MBB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

[Titan Q]

An article from today's Galesburg Register-Mail on Ron Rose's recruitment of Victor Davis...

http://www.galesburg.com/newsnow/x1859641374/Silver-Streaks-Notebook-Relentless-Rose-lands-Victor-Davis


GALESBURG —
The way it seemed, Ron Rose was looking to buy real estate inside John Thiel Gymnasium.

"I lost track of the number of games I saw there," the Illinois Wesleyan men's basketball coach said.

Home game after home game, Rose was seated somewhere near the front rows on the Galesburg side of Thiel, hardly trying to hide in the crowd. He was there for one purpose — to make Galesburg standout Victor Davis a Titan.

"The first time I saw him," said Rose, who came across Davis in the 2008-09 season, "I thought, 'Holy smokes!' "



Coach Rose makes it clear at the end of the piece that he expects Davis to contribute at the varsity level next season.  Victor should be very much in the competition for the starting 4 job.

Well, it seems young Mr. Davis can do just about everything but walk on water.
I expect that will be his next act. 

John Koschnitzky--Sit right there on the bench next to Coach Rose--You may get a few minutes.
Dan Schouten--Your seat is down there at the far end of the bench. Keep it warm.
Kevin Reed--What school was your 2nd choice??

So now we have at least four good 4s . Only 1 problem---so few minutes/so many men.   
How much time is left for the other guys when Davis rates a "holy smokes" from Rose while still in high school?

If only these darn kids would start making their decisions on where to attend college based solely on where it's easiest to get playing time on the basketball team - as you have long advocated, AndOne -  the world would be a much better place.  The nerve of these guys.

[Mr. Ypsi]

We've joked for years about the Titan 5-guard offense.  Maybe Coach Rose is going with the 5-forward offense?

[titanfan]

An article from today's Galesburg Register-Mail on Ron Rose's recruitment of Victor Davis...

http://www.galesburg.com/newsnow/x1859641374/Silver-Streaks-Notebook-Relentless-Rose-lands-Victor-Davis


GALESBURG —
The way it seemed, Ron Rose was looking to buy real estate inside John Thiel Gymnasium.

"I lost track of the number of games I saw there," the Illinois Wesleyan men's basketball coach said.

Home game after home game, Rose was seated somewhere near the front rows on the Galesburg side of Thiel, hardly trying to hide in the crowd. He was there for one purpose — to make Galesburg standout Victor Davis a Titan.

"The first time I saw him," said Rose, who came across Davis in the 2008-09 season, "I thought, 'Holy smokes!' "



Coach Rose makes it clear at the end of the piece that he expects Davis to contribute at the varsity level next season.  Victor should be very much in the competition for the starting 4 job.

Well, it seems young Mr. Davis can do just about everything but walk on water.
I expect that will be his next act. 

John Koschnitzky--Sit right there on the bench next to Coach Rose--You may get a few minutes.
Dan Schouten--Your seat is down there at the far end of the bench. Keep it warm.
Kevin Reed--What school was your 2nd choice??

So now we have at least four good 4s . Only 1 problem---so few minutes/so many men.   
How much time is left for the other guys when Davis rates a "holy smokes" from Rose while still in high school?

If only these darn kids would start making their decisions on where to attend college based solely on where it's easiest to get playing time on the basketball team - as you have long advocated, AndOne -  the world would be a much better place.  The nerve of these guys.

Agree with Q.  I'm really tired of kids making decisions about their futures for reasons other than the amount of guaranteed playing time they'll get on the basketball team.  I just want to shake them and ask them what the heck they could be thinking.   

[iwumichigander]

An article from today's Galesburg Register-Mail on Ron Rose's recruitment of Victor Davis...

http://www.galesburg.com/newsnow/x1859641374/Silver-Streaks-Notebook-Relentless-Rose-lands-Victor-Davis


GALESBURG —
The way it seemed, Ron Rose was looking to buy real estate inside John Thiel Gymnasium.

"I lost track of the number of games I saw there," the Illinois Wesleyan men's basketball coach said.

Home game after home game, Rose was seated somewhere near the front rows on the Galesburg side of Thiel, hardly trying to hide in the crowd. He was there for one purpose — to make Galesburg standout Victor Davis a Titan.

"The first time I saw him," said Rose, who came across Davis in the 2008-09 season, "I thought, 'Holy smokes!' "



Coach Rose makes it clear at the end of the piece that he expects Davis to contribute at the varsity level next season.  Victor should be very much in the competition for the starting 4 job.

