MBB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

[Gregory Sager]

Again, my comments were centered around tq and dan "good decision/not the best decision" former player list! The players tq and dan mentioned made a decision to develop and wait their turn because upon entry they were not able and/or good enough to play for the teams they were on. It worked out for them. Toliver at some point was faced with a similar decision and chose to leave. Chimino was faced with a similar decision problem is he didn't have time to develop and wait his turn. He did not return for his final year.

As I said before, you're arguing about a completely different subject than the rest of us have been arguing. You're discussing results; we've been discussing opportunity. I can see why you've moved further afield to a different topic, because Bob and Dan and I briefly went in a results-oriented direction by dropping the names of six successful CCIW basketball alumni who started out as JVers. Not coincidentally, that's where you entered the discussion. But, make no mistake, this thread has been about opportunity rather than results. It's the whole reason why Bob locked horns with Mark in the first place concerning the wisdom of the decision by certain high-school senior basketball players to choose IWU over other schools that, unlike IWU, don't have loaded returning rosters (NCC in particular). And it's the reason why Bob disputed the idea that all 13-to-15 potential Cardinals recruits would get a fair shot at playing this coming year. The subject here is opportunity, not results.

Demoss may have seen the writing on the wall early during his brief campaign.

DeMoss never had a campaign, brief or otherwise, which is why I said that including him on your list of players who did not see significant minutes as a freshman was a mistake. DeMoss quit before the season even started; ergo, he was not a freshman. This coming year he will be a freshman, albeit for Wheaton, and we can see then whether or not he fits your criterion.

As far as "blocking" is concerned, if a player has the ability and is good enough to play, a good coach will not deny the player an opportunity.

I disagree. Having the ability and being good enough to play are not the issues here. Joining a team in which returning players also have the ability and are good enough to play -- plus experience and advanced physical development that the newbie doesn't have -- is the issue. You can be the D3 equivalent of a blue-chip recruit and lead everyone who follows your program to think that you're a future All-CCIW player, but if your program has strong, experienced returning players who play your position it won't make a bit of difference -- you won't play. If you do play in spite of those conditions, it's either because you're a world-beater of rare proportions, or because your elders who were heretofore blocking you weren't all that they were cracked up to be, or both.

For example, if steve d. Would have attended wheaton do you not think coach harris would have played him alongside raymond and panner?

If Steve Djurickovic would've chosen Wheaton over Carthage, there would've been two fatal heart attack victims in the CCIW coaching ranks: Bosko Djurickovic and Bill Harris.

If Bill had somehow pulled through after his myocardial infarct, his first move upon being released from DuPage Hospital would've been to start planning how to use a starting lineup that included Steve Djurickovic, Kent Raymond, and Ben Panner, with Andrew Jahns coming off the bench. His second move would've been to look at the Wheaton trophy case in the King Arena lobby to try to figure out where the Walnut and Bronze his team was going to win would go.

Seriously, though, you're forgetting that Steve D. and Jahns are the same age. Both came into the league as frosh in 2007-08; both will be seniors this upcoming season. Jahns was a starter for most of his freshman season (the games he didn't start, place-fillers Stephen Young and Jeremy Berntsen started -- not that Harris was particularly happy about having to start either one). He would not have been displaced by Steve D., because they're peers. Steve D. would not have been displacing any entrenched players. Even if he had, he certainly fits under the rare-bird description I mentioned above, because Steve Djurickovic will finish up his career next season as one of the greatest CCIW basketball players of all time.

All three young men are natural 2 guards.

Not true. If anyone fits the mold of a point guard, it's Steve Djurickovic. He ranked fifth in the nation last year in assists per game. Good grief, he's got 484 career assists already in only three years; the next-highest career assist total in the Carthage record book belongs to Stan Kapka, who amassed a mere 357 assists in four seasons. To give you some idea of just how good Steve D. is at dishing out dimes, here's the career leader for each of the CCIW's eight schools:

player	last yr	asts
Drew Boster, AC	1973	559
Steve Djurickovic, CC	2010	484
Eric Stark, EC	1999	387
Brian Martin, IWU	1993	524
Adam Provance, MU	1999	425
Adam Teising, NCC	2006	273
Michael Thomas, NPU	1981	701
Randy Pfund, WC	1974	478

By the end of next season, North Park immortal Michael Thomas will be the only player in CCIW history who made more assists than Steve D.

Steve D. excels at everything that you expect from a point guard. His court vision is unparalleled. He is a phenomenal ballhandler. He is among the best free-throw shooters in the conference. He has masterful touch on his passes. He's a solid perimeter defender. He knows the game inside and out, and is in effect another coach on the floor. And nobody disputes his leadership ability, which is especially important on such a young team.

