmhurst (1-1) @ Chapman (2-0), 7:00pm - Chapman, in Orange, CA, is a D3 independent that seems to be in the Pool B discussion on Selection Sunday each year.  Last year the Panthers were 24-3, but did not get a Pool B due to a horrendous strength of schedule.  This year, Chapman already has a very impressive win - vs #14 Cal Lutheran.  In my mind, Elmhurst is a significant underdog on the road in this game...but I'll be the first to admit, I don't know anything about Chapman.

Illinois College (3-0) at North Central (2-1), 7:30pm - the Blue Boys have been pretty impressive so far.  They defeated DI SIU-Edwardsville in an exhibition, then opened the real season win a 21-point win over SLIAC favorite Westminster, a 14-point win over Simpson, and a 4-point win over MSOE (which beat North Park).  Illinois College could emerge as a MWC contender.

The other two games today are...

Carthage (2-1) @ Concordia (WI) (2-1)

Spalding (1-2) @ North Park (1-3)

[robberki]

Don't forget to check out the web broadcast of the North Park contest tonight against Spalding. Hit the link for tonights game:
http://www.audiosportsonline.net/NorthPark/2009Basketball.htm

You can also check out the archived broadcasts of any of our old games.

[Gregory Sager]

Should Holy Cross, High Point, Centenary, Citadel etc. be compared to the University of Illinois??   Jereme Richmond would probably laugh if Centenary came to recruit him.

That's probably not the best example you could've used, Izzy, as Centenary declared this past summer that it is moving from D1 to D3.

[augiefan]

Augie beat Anderson tonight 79-72 thanks primarily to a great effort by Matt Pelton. Pelton lead Augie with 26 points and 6 boards, with Rorer adding 14 points and Nelson 13. The game was virtually equal statistically, as Augie out boarded Anderson only 34 to 32. FTs and TOs were also virtually identical. A nice win on the road over Augie's first credible opponent.