MBB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

[Titan Q]

Not true. To cite two of the examples already brought up, I can attest to having seen Rick Harrigan play JV for Augustana and Keelan Amelianovich play JV for Illinois Wesleyan. And I can attest that both were varsity-ready as freshmen. They were simply blocked by older, more experienced players.

This will come as a surprise to readers of the board, but I will have to disagree with Greg on this.

Keelan was not ready to play varsity as a freshman.  I watched him go scoreless in one JV game that season, and in most JV games he looked very average.  The best player on that JV team was Steve Schweer, followed by Cory Jones and Jason Fisher.  Keelan was really no more than a "role player" on that JV team.  The IWU 2002-03 varsity team could have really used one more perimeter shooter, but while Keelan turned out to be one the best shooters I've ever seen, he just wasn't ready to play that year (on either end of the floor).

I feel the same about Rick Harrigan.  In the two JV games I saw him play, he looked like a JV player.  I remember posting that year how it seemed Harrigan came to Augustana out of shape...he must have been 15 pounds overweight as a freshman.  In Coach G's system, as far as I remember, he was not close to "varsity-ready."

To clarify, I am talking "varsity-ready" on a team good enough to win the CCIW (IWU and Augie tied with Carthage for the title that year, when Amelianovich and Harrigan were JV players)...not "varsity-ready" on a non-contender.  There is a big difference there.

[Titan Q]

Of course to add to your discussion....it also would depend on who is coaching WashU.  Have there been any D3 coaches who haven't started their own son as a freshman...and that always had the green light?   I'm just asking...I'm sure someone will look it up:)   

I am in the process of looking it up for you, Tom.  One thing I've learned is that Eric Bridges did not start for IWU in 1983-84...he was the 6th man.  Dennie started Gary Judson over Eric at one of the guard spots that year.

I have 973 more past D3 father/son situations to research.     

[Gregory Sager]

Greg, we will have to agree to disagree! You say "blocked"! I say "not good enough"! You say "wasn't granted the opportunity"! I say "wasn't good enough to take advantage"!

Po-tay-to, po-tah-to, to-may-to, to-mah-to, let's call the whole thing off!

Steve D. Can we both agree that he's a "lead guard"? I will agree that for what Carthage needs him to do he provides.  However, a leader in assist doesn't necessarily make a player a pg. It makes a player a good passer.  Wilt led the NBA in assist one year. Was he a pg?

Steve D. is not a "lead guard," whatever the heck that is. He's a point guard. He doesn't "provide" what Carthage needs from a PG, he excels at it.

Your isolated example of Chamberlain leading the NBA in assists half a century ago is absolutely meaningless. Point guards make assists. It's one of their primary duties: Ball distribution, setting up their teammates in a way that gives them the opportunity to get off a good shot. Take a look at this list of the top 75 assists-per-game leaders in D3 this past season. Sixty-five of them are point guards.

If you don't believe me, then ask any coach in the league what position Steve D. was born to play.

You disagree with me at the start of some of your arguments and by the time you're finished with it you're agreeing with me!

Hardly. You've used Steve D. as your example, which skews the discussion completely. There isn't anything at all typical about him.

You're starting to use terminology to classify players such as "World beater"and
"typical". A "world beater" as you said would play anywhere.  Wouldn't you agree a "world beater" also falls under my category as a "good enough/ready" player? So does a "typical" player depending on the team the "typical" player is on.

We're arguing over terms here, which will get us nowhere. Let me put it this way: A world-beater in my view is someone who comes into the league as a threat to win multiple-season berths on the All-CCIW team, a player who comes into college with the potential to average double figures in points right away and be acknowledged as one of the premier players in the league at his position. That's the kind of kid who is going to step ahead of his elders and move to the top of the depth chart. Will typical players do that? No.

(Of course, if a team is really, really bad, then a less gifted freshman might win a starting spot by sheer default. But there are seldom teams in this league that are so weak that a freshman who is below league standards for his position will win a starting spot.)

This will come as a surprise to readers of the board, but I will have to disagree with Greg on this.