He's not a "natural two-guard." He's actually not a natural anything; like all good PGs, he honed his craft through a lot of hard work. Steve D.'s a point guard by trade, because he's been a gym rat from the time he could crawl.

Also, while I agree that Kent Raymond was probably less of a prototypical PG than is Djurickovic, he was an outstanding floor general who likewise did everything well that's expected of the position. Wheaton never suffered because Raymond was the guy who had the ball in his hands when the offense was being set up; quite the contrary, in fact.

Are you saying steve d. Would have been "blocked"?

There isn't a program in D3 in which Steve D. would've been blocked. And, yes, that includes Wash U. Bears coach Mark Edwards would've made room for Steve D. alongside Sean Wallis.

Kids are only "blocked" if they are not good enough to play consistently. Ill say it again, it doesn't matter what the returning roster looks like!

It makes all the difference in the world what the returning roster looks like. And you're really not helping your argument by using Steve D. as your example, because there's nothing at all typical about him.

Greg, two more points/questions: A player that feels he's getting "significant" varsity minutes wouldn't request to play jv! Would he?

I don't know, because you're asking me to know what went on inside Jon Chimino's head. But the answer I would give is, "probably not." But here's the rub: You're talking about how a player feels, as opposed to objective data. Many, many players are not objective about their playing time; they all feel that they should get more of it, even if knowledgeable onlookers (particularly the coaches) disagree. Believe me, I've been around basketball players for a long, long time, and a great many of them bitch about not getting enough tick. There's typically a lot of ego that goes into being a basketball player.

My guess is that: a) Chimino wanted to work on his game by getting more PT, even if he had to get it in JV games; b) Chimino wanted to impress Brenegan with his selflessness and work ethic by requesting a voluntary demotion; or c) both. But none of this suggests that Chimino wasn't getting significant minutes in the 2007-08 season; it simply suggests that he wasn't getting as many minutes as he wanted. To which I would've said, take a number, Jon ... you have a whole bunch of teammates who feel the same way about their playing time (or lack thereof) as you do about yours. It's all part of the healthy internal competition that helps make teams good, or good teams better.

Also, a jv player that's ready to play varsity means at some point the player wasn't ready for varsity action.

Not true. To cite two of the examples already brought up, I can attest to having seen Rick Harrigan play JV for Augustana and Keelan Amelianovich play JV for Illinois Wesleyan. And I can attest that both were varsity-ready as freshmen. They were simply blocked by older, more experienced players.

Because a good coach wouldn't have wasted jv games on the player if the player could help him on the varsity level, would he?

A good coach puts the players on the floor who give him the best chance to win a game. There could be any number of players present on the roster who could help him on the varsity level; but if he's a good coach, he'll play the players who can help him the most. The other ones won't be playing "wasted" JV games, because they'll be honing their skills in game action and preparing to be among the players who can best help the team win varsity games in the future.

[Titan Q]

Congratulations to John Baines, the new head coach at NAIA St. Francis (Joliet)...

http://www.gofightingsaints.com/article/358.php

http://www.pantagraph.com/sports/college/baseball/article_e9991420-5ec7-11df-b81b-001cc4c002e0.html


Baines has done a tremendous job at Elmhurst...he will do great at St. Francis.  I'll bet CCIW schools lose some recruits to the Fighting Saints moving forward.

[Titan Q]

Not true. If anyone fits the mold of a point guard, it's Steve Djurickovic. He ranked fifth in the nation last year in assists per game. Good grief, he's got 484 career assists already in only three years; the next-highest career assist total in the Carthage record book belongs to Stan Kapka, who amassed a mere 357 assists in four seasons. To give you some idea of just how good Steve D. is at dishing out dimes, here's the career leader for each of the CCIW's eight schools:

player	last yr	asts
Drew Boster, AC	1973	559
Steve Djurickovic, CC	2010	484
Eric Stark, EC	1999	387
Brian Martin, IWU	1993	524
Adam Provance, MU	1999	425
Adam Teising, NCC	2006	273
Michael Thomas, NPU	1981	701
Randy Pfund, WC	1974	478

IWU's all-time assist leader is Adam Dauksas, class of 2006 (584 assists).

[Titan Q]

There isn't a program in D3 in which Steve D. would've been blocked. And, yes, that includes Wash U. Bears coach Mark Edwards would've made room for Steve D. alongside Sean Wallis.

I disagree.  If Djurickovic went to Wash U and was a freshman on the 2007-08 team (Wash U's first national championship), their starting lineup still would have been...

