MBB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

[Titan Q]

B.C. has the best hands in CCIW for a post also.  Shouldn't have to monitor his playing time by this point in his career.  He's had 1 1/2 years to get in shape.  He should be playing 20 minutes a game, which would make the difference in a lot to games.

Ryan has improved remarkably in the last 14 months or so (since practiced started his freshman year), but for now, he's still just a 3-4 minutes at a time/roughly 15 minutes per game guy.  He was a legitimate 295 pounds last year at this time...and Ron Rose couldn't begin to think about playing him in a varsity game.  He is now 270 and actually moving well, relatively speaking. 

Connolly is averaging 12.4 minutes per game so far.  He is scoring 10.0 points per game and 3.4 rebounds in that time on the floor...really nice numbers for a backup post player.   If he continues to make strides, he will be a factor CCIW games this year, and has a chance to be even more valuable as a junior.

He really does have nice, soft hands and he knows what he's doing around the basket.  With him, it's all about improving mobility and conditioning.  I assume in high school, they were just happy with him being big. 

[Titan Q]

Athletic in terms of (Lou Henson's definition), being able to beat your gut off the dribble and get to the rim.  Some players can do it by a quick first step, others do it with ball handing, others do it with a combination of both.  But also when you get to the rim you have to be able to make a decision.   Thompson...at times.  Panner...no.   Wallis maybe not able to get to the rim but he is a "cow bell guy", and very poised down the stretch.  Raymond...no.   Steve D. can beat his guy off the dribble and he uses both ball handling and quickness.  Travis R. has the ability and skill to beat most guys offt the dribble.  Chicago has great perimeter defense.  Also some of the best post defense comes from the perimeter defensive pressure.   I don't know if I answered u Titan, I might have rambled a little:)

I know what you're saying, but there is a huge difference between the style of play in Division I and Division III.  There is a long list of teams that have won CCIW championships, and D3 national championships, without "athletic" guards (by your definition).  For example, IWU's 1997 national championship team (13-1 in the CCIW) – I'm sure you'd define both Korey Coon and Nathan Hubbard (IWU's starting backcourt) as "unathletic."

Being able to beat your guy off the dribble and get to the rim is critical in Division I.  It is a luxury if you have those kind of perimeter players in Division III, but not a requirement.

As far as athleticism on the floor in general, Augustana was incredibly athetlic (by your definition) last year...more than any CCIW team I can think of in a long time.  Yet, Wheaton won the title...and Elmhurst finished 2nd (Augie was 3rd).

At the Final Four last year, the most athletic team was Richard Stockton (out of the NJAC)....but they couldn't play with the overall "unathletic" Wash U Bears.

[Titan Q]

But we can all agree on one thing...

Need more cowbell!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Mie9hhQTUM

[Gregory Sager]

Athletic in terms of (Lou Henson's definition), being able to beat your gut off the dribble and get to the rim.  Some players can do it by a quick first step, others do it with ball handing, others do it with a combination of both.  But also when you get to the rim you have to be able to make a decision.   Thompson...at times.  Panner...no.   Wallis maybe not able to get to the rim but he is a "cow bell guy", and very poised down the stretch.  Raymond...no.   Steve D. can beat his guy off the dribble and he uses both ball handling and quickness.  Travis R. has the ability and skill to beat most guys offt the dribble.  Chicago has great perimeter defense.  Also some of the best post defense comes from the perimeter defensive pressure.   I don't know if I answered u Titan, I might have rambled a little:)

I know what you're saying, but there is a huge difference between the style of play in Division I and Division III.  There is a long list of teams that have won CCIW championships, and D3 national championships, without "athletic" guards (by your definition).  For example, IWU's 1997 national championship team (13-1 in the CCIW) – I'm sure you'd define both Korey Coon and Nathan Hubbard (IWU's starting backcourt) as "unathletic."

Being able to beat your guy off the dribble and get to the rim is critical in Division I.  It is a luxury if you have those kind of perimeter players in Division III, but not a requirement.

As far as athleticism on the floor in general, Augustana was incredibly athetlic (by your definition) last year...more than any CCIW team I can think of in a long time.  Yet, Wheaton won the title...and Elmhurst finished 2nd (Augie was 3rd).

