MBB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

[Ralph Turner]

Q, we could rename a team or two from Lake Wobegan where all the children are above average . . . then each team would finish 8-6. 

I can see it now.

Wheaton	8-6
North Central	8-6
Millikin	8-6
IWU	8-6
Carthage	8-6
Elmhurst	8-6
Augustana	8-6
North Park	0-14

That is as close as I can get!        

[Dennis_Prikkel]

Q, we could rename a team or two from Lake Wobegan where all the children are above average . . . then each team would finish 8-6. 

I can see it now.

Wheaton	8-6
North Central	8-6
Millikin	8-6
IWU	8-6
Carthage	8-6
Elmhurst	8-6
Augustana	8-6
North Park	0-14

That is as close as I can get!        

-K

[Gregory Sager]

Q, we could rename a team or two from Lake Wobegan where all the children are above average . . . then each team would finish 8-6.  

I can see it now.

Wheaton	8-6
North Central	8-6
Millikin	8-6
IWU	8-6
Carthage	8-6
Elmhurst	8-6
Augustana	8-6
North Park	0-14

That is as close as I can get!      

Somebody with a Swedish-flag bumpersticker must've cut off Ralph in traffic last evening.

[Gregory Sager]

Greg, I said he "may" not have had the best experience!  There maybe some assumption in my statement but that doesn't mean it isn't reasonable. Chimino didn't play for the park the following year after getting very few minutes in the previous one!

"Very few minutes"? On what planet does seventeen varsity appearances at eight minutes per game translate as "very few minutes"?

I ASSUME since he transferred in as a junior he did have another year remaining. Didn't he?

Yes, he did.

I also ASSUME when he made his decision to attend NP that he planned on using them both!

He probably did think that he'd play for two seasons at NPU. But the fact that he did not doesn't necessarily indicate a dissatisfaction with the North Park basketball program and his role in it. There are all kinds of reasons why a student-athlete leaves school: Money, academics, girlfriend, job, dissatisfaction with campus life, etc. I don't know the specifics as to why Chimino left NPU after one year, and it appears that you don't, either.

Afterall, his former teammate from mvcc used both of his at NCC!

Is that what this is all about? Were you irritated that Chimino didn't accompany MVCC teammate Dominique King to NCC?

Furthermore, just because chimino's talents weren't up to par for NP doesn't mean he wouldn't have been better off using them elsewhere!

Sure. He could've gone to, say, Eureka or Rockford or Monmouth and played a lot more than he played for North Park. But you can make that argument about every single player who doesn't start for a particular team. Using your logic, you could even point to UWSP's sixth man, Jerrel Harris, and say, "He would've been better off at another school, because he didn't start and he played less than twenty minutes per game for the Pointers this past season."

The reductio ad absurdum of your argument is that every player in college basketball is doing himself a disservice if he's playing for a team on which he is not a starter, unless he's at the very bottom rung of four-year college basketball (i.e., an NCCAA or USCAA bottom-feeder) and thus has no possibility of starting somewhere else.

As I said, it's not that Chimino's talents were not up to par for NPU. He simply didn't perform well when given a chance to shine on the NPU varsity. He had plenty of those chances, and he had them right away. This discussion has been about players who are not going to get those immediate chances, e.g., the incoming freshmen for IWU whose college choice Mark has lamented. Jon Chimino does not fit into that category.

His case does fit the model of our conversation because he was indeed blocked! Anytime the coach feels there are other options on the team that can help win games moreso than you. My friend you have just been blocked. It doesn't matter if its because of a lack of talent, depth at a position, or overall depth of the team!

With all due respect, cardinalpride, that's totally ridiculous. Being blocked is all about never getting the chance to prove yourself. That's what this discussion has been about all along. It has nothing to do with getting that chance and failing at it. That's not being blocked; that's simply not being good enough and failing. Bob's Little League analogy pretty much says it all:

The old "blocked because you're not good enough" problem...I'd say that is a biggie. 