G - Sean Wallis
G - Aaron Thompson
F - Tyler Nading
F - Cam Smith
C - Troy Ruths

I don't see how Djurickovic would have started over any one of those 5 that season.  That team was structured absolutely perfectly - the pure PG, the deadly 3-point shooter, the do-it-all combo forward, the defensive/rebounding specialist, and the stud low-post guy.  Djurickovic would have played a ton of minutes backing up the 1, 2, and 3, but I just don't think he would have started.

[Gregory Sager]

Not true. If anyone fits the mold of a point guard, it's Steve Djurickovic. He ranked fifth in the nation last year in assists per game. Good grief, he's got 484 career assists already in only three years; the next-highest career assist total in the Carthage record book belongs to Stan Kapka, who amassed a mere 357 assists in four seasons. To give you some idea of just how good Steve D. is at dishing out dimes, here's the career leader for each of the CCIW's eight schools:

player	last yr	asts
Drew Boster, AC	1973	559
Steve Djurickovic, CC	2010	484
Eric Stark, EC	1999	387
Brian Martin, IWU	1993	524
Adam Provance, MU	1999	425
Adam Teising, NCC	2006	273
Michael Thomas, NPU	1981	701
Randy Pfund, WC	1974	478

IWU's all-time assist leader is Adam Dauksas, class of 2006 (584 assists).

You need to update your site, Bob, 'cause that's where I got the IWU assists leader info.

There isn't a program in D3 in which Steve D. would've been blocked. And, yes, that includes Wash U. Bears coach Mark Edwards would've made room for Steve D. alongside Sean Wallis.

I disagree.  If Djurickovic went to Wash U and was a freshman on the 2007-08 team (Wash U's first national championship), their starting lineup still would have been...

G - Sean Wallis
G - Aaron Thompson
F - Tyler Nading
F - Cam Smith
C - Troy Ruths

I don't see how Djurickovic would have started over any one of those 5 that season.  That team was structured absolutely perfectly - the pure PG, the deadly 3-point shooter, the do-it-all combo forward, the defensive/rebounding specialist, and the stud low-post guy.

I gotta disagree. I had a healthy respect for Cam Smith's blue-collar abilities, but I don't see how he could've started over Djurickovic. At the very least, Steve D. would've come off the bench and played starter minutes for the 2007-08 Bears.

[Titan Q]

I gotta disagree. I had a healthy respect for Cam Smith's blue-collar abilities, but I don't see how he could've started over Djurickovic. At the very least, Steve D. would've come off the bench and played starter minutes for the 2007-08 Bears.

Smith was a 6-5, strong, athletic kid who could guard the other teams best wing or PF.  He meant way too much to that team to replace him with a skinny 6-3 guard who, at that time, could not shoot the 3 very well.  

As great as Djurickovic was as a freshman at so many phases of the game, I just do not think he would not have started on that Wash U team.  At the 1, they had a better PG for what they needed, at the 2 they had one of the best shooters in the country, at the 3 they had 6-7 Tyler Nading (maybe the toughest matchup in D3), and at the 4 they had a guy who did absolutely every little thing to help them win on both ends of the floor.

25 minutes per game off the bench...absolutely.

[Titan Q]

You need to update your site, Bob, 'cause that's where I got the IWU assists leader info.

Looks like at out-of-date link to the school's old site...

http://www.iwu.edu/~iwunews/sports/mbbrec01.html


The new one, which looks to be updated through 2009-10...

http://www.iwusports.com/custompages/MBB/CAREER-M/HTML/histcarr.htm


I'll get my intern on that immediately.

[Gregory Sager]

I gotta disagree. I had a healthy respect for Cam Smith's blue-collar abilities, but I don't see how he could've started over Djurickovic. At the very least, Steve D. would've come off the bench and played starter minutes for the 2007-08 Bears.

Smith was a 6-5, strong, athletic kid who could guard the other teams best wing or PF.  He meant way too much to that team to replace him with a skinny 6-3 guard who, at that time, could not shoot the 3 very well.  

As great as Djurickovic was as a freshman at so many phases of the game, I just do not think he would not have started on that Wash U team.  At the 1, they had a better PG for what they needed, at the 2 they had one of the best shooters in the country, at the 3 they had 6-7 Tyler Nading (maybe the toughest matchup in D3), and at the 4 they had a guy who did absolutely every little thing to help them win on both ends of the floor.

25 minutes per game off the bench...absolutely.