... and by those lights Elmhurst was one of the least "athletic" teams in the league last season. By FAN3's definition, NPU and Millikin have regularly had two of the most "athletic" teams in the league over the past decade. NPU always has a boatload of guys who can beat their man off the dribble and get to the basket. But guess which two teams have been stuck at the bottom of the league throughout most of this decade?

I'm on Bob's side in this one. I'd rather have five moderately-talented guys who may not have outstanding penetrating ability but who function together like the five fingers on a hand than five guys with quickness and hops who can each shake 'n' bake their way to the basket but who each play as though the other four guys are wearing different-colored uniforms. On this level, the former type of team beats the latter type of team much more often than not.

[Titan Q]

I'd rather have five moderately-talented guys who may not have outstanding penetrating ability but who function together like the five fingers on a hand than five guys with quickness and hops who can each shake 'n' bake their way to the basket but who each play as though the other four guys are wearing different-colored uniforms. On this level, the former type of team beats the latter type of team much more often than not.

Here is some video from IWU vs Virginia Wesleyan and Amherst at the Final Four in 2006.  This is pretty typical of how good Division III teams move the ball and score points...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F2EANANcrj8

[CCIWFAN3]

I agree with Greg and Bob.  That's why I also added to my statement earlier...once you get to the rim you have to be able to make a decision....the right one!

Raymond was not athletic but he read screens and used them better than anyone I've seen.  and if you gave him an inch...he'd make you pay.  But he wasn't a guy that could beat his man off the dribble.  Same with Korey. 

Again...Travis can do that and make the right decison.

N.P. and Millikin just needs that right combination of players to go with the athleticism.  Gotta have smart on the floor with the athletcism.

So in a nutshell if we combine quick, good ball skills and smart it will take a team far.   

Steve D. can "shake n bake". 

[CCIWFAN3]

I agree Greg that having all AndOne OC players is not usually successful.  But, (u knew I was gonna throw in a but), it's also not usually successful if all the players are mechanical robots. How many times do you hear coaches say; "our players just didn't make plays"!  When athletes are always so mechanical it's difficult to make plays, especially since every coach knows every other coaches plays! Sometimes you have to allow your players to just make plays themselves, at DIII, DII, DI, NAIA or JUCO.  Just be a basketball player, not 2, or 3, or 4, etc.  I once heard Coach Bridges say; "Trust your players", who I think is one of the greatest coaches at all levels!  Rarely did you see Coach Bridges call a timeout during transition when his team was behind...that is if a PLAYER had the ball, and not a 6'10" post leading the break:)  He trusted his players.  I will always remember that quote.     

[Gregory Sager]

Here is some video from IWU vs Virginia Wesleyan and Amherst at the Final Four in 2006.  This is pretty typical of how good Division III teams move the ball and score points...

I don't need to see that. (I realize that you may have posted that for FAN3's benefit, though.) I saw plenty of teams over the years that fit that description that wore royal blue and gold uniforms. Not lately, of course, but I did see plenty of them that fit that description.

I agree with Greg and Bob.  That's why I also added to my statement earlier...once you get to the rim you have to be able to make a decision....the right one!

That decision-making happens long before the driver gets to the rim, FAN3. I pointed that out about Sean Johnson yesterday; he pulled up almost every time he drove against Chicago and either shot a midrange J or passed the ball, and in several instances he made the wrong choice.

Raymond was not athletic but he read screens and used them better than anyone I've seen.  and if you gave him an inch...he'd make you pay.  But he wasn't a guy that could beat his man off the dribble.  Same with Korey.

See, again you and I disagree upon what constitutes athleticism. I thought Raymond was very athletic. He was as strong as a bull, for one thing, and that strength allowed him to maintain body control when he was in the air so that he could get off his shot with accuracy after contact. That's in stark contrast to a contemporary of his with whom I'm very familiar, NPU's Jay Alexander. Jay was very good off the dribble, since he had the ball-handling skills, the first-step quickness, and the long arms that allowed him to excel at it, but because he was unable to develop any muscular bulk -- in spite of a lot of hours spent in the weight room -- he could be knocked askew when he went up in the air, altering his shot. I can't tell you how many times I saw him attempt a layup while his body was at a 45-degree angle because he'd been hit in midair. Kent Raymond was always perfectly upright whenever he released a layup, regardless of whether or not he'd drawn contact.