Maybe we could institute Little League rules in the CCIW - every kid gets to play a little bit, no matter how good or bad.  Then we'd have no poor decisions and no bad experiences.  And hopefully each team would go 7-7. 

Something to consider.

Scrap the MOP and All-CCIW teams! Participation ribbons for everybody!

[Ralph Turner]

Have a good summer, Gregory and Dennis!   

[Gregory Sager]

Don't take any crap from those Swedish-Americans, Ralph. Let them know that they don't own the road.

[Dennis_Prikkel]

Have a good summer, Gregory and Dennis!  

u2 and the horse you rode in on  

[cardinalpride]

Greg, I said he "may" not have had the best experience!  There maybe some assumption in my statement but that doesn't mean it isn't reasonable. Chimino didn't play for the park the following year after getting very few minutes in the previous one!

"Very few minutes"? On what planet does seventeen varsity appearances at eight minutes per game translate as "very few minutes"?

Greg,  there are at least 1000 minutes over the course of a season to be played in a given season at this level.  Chimino played in a whopping 136 of them!  By my math that's 13.6% and i'm no math genious.  If you average the minutes over the course of a season that's less than 6 minutes per game.  Hello!  On planet earth that constitutes as "very few minutes".   Unless he was hurt or suspended for the 8 games he flat out missed, those dnp's have to be factored in.   Was he hurt or suspended?  I certainly know he did play some JV.  Did he not?

I ASSUME since he transferred in as a junior he did have another year remaining. Didn't he?

Yes, he did.

I also ASSUME when he made his decision to attend NP that he planned on using them both!

He probably did think that he'd play for two seasons at NPU. But the fact that he did not doesn't necessarily indicate a dissatisfaction with the North Park basketball program and his role in it. There are all kinds of reasons why a student-athlete leaves school: Money, academics, girlfriend, job, dissatisfaction with campus life, etc. I don't know the specifics as to why Chimino left NPU after one year, and it appears that you don't, either.

You're right!  There are all sorts of reasons why kids leave school.  That's why I said "may not have had the best experience" in the first place.  However, all the reasons you mentioned a student-athlete leaves school can point to that student "not making the best decision" to attend the school and/or "not having the best experience" at the school.  Furthermore, just because I haven't shared any specifics on Chimino doesn't mean I don't have any!

Afterall, his former teammate from mvcc used both of his at NCC!

Is that what this is all about? Were you irritated that Chimino didn't accompany MVCC teammate Dominique King to NCC?

No, I was just kidding with you from the start.  Didn't bother me at all!  The only thing that bothered me were the two 3's he hit against my Beloved at NP.  In one of the "very few minutes" stretches he earned!

Furthermore, just because chimino's talents weren't up to par for NP doesn't mean he wouldn't have been better off using them elsewhere!

Sure. He could've gone to, say, Eureka or Rockford or Monmouth and played a lot more than he played for North Park. But you can make that argument about every single player who doesn't start for a particular team. Using your logic, you could even point to UWSP's sixth man, Jerrel Harris, and say, "He would've been better off at another school, because he didn't start and he played less than twenty minutes per game for the Pointers this past season."

It would be if that were my logic but it's not!  It's all about a player's expectation coming thru the door!  Harris' expectation as a freshman probably wasn't the same as Chimino's as a Junior JC transfer.  If a student-athletes expectation isn't met by the school/program that leaves the student-athlete with one of two choices.  Either stay and deal with it or leave and move on!  It's that simple.  Harris will probably end up being a good player at SP.  He will stay and deal with it.  Chimino as we all know left NP!

The reductio ad absurdum of your argument is that every player in college basketball is doing himself a disservice if he's playing for a team on which he is not a starter, unless he's at the very bottom rung of four-year college basketball (i.e., an NCCAA or USCAA bottom-feeder) and thus has no possibility of starting somewhere else.

That's not my argument at all!