Well, it seems young Mr. Davis can do just about everything but walk on water.
I expect that will be his next act. 

John Koschnitzky--Sit right there on the bench next to Coach Rose--You may get a few minutes.
Dan Schouten--Your seat is down there at the far end of the bench. Keep it warm.
Kevin Reed--What school was your 2nd choice??

So now we have at least four good 4s . Only 1 problem---so few minutes/so many men.   
How much time is left for the other guys when Davis rates a "holy smokes" from Rose while still in high school?

If only these darn kids would start making their decisions on where to attend college based solely on where it's easiest to get playing time on the basketball team - as you have long advocated, AndOne -  the world would be a much better place.  The nerve of these guys.

Agree with Q.  I'm really tired of kids making decisions about their futures for reasons other than the amount of guaranteed playing time they'll get on the basketball team.  I just want to shake them and ask them what the heck they could be thinking.   

Agree - lots of playing time with free time in March is every basketball player's dream

[AndOne]

Titan Q, Mr. Ypsi, Titanfan, IWUMichigander--

Gentlemen,

Contrary to whatever impression any or all of you may have, my position is, and always has been, that the primary reason for selecting a college is indeed for academic reasons rather than anything having to do with basketball or any other sport.
The point I am trying to make is that it IS possible to attend a quality school where you can earn a good education AND have a better opportunity to get playing time than you would have by choosing a school that is already well stocked with players.
There is no doubt Wesleyan is a great school. And, in saying that, I'm not just blowing smoke up your collective butts as I have personally told kids that if they choose Wesleyan they'll have a great academic experience. There are kids on the team right now that will confirm that. 
However, Wesleyan is not Nirvana. I know its probably a hard concept for you to understand, but there are other quality schools both in the CCIW and the Midwest region. Given that, I believe a valid question is, "Why not go to a school where you will get a great education AND honestly have a better opportunity to earn playing time than choose a school where the roster is already stacked and realistically your chance for playing time, especially in your 1st year or 2, is slim or none?"

Bob, you recently listed likely starters for each CCIW team next year with Koschnitzky being the presumptive starter at the 4 spot for Wesleyan. You subsequently made a statement something along the lines of "these guys can play," and included the names of Schouten and Reed at the 4 position. Now you tout Mr. Davis' great talent and say Coach Rose himself expects Davis to contribute at the varsity level next season. You close by saying "victor should be very much in the competition for the starting 4 job." You would have us believe all of them are going to be on the court at the same time. Minimally, you imply all are capable of seeing playing time. But, realistically, you know the odds are that one will see the vast majority of PT at the 4 and ONE other almost all the remaining time. The other 2 will
most likely spend all, or close to all of there time keeping the bench warm without any real chance of earning playing time over the course of the season unless its in a blowout type game where the outcome will have long been decided before they ever set foot on the floor.
Sometimes it just makes a heck of a lot more sense for a kid to consider the fact that he can get great education and have a much greater chance to play if he attends a school other than one that was very successful, but has their entire starting lineup returning, several other returning players who saw action coming back, and a top recruit that the head coach has already annointed as a star before he even sets foot on campus.

Do you want to go to a great college and watch basketball, or do you want to go to a great college and PLAY basketball? 

Lastly, I realize all of you may well disagree, but I thank you for respecting my opposing opinion. A stance you confirmed by NOT doing what some other "gentlemen" have been doing quite regularly lately. 

[Titan Q]

Contrary to whatever impression any or all of you may have, my position is, and always has been, that the primary reason for selecting a college is indeed for academic reasons rather than anything having to do with basketball or any other sport.
The point I am trying to make is that it IS possible to attend a quality school where you can earn a good education AND have a better opportunity to get playing time than you would have by choosing a school that is already well stocked with players.

Mark,  I think we all understand your point...you have been making the same one, very passionately and very consistently, for years here.  I'd also say that virtually everyone here agrees with you.  I know I do.  The statement above is really hard to argue with.

But here's the deal.  At some point you are going to have to turn this around and ask yourself the following question...

Why do so many kids decide to attend schools where there are other good players at the same position they play on the basketball team?

Again, I think we all agree with your main point -- "that it IS possible to attend a quality school where you can earn a good education AND have a better opportunity to get playing time than you would have by choosing a school that is already well stocked with players."  But why do so many kids not factor in who is ahead of them on the roster more heavily in making their decision?  

