MBB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

[Gregory Sager]

If you are a good high school big man and want to play sooner rather than later in a highly rated DIII conference at a great school, North Central is where you will have a much better opportunity to earn PT at an early point in your college career than at Augie who already has established bigs on the screen for next year.

I'm fine with that, and maybe I'm reading too much into it from a semantic standpoint, but it seems more than a little arrogant to suggest a kid made a bad decision because he decides to go somewhere that's not your school. As disappointed as I am when Augie loses a recruit, I have a tough time imagining the circumstances that would make me think that I know better than the young man where he should be going to school.

You make a good point, Dan. Although I don't agree with Mark, I think that his argument has its merits. But one cannot help but wonder if he'd be making the argument if the shoe was on the other foot and it was North Central that had the loaded returning rotation and little or no room for a freshman to make an immediate impact. Loyalties are loyalties, and we're all affected by them in this venue. Perhaps someone else would be making the same argument on behalf of the school he supports if North Central was the loaded-returnees team.

Augie was replacing four frontcourt players last year, so there was no reason to think that Kunz or Scarlata or Norton or Dexter wouldn't be able to compete for playing time. As it turned out a string of injuries allowed three of them to get pretty significant minutes.

One other note: The argument affects Augustana a little bit differently, since Grey Giovanine spreads his varsity minutes around more than any other coach in the league.

Injuries are part of the equation also (it was actually two separate ankle injuries for Dexter last year). Augie has lost a double figure scorer for the rest of the year early in three of the last four seasons (Rorer, Delp & Voiles). Where would they be if they hadn't recruited some depth.

... which goes back to what I said the other day about how CCIW coaches all seem to want to have about twenty-five or so players participating in fall practices. Attrition is inevitable, and you safeguard against it by bringing as many good players into your program as you possibly can within reason. But you're looking at this from the coach's point of view. Mark's point is to look at it from the player's point of view, which is a different thing altogether.

AndOne's evaluation of "good basketball decision" vs "poor basketball decision" is extremely narrow.  It basically comes down to whether or not you have a great chance to play varsity as a freshman.  Accordingly, the following kids made poor decisions...

* Keelan Amelianovich (1 year JV)
* Chris Simich (2 years JV)
* Brent Niebrugge (2 years JV)
* John Camardella (1 year JV)

The problem is that all 4 won CCIW championships, and all 4 went to Salem.  And knowing each, I can promise you none would tell you he made a "poor basketball decision."

A lot of fine players have come through this league and had excellent careers without playing a lot immediately. Did Keelan Amelianovich or Rick Harrigan make bad decisions "from a basketball standpoint" because they didn't play immediately?

Two words, guys: Michael Harper

* Played for the North Park JV as a freshman
* All-American, CCIW MOP, and marquee superstar of national championship North Park teams as a sophomore, junior, and senior

Just sayin'.

I feel like I need a shower now after agreeing with the Illinois Wesleyan folks.  

LOL!

[Gregory Sager]

Dan, I don't want to put words in Mark's mouth we all know he doesn't need me to but I believe he was using NCC, IWU, and Augie as examples. I didn't take it as arrogance. I also believe you all make good points. However, some kids do make "bad decisions" or shall I say "not the best decision" when deciding schools. Augie had a Harrigan but they also had a Demoss. Iwu had a Carmadella but they also had a Tolliver. It would be naïve for us to think kids always make the best decisions when choosing an educational institution.

Examples?  These are direct quotes...

No doubt Brandon Kunz is getting a good education at Augie, but from a basketball standpoint, he is one of those kids who should have gone with his 2nd choice, where he could have also gotten a good education and played a lot more sooner rather than later.

Regarding Andrew Ziemnik...

I stand by my statement--A wonderful academic decision. A poor basketball decision. Especially in light of the fact he could have had it both ways!   

That is about as arrogant as it gets, isn't it?

I think it's a little presumptuous on Mark's part to say those things, and in the case of flatly declaring Ziemnik's choice a "poor basketball decision" he may be in error as well, but I wouldn't use the word "arrogant" to describe what he's said.

[dansand]

AndOne's evaluation of "good basketball decision" vs "poor basketball decision" is extremely narrow.  It basically comes down to whether or not you have a great chance to play varsity as a freshman.  Accordingly, the following kids made poor decisions...

* Keelan Amelianovich (1 year JV)
* Chris Simich (2 years JV)
* Brent Niebrugge (2 years JV)
* John Camardella (1 year JV)

The problem is that all 4 won CCIW championships, and all 4 went to Salem.  And knowing each, I can promise you none would tell you he made a "poor basketball decision."