As I said, it's not that Chimino's talents were not up to par for NPU. He simply didn't perform well when given a chance to shine on the NPU varsity. He had plenty of those chances, and he had them right away. This discussion has been about players who are not going to get those immediate chances, e.g., the incoming freshmen for IWU whose college choice Mark has lamented. Jon Chimino does not fit into that category.

Greg, every player has an opportunity to earn playing time.  That's why teams practice everyday!  That's where a player consistently proves he can play!  Those IWU incoming freshmen will have an opportunity as well.  I think by now we all understand what Mark and everyone has been saying.  However you are not seeing clearly what I was saying to TQ and Dansand to begin with.  The two of them were naming players that didn't play significant minutes in their first year with the program but went on to have good careers.  I simply threw out a couple of names that didn't play sigificant minutes in their first year and it didn't work out for them!  Chimino was an example of that!

His case does fit the model of our conversation because he was indeed blocked! Anytime the coach feels there are other options on the team that can help win games moreso than you. My friend you have just been blocked. It doesn't matter if its because of a lack of talent, depth at a position, or overall depth of the team!

With all due respect, cardinalpride, that's totally ridiculous. Being blocked is all about never getting the chance to prove yourself. That's what this discussion has been about all along. It has nothing to do with getting that chance and failing at it. That's not being blocked; that's simply not being good enough and failing. Bob's Little League analogy pretty much says it all:

Greg, as i mentioned before, the coach gives a player a chance when practice uniforms are handed out to prove himself!  A good coach knows when a player is ready for varsity level basketball.  If the player is truly ready the coach will find the minutes for the player. It doesn't matter who's pencilled in ahead of him before the games start and it certainly doesn't matter if the player is a freshman.  Once it has been determined through weeks of practice that the player is not ready then "blocking" occurs.  Not by another player, not even so much by the coach, but by the players own inept ability!  When a player is given a chance and fails then obviously the player wasn't ready to begin with.  A good coach with a talent ladened team will know that in practice.  Another coach with not so much talent will continue to utilize the player until another viable option develops.

[Gregory Sager]

Well, the fact that you're inserting your replies into the quotes will constitute something of a problem in terms of my replies. At least you're using a different color to make it readable, and it's gentlemanly of you to use blue.

Greg, I said he "may" not have had the best experience!  There maybe some assumption in my statement but that doesn't mean it isn't reasonable. Chimino didn't play for the park the following year after getting very few minutes in the previous one!

"Very few minutes"? On what planet does seventeen varsity appearances at eight minutes per game translate as "very few minutes"?

Greg,  there are at least 1000 minutes over the course of a season to be played in a given season at this level.  Chimino played in a whopping 136 of them!  By my math that's 13.6% and i'm no math genious.  If you average the minutes over the course of a season that's less than 6 minutes per game.  Hello!  On planet earth that constitutes as "very few minutes".   Unless he was hurt or suspended for the 8 games he flat out missed, those dnp's have to be factored in.   Was he hurt or suspended?  I certainly know he did play some JV.  Did he not?

No, that's not very few minutes. That's eight minutes per game -- which is a significant portion of a game, as even rotation players sometimes don't average eight mpg -- spread out over seventeen games. That is to say, Chimino saw the floor in two-thirds of NPU's contests that year. He was tenth on the team in minutes played, which on most teams is just outside of rotation status, and he would've been ninth had Ed Whitaker not come out of nowhere to go from Mr. DNP to starter at the end of the season, based upon his excellent work ethic in practice.

Chimino was not hurt or suspended. He received eight DNPs because other players were doing a better job of putting the ball in the hoop, and preventing opponents from putting the ball in the hoop, than he was. You don't factor DNPs into average minutes per game. And I've already stated that he played JV, at his own request, for which I lauded him yesterday.

Chimino did not play "very few minutes."

I ASSUME since he transferred in as a junior he did have another year remaining. Didn't he?

Yes, he did.

I also ASSUME when he made his decision to attend NP that he planned on using them both!