I wonder how many Wheaton games you've seen over the past five years, because I saw Raymond take defenders off the dribble plenty of times. Everything he did with the ball in his hands, dribble penetration included, was an outgrowth of his sky-high basketball IQ. If he saw you leaning the wrong way, if he knew that you had certain tendencies as a defender, if he noticed that you'd moved up on him because he'd hit his last trey attempt -- he'd use it and go by you. There were plenty of CCIW guards who were quicker than him, but the only one who ever got to the rim, or to the FT line, as much as him was Steve D. over the past two seasons.

In terms of his attributes as a driver -- his high basketball IQ, his physical strength, and his relentlessness -- he resembled another player from this decade who wasn't super-quick but who got to the rim (and thus to the free-throw line) constantly, Augie's Drew Carstens.

N.P. and Millikin just needs that right combination of players to go with the athleticism.  Gotta have smart on the floor with the athletcism.

NPU had that in the past. Most of it consists of finding players who have either been comprehensively trained in the nuances of halfcourt basketball offenses via summer camps, strong middle-school, high school freshman, and sophomore programs, etc. -- and that tends to be the high socioeconomic kids from the outer-ring suburbs that NPU's basketball program has never been able to compete for well in the recruiting wars, even during the glory days -- or kids from less-advantaged backgrounds who are coachable enough to catch up via remedial teaching in their first year or so as a player. Or coaches' kids -- you can never have enough players who learn the game from their fathers from the moment they're born.

The other aspect is to have a coaching staff that excels at basketball pedagogy. Teach the game well to talented players who may not be as schooled in the game prior to their arrival on campus as are their counterparts at rival schools, and you can win a lot of games. That was a lot of the secret to North Park's success -- everyone to whom I've ever spoken about his coaching cites Bosko Djurickovic's skills as a master teacher as the key to his success. I once spoke to a coach who had been part of a D1 staff who said to me, "In terms of teaching, Bosko runs the best practice I've ever seen, on any level."

I agree Greg that having all AndOne OC players is not usually successful.  But, (u knew I was gonna throw in a but), it's also not usually successful if all the players are mechanical robots.

Oh, I agree with that, too. We're speaking in generalities, of course. But improvisation should arise out of structure, not the other way around. A good sound halfcourt offense run by players who know what they're doing, who understand spacing and cutting and screening and tempo and reversing and shot-clock management should come first.

When athletes are always so mechanical it's difficult to make plays, especially since every coach knows every other coaches plays!

There's really no secrets in this league. Every coach knows every other team's plays. There have been plenty of CCIW games in which I've heard the opposing bench call out the offense's play in order to alert the defense. But knowing what play the other team is running doesn't mean that you're going to be able to stop it if: a) the other team runs it to perfection; or b) the other team's players have either the physical superiority or the necessary skill set, or both, to impose their will upon yours.

[AndOne]

I agree with Greg and Bob.  That's why I also added to my statement earlier...once you get to the rim you have to be able to make a decision....the right one!

CCIWFAN3---

If you don't make the right decision, either when you begin your drive, or when you leave your feet, you'll never get to the rim. And worse yet, you'll rarely get to the line!

[AndOne]

I agree Greg that having all AndOne OC players is not usually successful.  But, (u knew I was gonna throw in a but), it's also not usually successful if all the players are mechanical robots. How many times do you hear coaches say; "our players just didn't make plays"!  When athletes are always so mechanical it's difficult to make plays, especially since every coach knows every other coaches plays! Sometimes you have to allow your players to just make plays themselves, at DIII, DII, DI, NAIA or JUCO.  Just be a basketball player, not 2, or 3, or 4, etc.  I once heard Coach Bridges say; "Trust your players", who I think is one of the greatest coaches at all levels!  Rarely did you see Coach Bridges call a timeout during transition when his team was behind...that is if a PLAYER had the ball, and not a 6'10" post leading the break:)  He trusted his players.  I will always remember that quote.     

How the hell did I get involved in this?        
Leave me outta it!     