A lot of fine players have come through this league and had excellent careers without playing a lot immediately. Did Keelan Amelianovich or Rick Harrigan make bad decisions "from a basketball standpoint" because they didn't play immediately?

Two words, guys: Michael Harper

* Played for the North Park JV as a freshman
* All-American, CCIW MOP, and marquee superstar of national championship North Park teams as a sophomore, junior, and senior

Just sayin'.

Oh, believe me Greg, I thought of Harper too. But I wasn't sure if he was really a good example since I think he was about 6-6, 150 as freshman and maybe not physically ready to play.

[cardinalpride]

Dan, I don't want to put words in Mark's mouth we all know he doesn't need me to but I believe he was using NCC, IWU, and Augie as examples. I didn't take it as arrogance. I also believe you all make good points. However, some kids do make "bad decisions" or shall I say "not the best decision" when deciding schools. Augie had a Harrigan but they also had a Demoss. Iwu had a Carmadella but they also had a Tolliver. It would be naïve for us to think kids always make the best decisions when choosing an educational institution.

Examples?  These are direct quotes...

No doubt Brandon Kunz is getting a good education at Augie, but from a basketball standpoint, he is one of those kids who should have gone with his 2nd choice, where he could have also gotten a good education and played a lot more sooner rather than later.

Regarding Andrew Ziemnik...

I stand by my statement--A wonderful academic decision. A poor basketball decision. Especially in light of the fact he could have had it both ways!    

That is about as arrogant as it gets, isn't it?

TQ,
My question is would Mark be taking the same position on Kunz and Ziemnik if they had/were attending Carthage and/or Millikin?  If so then you're right!  His comments would be considered "arrogant" in my opinion.  If not, then I see it as being examples of his position.  

Let me ask>>>

Mark, If Kunz and Ziemnik would have attended the aforementioned schools, would their decisions still be considered "poor" in your opinion?

[Titan Q]

TQ,
My question is would Mark be taking the same position on Kunz and Ziemnik if they had/were attending Carthage and/or Millikin?  If so then you're right!  His comments would be considered "arrogant" in my opinion.  If not, then I see it as being examples of his position.  

Let me ask>>>

Mark, If Kunz and Ziemnik would have attended the aforementioned schools, would their decisions still be considered "poor" in your opinion?

For me it's not that complicated.  Anyone who thinks they are wise enough to publicly call a high school kid's college choice a "poor basketball decision", without knowing a) how the 4 years are actually going to play out, and b) what the kid is looking for out his collegiate basketball experience, is pretty darn arrogant in my book.

[cardinalpride]

Greg, north park had michael harper and they also had jon chimino! . Lol

[Gregory Sager]

Oh, believe me Greg, I thought of Harper too. But I wasn't sure if he was really a good example since I think he was about 6-6, 150 as freshman and maybe not physically ready to play.

Michael Harper's arrival at NPC was before my time, so I can't speak to that question. I do know that he saw a few varsity minutes as a freshman, as did Rick Harrigan and Keelan Amelianovich. Dennis Prikkel, or someone else from North Park who remembers Harps as a freshman (when he was actually about 6'4, from all the accounts I've ever heard), would have to address the question of whether or not Harps was ready to play varsity as an eighteen-year-old.

Greg, north park had michael harper and they also had jon chimino! . Lol

What the heck is that supposed to mean?

[cardinalpride]

Oh, believe me Greg, I thought of Harper too. But I wasn't sure if he was really a good example since I think he was about 6-6, 150 as freshman and maybe not physically ready to play.

Michael Harper's arrival at NPC was before my time, so I can't speak to that question. I do know that he saw a few varsity minutes as a freshman, as did Rick Harrigan and Keelan Amelianovich. Dennis Prikkel, or someone else from North Park who remembers Harps as a freshman (when he was actually about 6'4, from all the accounts I've ever heard), would have to address the question of whether or not Harps was ready to play varsity as an eighteen-year-old.

Greg, north park had michael harper and they also had jon chimino! . Lol

What the heck is that supposed to mean?

Well, as you know, I was engaged in a conversation with TQ and Dansand regarding the "good decision"/"bad decision"!  Well, TQ and Dansand started naming players from the past that didn't play right away but finished their careers on a high note with team and personal achievements-good decision.  Well, I named a couple of players from their past that didn't have the same experiences--"not the best decision". 

Greg, thats when you pulled Michael Harper from your school's past.  A player who may not have played right away but ended up having tremendous succes--good decision!  So, to have some fun with you, I threw out the name Jon Chimino--a player who may not have had the best experience at North Park--"not the best decision".