He probably did think that he'd play for two seasons at NPU. But the fact that he did not doesn't necessarily indicate a dissatisfaction with the North Park basketball program and his role in it. There are all kinds of reasons why a student-athlete leaves school: Money, academics, girlfriend, job, dissatisfaction with campus life, etc. I don't know the specifics as to why Chimino left NPU after one year, and it appears that you don't, either.

You're right!  There are all sorts of reasons why kids leave school.  That's why I said "may not have had the best experience" in the first place.  However, all the reasons you mentioned a student-athlete leaves school can point to that student "not making the best decision" to attend the school and/or "not having the best experience" at the school.  Furthermore, just because I haven't shared any specifics on Chimino doesn't mean I don't have any!

... and I've allowed from the start that NPU may not have been the best decision for Chimino, or that he may not have had the best experience there. As I said before, I'm agnostic on the issue; I have no contact with Jon Chimino, and I've never discussed him with anybody in the program since he left NPU. But if he had a bad experience at the Park as a basketball player it's not from lack of opportunity, which is the whole point of this discussion.

Afterall, his former teammate from mvcc used both of his at NCC!

Is that what this is all about? Were you irritated that Chimino didn't accompany MVCC teammate Dominique King to NCC?

No, I was just kidding with you from the start.  Didn't bother me at all!  The only thing that bothered me were the two 3's he hit against my Beloved at NP.  In one of the "very few minutes" stretches he earned!

You have a better memory than I when it comes to Chimino's performance in that game, since I don't recall him standing out at all for NPU except for in a home game against Eureka early in the season.

Furthermore, just because chimino's talents weren't up to par for NP doesn't mean he wouldn't have been better off using them elsewhere!

Sure. He could've gone to, say, Eureka or Rockford or Monmouth and played a lot more than he played for North Park. But you can make that argument about every single player who doesn't start for a particular team. Using your logic, you could even point to UWSP's sixth man, Jerrel Harris, and say, "He would've been better off at another school, because he didn't start and he played less than twenty minutes per game for the Pointers this past season."

It would be if that were my logic but it's not!  It's all about a player's expectation coming thru the door!  Harris' expectation as a freshman probably wasn't the same as Chimino's as a Junior JC transfer.  If a student-athletes expectation isn't met by the school/program that leaves the student-athlete with one of two choices.  Either stay and deal with it or leave and move on!  It's that simple.  Harris will probably end up being a good player at SP.  He will stay and deal with it.  Chimino as we all know left NP!

If Chimino's expectation was that he was going to start no matter what, or that he would see consistent minutes whether or not he earned them, he was sorely mistaken. Nobody should have those expectations, either coming through the door or afterwards. Playing time needs to be earned. Chimino didn't earn any more playing time than he received. But he was never denied an opportunity to earn it -- and that's the whole point here.

The reductio ad absurdum of your argument is that every player in college basketball is doing himself a disservice if he's playing for a team on which he is not a starter, unless he's at the very bottom rung of four-year college basketball (i.e., an NCCAA or USCAA bottom-feeder) and thus has no possibility of starting somewhere else.

That's not my argument at all!

No, but it's the logical conclusion of it taken to its furthest extreme (that's what reductio ad absurdum means). If the rightness or wrongness of a student-athlete's decision to attend a certain college is predicated upon his playing time, at least in basketball terms (Mark, to his credit, has made it clear that he's only arguing in basketball terms), then the argument reduces all of the reasons for playing for a specific school down to that one simple variable -- and the relative merit of any school is dependent upon how much of that variable it can provide to the student-athlete. Ergo, playing more minutes at a lower-tier school is always better than playing fewer minutes at a higher-tier school. People on d3boards.com sometimes make this argument on behalf of D1 benchwarmers whom the arguer insists should transfer to D3, where he'd receive more playing time. What they don't realize is that when you boil down an argument to an absolute and then use it as a blanket statement for everybody, you end up ruining your argument in the process.