Whether you want to see it or not, you are eventually going to come face-to-face with the following reality, Mark -- for the average kid looking at Division III schools (not heading to the NBA in 2, 3, or 4 years, mind you, but rather "going pro in something other than sports" after college), the availability of varsity playing time consideration is really not all that high on the list.  Is it critical for some kids?  Absolutely.  For some, it may be the deciding factor.  But for most, it falls way, way below the academic fit consideration, and others (like location, price, facilities, social fit, etc, etc, etc, etc).  

You continually infer that these kids (who decide to go to, say, IWU or Augustana, when there are already older, talented players on the roster at their same position) are basically making a mistake.  So if Bradley Ghere, for example, decides he wants to go to Illinois Wesleyan and compete for playing time on the basketball team someday instead of going to Illinois College (where the staff told him he was their #1 recruit and would play right away), that somehow Bradley Ghere is just in the wrong.  But Mark, that decision is up to the kid and the family...not you.  None of these kids are getting tricked into going anywhere.  They all have the internet and can access any team's current roster, and can research the quality of the players that will be ahead of them.  

Again, at some point here, you're going to have to sit back and ask yourself why this keeps happening, and maybe reconsider your thoughts around the importance of an easy path to playing time for the average kid looking at D3 schools.

There is no doubt Wesleyan is a great school. And, in saying that, I'm not just blowing smoke up your collective butts as I have personally told kids that if they choose Wesleyan they'll have a great academic experience. There are kids on the team right now that will confirm that.  

However, Wesleyan is not Nirvana. I know its probably a hard concept for you to understand, but there are other quality schools both in the CCIW and the Midwest region.

Come on...that's just not a fair statement.  You are really suggesting that the IWU fans here think that Illinois Wesleyan is the only good academic school in the CCIW and Midwest region?  Someone has posted that here, or inferred it?  Really?

Bob, you recently listed likely starters for each CCIW team next year with Koschnitzky being the presumptive starter at the 4 spot for Wesleyan. You subsequently made a statement something along the lines of "these guys can play," and included the names of Schouten and Reed at the 4 position. Now you tout Mr. Davis' great talent and say Coach Rose himself expects Davis to contribute at the varsity level next season. You close by saying "victor should be very much in the competition for the starting 4 job." You would have us believe all of them are going to be on the court at the same time. Minimally, you imply all are capable of seeing playing time.

Again, not even remotely close to being a fair statement.  Projecting John Koschnitzky to start at the 4 a few weeks ago (where he started IWU's last 5 games there this year), and reminding a fellow IWU poster that the Titans have other good players on the roster outside of the junior class is a long, long way from implying that every power forward on the IWU roster will see playing time in 2010-11.  I did not say that, and did not imply that.

I follow CCIW basketball fairly closely.  I generally think I have the concept of playing time down fairly well.  I know that IWU can play 2, maybe 3 at the most, PF's next year.  I never suggested otherwise.  

Sometimes it just makes a heck of a lot more sense for a kid to consider the fact that he can get great education and have a much greater chance to play if he attends a school other than one that was very successful, but has their entire starting lineup returning, several other returning players who saw action coming back, and a top recruit that the head coach has already annointed as a star before he even sets foot on campus.

But again, this is for the kid to decide...not you.

[Titan Q]

AndOne, one final point that I think is important...

Don't assume every kid on every CCIW roster was recruited to that school.  Some kids recruited themselves to the school, despite having great opportunities to go somewhere else and play much sooner, and despite being told by the coaching staff something like, "you know that getting on the floor here will be difficult, right?"

There are a lot of kids on rosters of good D3 teams who knew when they made their decision that they might never play on the varsity.  That's their call.

[John Gleich]

There are a lot of kids on rosters of good D3 teams who knew when they made their decision that they might never play on the varsity.  That's their call.

And I'm fairly certain that many good players would rather be a part of a good program and have to earn their spot, perhaps not for 2 years or so, than be THE guy for four years in a program that regularly gets used as a floor mop by said "good program."  They might end up scoring 1000 more points at the mediocre basketball school than the good one but they might also lose 50 more games in their college careers too.  Yes, there's a chance that they might have a breakout year and make the NCAA tournament... but they also might like to play with other players of their caliber (or better) and have a shot at making the tournament every year, or even winning the thing.

The guys who don't get much P.T. don't get talked about much... but they really are the core of the team.  Those guys who are J.V. players or who only see time in blowouts are the ones who are competing with the starters and the guys off the bench in practice every single day.  They're really earning their keep and they're making the team better.  A lot of teams that are good year after year have lots of players riding the pine who could have a great impact right now on lots of other programs... but they would rather be part of something special.  Yes, they want to be THE guy eventually, but like everything else in life, they know that they've gotta work at it, put in their time and effort.