[Dennis_Prikkel]

Oh, believe me Greg, I thought of Harper too. But I wasn't sure if he was really a good example since I think he was about 6-6, 150 as freshman and maybe not physically ready to play.

Michael Harper's arrival at NPC was before my time, so I can't speak to that question. I do know that he saw a few varsity minutes as a freshman, as did Rick Harrigan and Keelan Amelianovich. Dennis Prikkel, or someone else from North Park who remembers Harps as a freshman (when he was actually about 6'4, from all the accounts I've ever heard), would have to address the question of whether or not Harps was ready to play varsity as an eighteen-year-old.

Greg, north park had michael harper and they also had jon chimino! . Lol

What the heck is that supposed to mean?

Dan McCarrell had Harper trying to gain weight for four years.  Harper's freshman year the Vikings had a veteran lineup - but freshman Modzel Greer was the player everyone thought would be a star and he started for four years.  Harper was almost solely jayvee until the final month of the season, when he saw very limited varsity action.  1977 team had Tom Walden, Al May, Roger Wood, Tom Florentine, Jim Tierney, Modzel Greer and Ernie Flores.  I may be missing someone.

Harper had a real problem with growing too fast his freshman year and his stamina could not keep up with his growth in height.  Late in the season Dan was going to start Harper against Elmhurst, but Harper fainted during the pre-game drills.

North Park's jayvee team Harper's freshman year was something like 15 and 2.  A really good freshman point guard, Glenn Turner, and Harper were the outstanding players on that team.  Turner did not comeback for his sophomore year.

[Gregory Sager]

Oh, believe me Greg, I thought of Harper too. But I wasn't sure if he was really a good example since I think he was about 6-6, 150 as freshman and maybe not physically ready to play.

Michael Harper's arrival at NPC was before my time, so I can't speak to that question. I do know that he saw a few varsity minutes as a freshman, as did Rick Harrigan and Keelan Amelianovich. Dennis Prikkel, or someone else from North Park who remembers Harps as a freshman (when he was actually about 6'4, from all the accounts I've ever heard), would have to address the question of whether or not Harps was ready to play varsity as an eighteen-year-old.

Greg, north park had michael harper and they also had jon chimino! . Lol

What the heck is that supposed to mean?

Well, as you know, I was engaged in a conversation with TQ and Dansand regarding the "good decision"/"bad decision"!  Well, TQ and Dansand started naming players from the past that didn't play right away but finished their careers on a high note with team and personal achievements-good decision.  Well, I named a couple of players from their past that didn't have the same experiences--"not the best decision". 

Greg, thats when you pulled Michael Harper from your school's past.  A player who may not have played right away but ended up having tremendous succes--good decision!  So, to have some fun with you, I threw out the name Jon Chimino--a player who may not have had the best experience at North Park--"not the best decision".

How do you know that Chimino did not have a good experience at North Park? Did he tell you that? I'm not saying that he did or didn't; I'm simply curious, because if you don't have direct knowledge of Chimino's feelings about his NPU experience you're making a pretty big assumption.

[Titan Q]

Oh, believe me Greg, I thought of Harper too. But I wasn't sure if he was really a good example since I think he was about 6-6, 150 as freshman and maybe not physically ready to play.

Michael Harper's arrival at NPC was before my time, so I can't speak to that question. I do know that he saw a few varsity minutes as a freshman, as did Rick Harrigan and Keelan Amelianovich. Dennis Prikkel, or someone else from North Park who remembers Harps as a freshman (when he was actually about 6'4, from all the accounts I've ever heard), would have to address the question of whether or not Harps was ready to play varsity as an eighteen-year-old.

Greg, north park had michael harper and they also had jon chimino! . Lol

What the heck is that supposed to mean?

Well, as you know, I was engaged in a conversation with TQ and Dansand regarding the "good decision"/"bad decision"!  Well, TQ and Dansand started naming players from the past that didn't play right away but finished their careers on a high note with team and personal achievements-good decision.  Well, I named a couple of players from their past that didn't have the same experiences--"not the best decision".  

Greg, thats when you pulled Michael Harper from your school's past.  A player who may not have played right away but ended up having tremendous succes--good decision!  So, to have some fun with you, I threw out the name Jon Chimino--a player who may not have had the best experience at North Park--"not the best decision".

How do you know that Chimino did not have a good experience at North Park? Did he tell you that? I'm not saying that he did or didn't; I'm simply curious, because if you don't have direct knowledge of Chimino's feelings about his NPU experience you're making a pretty big assumption.