As I said, it's not that Chimino's talents were not up to par for NPU. He simply didn't perform well when given a chance to shine on the NPU varsity. He had plenty of those chances, and he had them right away. This discussion has been about players who are not going to get those immediate chances, e.g., the incoming freshmen for IWU whose college choice Mark has lamented. Jon Chimino does not fit into that category.

Greg, every player has an opportunity to earn playing time.  That's why teams practice everyday!  That's where a player consistently proves he can play!  Those IWU incoming freshmen will have an opportunity as well.  I think by now we all understand what Mark and everyone has been saying.

You're contradicting what Mark was saying. His point all along has been that next season's incoming IWU freshmen will not have that opportunity to get immediate playing time, and that they would've had it had they chosen NCC instead. That was the whole purpose behind his attempt to persuade Andrew Ziemnik to choose North Central over Illinois Wesleyan.

However you are not seeing clearly what I was saying to TQ and Dansand to begin with.  The two of them were naming players that didn't play significant minutes in their first year with the program but went on to have good careers.  I simply threw out a couple of names that didn't play sigificant minutes in their first year and it didn't work out for them!  Chimino was an example of that!

I see perfectly what you are trying to do. Toliver fits your reasoning ... although Bob has explained why Toliver doesn't fit the parameters of the discussion, which concerns newbies that aren't given a chance because they're blocked by older players. Toliver had his chance, because he had nobody blocking him at the point for IWU, and he simply failed to take advantage of it. Chimino does not fit this discussion, either, because: a) contrary to your statement, he did play significant minutes; b) he was given an immediate opportunity by Paul Brenegan, as he appeared in the first six Vikings games of 2007-08; and c) the fact that it didn't work out for Chimino at NPU had nothing to do with a lack of opportunity at any point during the season (his longest DNP streak was four games, and, in fact, he played in NPU's next-to-last game of the season).

For the record, the other player you named -- Jon DeMoss -- doesn't fit the argument, either. I don't recall Dan saying that DeMoss left Augustana because he was stuck behind other players on the depth chart. What's more, DeMoss was gone from the team before it ever took the floor last season, so he didn't even have a first year in which to not receive significant minutes. DeMoss's first-year minutes, or lack thereof, are now Mike Schauer's concern, not Grey Giovanine's.

His case does fit the model of our conversation because he was indeed blocked! Anytime the coach feels there are other options on the team that can help win games moreso than you. My friend you have just been blocked. It doesn't matter if its because of a lack of talent, depth at a position, or overall depth of the team!

With all due respect, cardinalpride, that's totally ridiculous. Being blocked is all about never getting the chance to prove yourself. That's what this discussion has been about all along. It has nothing to do with getting that chance and failing at it. That's not being blocked; that's simply not being good enough and failing. Bob's Little League analogy pretty much says it all:

Greg, the coach gives a player a chance when practice uniforms are handed out to prove himself!  A good coach knows when a player is ready for varsity level basketball.  If the player is truly ready the coach will find the minutes for the player. It doesn't matter who's pencilled in ahead of him before the games start and it certainly doesn't matter if the player is a freshman.  Once it has been determined through weeks of practice that the player is not ready then "blocking" occurs.  Not by another player, not even so much by the coach, but by the players own inept ability!  When a player is given a chance and fails then obviously the player wasn't ready to begin with.  A good coach with a talent ladened team will know that in practice.  Another coach with not so much talent will continue to utilize the player until another viable option develops.

You're making a completely different argument, and using the term "blocked" in a completely different way, than anyone else is here.

First, your statement that "if a player is truly ready, the coach will find the minutes for the player" is incorrect. A JV player can be ready for varsity minutes at the CCIW level and still fail to get those minutes. In fact, a player can come into the league straight from high school ready to contribute positively to the varsity by CCIW standards and still not get those minutes. Why? Because there's only 200 team minutes per game that a coach can distribute among his roster (40 minutes x 5 positions = 200 team minutes). You can be a CCIW-quality power forward, but if you have a teammate who is an All-CCIW-caliber power forward, you are not going to get a very big chunk of those 200 minutes. If the starting center and/or the starting small forward are likewise above league average, or if you have limited versatility, your chunk gets smaller. And if the backup PF is also CCIW-quality, and he's got more experience than you, your chunk shrinks down to nothing.