[Gregory Sager]

CCIW overall: 32-15 (.681)

...	vs. D2	1-0
...	vs. NAIA-2	2-0
...	vs. D3	29-15 (.614)
...	... ... ...	vs. non-region D3	1-0
...	... ... ...	vs. in-region indies	0-1
...	... ... ...	vs. ASC	1-1
...	... ... ...	vs. HCAC	4-1
...	... ... ...	vs. IIAC	2-0
...	... ... ...	vs. MIAA	4-3
...	... ... ...	vs. MIAC	1-0
...	... ... ...	vs. MWC	4-2
...	... ... ...	vs. NAthC	5-2
...	... ... ...	vs. NCAC	1-0
...	... ... ...	vs. SCIAC	1-0
...	... ... ...	vs. SLIAC	3-2
...	... ... ...	vs. UAA	1-2
...	... ... ...	vs. WIAC	1-1

[iwuhoops2]

That decision-making happens long before the driver gets to the rim, FAN3. I pointed that out about Sean Johnson yesterday; he pulled up almost every time he drove against Chicago and either shot a midrange J or passed the ball, and in several instances he made the wrong choice.


I think  that single game against Chicago wasn't reflective of Sean's ability. His stat line this year thusfar suggests otherwise. He seems to be streaky and when he is on, he is really on. When he gets 2 fouls early, he gets timid and may make bad decisions trying to avoid a charge? I am not sure.

IWU just looked lackluster from the start of that game. When Zimmer goes 2 for 12 on very open looks which are usually automatic for him... you know something weird is happening.

I didn't think Chicago was that great of a team, but they seemed to shoot well against the titans and keep the few moments of spark that IWU had to a minimum. So they played well in that respect.

At the end of the game, there were about 3 minutes or so of timeouts, fouls, free throws, the standard coaching techniques that suggest a team is looking for the way to pull out a miracle comeback.

All the players were trying until the end and Coach Rose was actively looking for the strategy, my only question is...

Where was that scheming in the first 6 minutes of the game???

I still think that was a flukey game that doesn't allow you to really judge how good this team is or isnt.

[Gregory Sager]

Once again North Park has the only game on tap in the CCIW tomorrow night, so unless you're really interested in watching Monday Night Football, tune in at 7:30 to NPU's live webcast to watch the Vikings take on East-West University. Rob and I will again be on the call.

I'm not entirely sure what to make of EWU. The Phantoms are always a big mystery every year; the program isn't part of any national organization (NCAA, NAIA, NCCAA, USCAA), it's the only varsity sport the school offers, the players tend to come and go regardless of what the roster says, the school website gives no info other than schedule and roster, etc. They don't even play on campus, which is really no surprise when you consider that their campus consists of a couple of buildings on prime Loop real estate. Instead, they play their games at Brooks High School on the Far South Side at 115th and State. I have no idea if their players are on scholarship or not.

I'm glad that EWU has a basketball program, though. The Phantoms will take on anybody; their schedule's a Whitman's Sampler of various NAIA programs, salted with a couple of Bible colleges, plus NPU. If your schedule's missing a game due to a late cancellation or an inability to settle upon an agreed date late in the scheduling process, as was the case for NPU this season and Carthage two seasons ago, EWU is always available as a last-minute fill-in. And while they're not incredibly organized about it, the Phantoms usually have some good players; two years ago they beat Carthage by three in a rematch after having lost to the Red Men by 23 two weeks previous. The Phantoms are currently 7-6; they played in St. Xavier's tourney this weekend and beat Trinity Christian by ten before being blown out by the host Cougars by 27. Earlier this year they had a 100-86 win over the Trinity International team that NPU barely eked out a win over in OT four days ago.

Don't know much about the players themselves, aside from the fact that one of the better ones, PG Dennis Murphy, played in a handful of games for Western Illinois a couple of years ago.

it should be interesting. 

[markerickson]

I'd rather have a well-coached team with players that have legit D3 talent over a bevy of "athletic" players who lack fundamental court awareness.

If E-W scored triple digits against TIU, I wonder how many points E-W will score against NP (shudder).  I'll be hunkered down in a hotel room tonite due to work obligations so maybe I'll watch some of the webcast.

[Dennis_Prikkel]

I'd rather have a well-coached team with players that have legit D3 talent over a bevy of "athletic" players who lack fundamental court awareness.

If E-W scored triple digits against TIU, I wonder how many points E-W will score against NP (shudder).  I'll be hunkered down in a hotel room tonite due to work obligations so maybe I'll watch some of the webcast.

Mark - i think alphabetically sorting my sock drawer is a more worthwhile activity than driving 25 miles to see this game - actually, after a wonderfully busy musical weekend I'm going to the health club for a nice warm swim and spa.

dgp