And I'm not sure I get the Teddy Toliver (IWU) example.  Toliver played on that first Ron Rose team (2006-07) - a team beyond desperate for point-guards.  Rose started the year with Andrew Gilmore (much more of a 2 than a 1) at the point.  Freshman Sean Dwyer was lost for the season during game #2, and Gilmore suffered from severe knee problems all season.  There was plenty of PT to be had at the 1.  IWU had 1st Team All-American big guy Zach Freeman, and the Titans just needed some guys who could dribble up the floor and pass it to him.  Teddy Toliver had every opportunity to earn varsity time in practice and then in a few games, but he just was not ready to go when given those chances.  Rose ended up going with pure 2-guard Kevin Bryant at the 1, as well as walk-on Anthony Gunnell.  Another pure 2-guard, Jordan Morris, was tried there as well...J Mo did a lot of things well (shooting the 3, hustling, Scott Trost impression, etc), but he sure was not a point-guard.

Teddy Toliver didn't have a bad experience in his short career at IWU because he was blocked.  He just wasn't good enough to play when he did get his chance.  I'm not sure if that means it was a "bad decision" or not?

[Gregory Sager]

Jon Chimino wasn't blocked at NPU, either. He was brought in as a junior transfer from Moraine Valley CC for the 2007-08 season with the idea that he had a very good chance to start for the Vikings. North Park only had Jay Alexander, Nick Williams, defensive specialist Mike Ventura, and JV center Glenn Woodside (who then left the team early in the 2007-08 season) returning at the big-man spots, with freshman Phil Schniedermeier and fellow juco transfer Jorge Gonzalez the only other newbie big men. Chimino played in seventeen games for North Park, averaging about eight minutes per game. Seventeen varsity appearances is not the resume of a player who is being blocked by an excessive number of people ahead of him on the depth chart.

More importantly, he does not fit the topic of this discussion, which concerns players who don't get a chance to play varsity right away upon being brought into a program. Chimino played in the first six games of the season for North Park in 2007-08. Again, cardinalpride, how in the world does Chimino fit into this discussion?

As for why Chimino didn't play a bigger role on that 2007-08 NPU team, he simply didn't play very well as a Viking. He was defensively challenged, and the major asset that he brought with him to the Park, his shooting ability, fled once he donned a blue and gold uniform (he shot 31% from the field and 23% from long range in those seventeen games). To his credit, he worked hard and he even requested that he be allowed to play on the junior varsity in order to get consistent minutes and improve his game. I was very impressed by that, especially since he had transferred in as a junior and had played in the varsity's first six games. But he had plenty of immediate chances as a Viking to establish himself as either a varsity starter or as the sixth or seventh man. He wasn't blocked. He does not fit this discussion.

[cardinalpride]

Greg, I said he "may" not have had the best experience!  There maybe some assumption in my statement but that doesn't mean it isn't reasonable. Chimino didn't play for the park the following year after getting very few minutes in the previous one! I ASSUME since he transferred in as a junior he did have another year remaining. Didn't he? I also ASSUME when he made his decision to attend NP that he planned on using them both! Afterall, his former teammate from mvcc used both of his at NCC! Furthermore, just because chimino's talents weren't up to par for NP doesn't mean he wouldn't have been better off using them elsewhere! His case does fit the model of our conversation because he was indeed blocked! Anytime the coach feels there are other options on the team that can help win games moreso than you. My friend you have just been blocked. It doesn't matter if its because of a lack of talent, depth at a position, or overall depth of the team!

TQ, I never said Toliver had a "bad experience" at IWU! However, clearly it wasn't all "Roses" because he transferred the next year! I believed Toliver was blocked also for what appears to be similar reasons as Chimino!

[Titan Q]

TQ, I never said Toliver had a "bad experience" at IWU! However, clearly it wasn't all "Roses" because he transferred the next year! I believed Toliver was blocked also for what appears to be similar reasons as Chimino!

(He transfered over Christmas break during that same season I mentioned...2006-07, when IWU almost had to trot me out at the point.)

The old "blocked because you're not good enough" problem...I'd say that is a biggie. 

Maybe we could institute Little League rules in the CCIW - every kid gets to play a little bit, no matter how good or bad.  Then we'd have no poor decisions and no bad experiences.  And hopefully each team would go 7-7. 

Something to consider.

[iwu70]

Q, we could rename a team or two from Lake Wobegan where all the children are above average . . . then each team would finish 8-6.