In other words, yes, it does matter who's penciled in ahead of him. That's Mark's whole point.

Second, you're using "blocked" in a self-applied sense. To put it another way, you're saying that a player can block himself. None of the rest of us are using the term in that way. We're saying that, in order to be blocked, a newbie will arrive on the scene with talented and experienced players ahead of him on the depth chart who will keep him from getting the first-team reps in practice. That's what we mean by blocked: A lack of opportunity, not a lack of playing time even if an opportunity or two or six has already come and gone.

[cardinalpride]

Again, my comments were centered around tq and dan "good decision/not the best decision" former player list! The players tq and dan mentioned made a decision to develop and wait their turn because upon entry they were not able and/or good enough to play for the teams they were on. It worked out for them. Toliver at some point was faced with a similar decision and chose to leave. Chimino was faced with a similar decision problem is he didn't have time to develop and wait his turn. He did not return for his final year. Demoss may have seen the writing on the wall early during his brief campaign. All three of those young men committed to schools and something happened which led to them leaving and/or not returning. Their initial choice was "not the best" and/or "they didn't have the best experience". I'm not referring to every kid just those kids.

As far as "blocking" is concerned, if a player has the ability and is good enough to play, a good coach will not deny the player an opportunity. For example, if steve d. Would have attended wheaton do you not think coach harris would have played him alongside raymond and panner? All three young men are natural 2 guards. Are you saying steve d. Would have been "blocked"?  Kids are only "blocked" if they are not good enough to play consistently. Ill say it again, it doesn't matter what the returning roster looks like!

[cardinalpride]

Greg, two more points/questions: A player that feels he's getting "significant" varsity minutes wouldn't request to play jv! Would he?  Also, a jv player that's ready to play varsity means at some point the player wasn't ready for varsity action. Because a good coach wouldn't have wasted jv games on the player if the player could help him on the varsity level, would he?

[Dennis_Prikkel]

Greg, two more points/questions: A player that feels he's getting "significant" varsity minutes wouldn't request to play jv! Would he?  Also, a jv player that's ready to play varsity means at some point the player wasn't ready for varsity action. Because a good coach wouldn't have wasted jv games on the player if the player could help him on the varsity level, would he?

I don't know cp - Wally Coots and Greg Applequist both played four years of jayvee ball for North Park and I know Greg was a lot better player and person than a lot of the guys Rees Johnson had on the floor his senior year.

Both, by the way, are now Covenant pastors.

dgp

[cardinalpride]

Greg, two more points/questions: A player that feels he's getting "significant" varsity minutes wouldn't request to play jv! Would he?  Also, a jv player that's ready to play varsity means at some point the player wasn't ready for varsity action. Because a good coach wouldn't have wasted jv games on the player if the player could help him on the varsity level, would he?

I don't know cp - Wally Coots and Greg Applequist both played four years of jayvee ball for North Park and I know Greg was a lot better player and person than a lot of the guys Rees Johnson had on the floor his senior year.

Both, by the way, are now Covenant pastors.

dgp

DGP,
Just what are you saying about the "ole ball coach"? 

[Titan Q]

The following post has generated 4 pages (and counting) of chatter over six days...

Sounds like an incoming class of 13-15 freshmen in Naperville.  I'm interested in your thoughts about the quantity of recruits NCC is bringing in.  Too many?

Let's see who can beat that in the off-season!

[pgkevin]

The following post has generated 4 pages (and counting) of chatter over six days...

Sounds like an incoming class of 13-15 freshmen in Naperville.  I'm interested in your thoughts about the quantity of recruits NCC is bringing in.  Too many?

Let's see who can beat that in the off-season!

I dunno if anyone can beat the quantity, but the quality and entertainment of these past pages is not going to beat, at least in my mind.