In many respects, going to the team and playing right now is the credit card/fast food problem of instant gratification that's wrong with our culture.  Why wait and put in the effort if I can get gratification right now, even if it ultimately has repercussions in the future (in the basketball sense, not having the success that otherwise could have been had with the good program).

[cardinalpride]

Point, why is it a problem if a kid wants to attend a school such as NCC where earning immediate playing time is a more realistic possibility than at some other school. I don't see anything wrong with kids wanting to take on the challenge of helping build a good program or reestablishing tradition at a once upon a time good program that's suffered some down years! I don't see the problem in that at all!

[markerickson]

Isaiah Dahlman earn all-state awards as a prep at Braham HS (MN).  He is presently a senior at Michigan State; he rarely plays.  The Mpls Star recently included an article on Dahlman and his younger brother, who I believe plays at Wofford.  (The youngest Dahlman led her team to the state finals this year where they got spanked big time by my alma mater.)  The oldest Dahlman would not admit in the article that he wished he had transferred to see more PT. 

OSU got mugged the entire second half against Bruce Pearl's squad, but there were few calls.  It was unfortunate to see the refs make so many dubious calls in the MSU v Butler game.  And, like OSU v TN, the Big Ten clearly got fouled on the last shot of the game only to witness the ref swallowing a whistle. 

[The Roop]

And this pertains to DIII because...................................................

[markerickson]

Because there's been a very recent thread (>2+pgs in length?) about kids choosing successful programs yet PT is significantly compromised.

Also, refs make highly questionable calls, which has been discussed regularly on this board.

[Greek Tragedy]

We've joked for years about the Titan 5-guard offense.  Maybe Coach Rose is going with the 5-forward offense?

That can work!  During Point's run to back to back National Championships, they played 5 forwards often at one time  and basically started 4 forwards.

Jason Kalsow 6'7" 229 lbs
Nick Bennett 6'5" 194
Jon Krull 6'4" 230
Eric Maus 6'9" 212

Kyle Grusczynski played a lot and he was listed at 6'6" 203.

Kalsow played point-forward a lot and all the big men (aside from Maus) could handle the ball.

[John Gleich]

Point, why is it a problem if a kid wants to attend a school such as NCC where earning immediate playing time is a more realistic possibility than at some other school. I don't see anything wrong with kids wanting to take on the challenge of helping build a good program or reestablishing tradition at a once upon a time good program that's suffered some down years! I don't see the problem in that at all!

I absolutely agree with you that kids do this, and more power to them if they're able to build the program up and leave a legacy greater than themselves.  More power to them even if they're NOT able to do this.  They're student athletes who are putting in just as much time and effort into things as anyone else.

But that side of the discussion isn't what's being argued by AndOne.  He is saying that he doesn't know why kids would go to an established  program where there, seemingly, are lots of kids in their position ahead of them, where they would need to wait for playing time.

If someone makes the decision to go to the "other" school that's ok.  Perhaps I was a little more harsh than intended with the credit card/fast food comparison... but I'm not 100% convinced that.  If every other variable is equal and you have an opportunity to be part of a successful program or an unsuccessful one, you'd chose the unsuccessful one because you'd want to play right away versus one where you'd have to earn your spot.  Again, part of the reason that you might be able to play right away is that the team doesn't have any other weapons... so you'll get 20 shots a night and score 25... and lose 85-60 night after night.  Sure you got to play right away, but you're not working from the same starting point.  Yes, it's possible that the program could grow and develop around you... but lots and lots of things have to go exactly right for that to happen.  I think there's more of a margin of error if you are a part of a program that is already successful and you have to earn your spot.  For one, you will have a constant reminder that you have to work hard.  If you're the go-to guy in your first year, is there the same motivation to get better?  I don't think so.... I think people will work harder for something they don't have than to essentially maintain what they do have.

[tyler durden]

From the Daily Chronicle ...

Genoa-Kingston senior boys basketball player Scott Suchy will play his college basketball at Division III Carthage College in Kenosha, Wis. He committed to the school last weekend.

Carthage finished its season with a 24-6 record and lost in a sectional championship game to Illinois Wesleyan, 77-72.

Suchy averaged 21.5 points and 6.2 rebounds a game for the Cogs and finished his career with 1,834 points. The G-K senior was named third-team all-state in Class 2A by the Illinois Basketball Coaches Association. He was the Daily Chronicle's Boys Basketball Player of the Year in 2007-08.