Nading could've filled that defensive role that Smith had, albeit not as well as Smith. But the tradeoff in terms of having someone who could handle the ball, dish, and relentlessly get to the basket (and the FT line) as well as Steve D. could, even as a freshman, would've been more than worth it. In other words, Steve D. would've brought more pluses to the team than sitting Smith would've created minuses.

Nevertheless, 25 mpg off the bench is pretty close to what I described as "starter's minutes" in my previous post, so perhaps this discussion is moot.

[Gregory Sager]

You need to update your site, Bob, 'cause that's where I got the IWU assists leader info.

Looks like at out-of-date link to the school's old site...

http://www.iwu.edu/~iwunews/sports/mbbrec01.html


The new one, which looks to be updated through 2009-10...

http://www.iwusports.com/custompages/MBB/CAREER-M/HTML/histcarr.htm


I'll get my intern on that immediately.

Dauksas or Martin, Steve D. is still going to end his career trailing only Michael T. on the CCIW overall career assists leaderboard. Which makes me wonder: How many players are there in college basketball history who recorded both 2,000 points and 500 assists in their careers? No more than a tiny handful at best, I would guess ... and Bosko Djurickovic will end up having coached two of them (albeit one as an assistant coach).

[Mr. Ypsi]

It is possible that Steve D. may finish trailing nobody.  He is 217 assists behind Michael T. - this past season he had 218 assists.

[Gregory Sager]

It is possible that Steve D. may finish trailing nobody.  He is 217 assists behind Michael T. - this past season he had 218 assists.

Good point ... but it really comes down to length of season. Can Carthage count upon playing thirty games again in 2010-11 rather than a mere twenty-five?

I'd say that Djurickovic has an outside chance at passing Thomas -- but I've learned not to underestimate him.

[CCIWFAN3]

Q are you and G.S. at it agian...I mean I've never heard you two disagree before:)  did ya miss me?  Of course to add to your discussion....it also would depend on who is coaching WashU.  Have there been any D3 coaches who haven't started their own son as a freshman...and that always had the green light?   I'm just asking...I'm sure someone will look it up:)   I've been busier than a ......can't say it online.   Still look forward to meeting you next season Greg...and seeing you again too Bob. 

[Titan Q]

Congratulations to John Baines, the new head coach at NAIA St. Francis (Joliet)...

http://www.gofightingsaints.com/article/358.php

http://www.pantagraph.com/sports/college/baseball/article_e9991420-5ec7-11df-b81b-001cc4c002e0.html


Baines has done a tremendous job at Elmhurst...he will do great at St. Francis.  I'll bet CCIW schools lose some recruits to the Fighting Saints moving forward.

More on John Baines...

http://www.ilprepbullseye.com/page46.html

[Titan Q]

Congratulations to John Baines, the new head coach at NAIA St. Francis (Joliet)...

http://www.gofightingsaints.com/article/358.php

http://www.pantagraph.com/sports/college/baseball/article_e9991420-5ec7-11df-b81b-001cc4c002e0.html


Baines has done a tremendous job at Elmhurst...he will do great at St. Francis.  I'll bet CCIW schools lose some recruits to the Fighting Saints moving forward.

More on John Baines...

http://www.ilprepbullseye.com/page46.html

Another...

http://www.suburbanchicagonews.com/heraldnews/sports/2272664,4_2_JO14_BAINES_S1-100514.article

[cardinalpride]

Greg, we will have to agree to disagree! You say "blocked"! I say "not good enough"! You say "wasn't granted the opportunity"! I say "wasn't good enough to take advantage"!

Steve D. Can we both agree that he's a "lead guard"? I will agree that for what Carthage needs him to do he provides.  However, a leader in assist doesn't necessarily make a player a pg. It makes a player a good passer.  Wilt led the NBA in assist one year. Was he a pg?

You disagree with me at the start of some of your arguments and by the time you're finished with it you're agreeing with me! Which is it? You're starting to use terminology to classify players such as "World beater"and
"typical". A "world beater" as you said would play anywhere.  Wouldn't you agree a "world beater" also falls under my category as a "good enough/ready" player? So does a "typical" player depending on the team the "typical" player is on.

In regards to harrigan and keelan a.,   At what point during their first year did you see them play? Was it in november or did you have to wait 2 or 3 months before they had the privilege of pouring in 25 or 30 on the NPJV? That would matter. Besides just because you believed they were ready as freshman wouldn't have meant a hill of beans to coach g or trost. If I recall, both teams that year battled down to the last weekend for a conference title. Obviously, my point "good enough" is all relative to the team the player is on.
 
Dare I say, could steve d. have started ahead of wallis? Wash u did win a title without him didn't they?