This will come as an even bigger surprise to readers of the board, but I will concede the point to you. I saw Amelianovich and Harrigan once apiece as freshman JV players, when each in turn visited the NPU gym. Both had very strong performances in the crackerbox for their respective JV teams. You, of course, saw far more of Amelianovich than I did, and if you saw Harrigan twice then you saw twice as much of him as I did.

To clarify, I am talking "varsity-ready" on a team good enough to win the CCIW (IWU and Augie tied with Carthage for the title that year, when Amelianovich and Harrigan were JV players)...not "varsity-ready" on a non-contender.  There is a big difference there.

True, and I was using the term "varsity-ready" in a broader sense than referring merely to contender varsities, because even though Harrigan, Amelianovich, et. al., played on contenders the ultimate frame of reference here (dating back to the beginning of the discussion) has to encompass a team that is definitely not contender material right now in terms of returning players: North Central, home of the fabled 13-to-15 recruits for 2010-11.

[cardinalpride]

Steve D. is not a "lead guard," whatever the heck that is. He's a point guard. He doesn't "provide" what Carthage needs from a PG, he excels at it.

GS, if you are unsure of what I mean by "lead guard", then how do you know steve d. is not one? What I mean by "lead guard" is a player that usually leads the team in scoring and assists. A player that is effective with or off the ball! A guard that not only runs the offense but is the offense! He is probably responsible for 50% or more of his teams offense.

The reason I called steve d a "natural 2" is because I consider that a scoring position. IMO, steve is a scorer first and passer second in Carthage's offense.   His ability to attack and score creates all sorts of opportunity for teammates! I don't necessarily disagree with you. He is a do it all guard. I consider him the D3 version of D Wade minus the extreme athleticism obviously.

[AndOne]

North Central
* Mortell Flowers (6-4 F, Oak Park-River Forest H.S.) - ?   
* Landon Gamble (6-5 F/C, Lockport Township H.S.) - 9.2 ppg, 4.5 rpg
* Brad Hallstein (6-8 PF, Normal West H.S.) - 16.4 ppg, 7.1 rpg
* Adam LeTourneau (6-4 G, Batavia H.S.) - 6.9 ppg, 3.4 rpg, 2.3 apg
* Kyle Pembrook (6-2 SG, Neuqua Valley H.S.) - ?   
* Brock Pezanoski (6-3 SF, LaSalle-Peru H.S.) - 11.2 ppg, 7.4 rpg
* Charlie Rosenberg (6-6 F, Fremd H.S.) - 8.1 ppg   
* Tyler Smeltzly (5-10 PG, Riverdale H.S.) - 13.1 ppg, 2.8 rpg, 4.1 apg 

Kyle Pembrook---9.7 ppg, 3.4 rpg

[Gregory Sager]

GS, if you are unsure of what I mean by "lead guard", then how do you know steve d. is not one?

Because by saying that a lead guard isn't a point guard you're reinventing the term, giving it a meaning it doesn't normally have. I Googled the term "lead guard" (and included the word "basketball," so as to eliminate any football references), and here's what it revealed:

From the first page that came up on the Google search, basketball pages here and here and here and here and here used "lead guard" as a synonym for point guard. On the rare occasions that I've heard someone use the term, that's always been the way that it's been applied.

What I mean by "lead guard" is a player that usually leads the team in scoring and assists. A player that is effective with or off the ball! A guard that not only runs the offense but is the offense! He is probably responsible for 50% or more of his teams offense.

Now that I know what you're talking about, here's a bit of advice: Invent a new term for it. As you can see from the Google search I made (I invite you to do one yourself using "lead guard" and "basketball"), the standard basketball lexicon does not differentiate between a lead guard and a point guard, any more than it differentiates between a point guard and a floor general, or a one-guard, or a playmaker, etc.

There's never been any unwritten rule in basketball that says that a point guard can't also be a scorer. To wit:

Bob Cousy averaged 18.5 ppg during his NBA career.
Oscar Robertson* averaged 25.7 ppg during his NBA career.
Walt Frazier averaged 18.9 ppg during his NBA career.
Tiny Archibald averaged 18.8 ppg during his NBA career.
Magic Johnson* averaged 19.5 ppg during his NBA career.
John Stockton averaged 13.1 ppg during his NBA career.
Gary Payton averaged 16.3 ppg during his NBA career.
Jason Kidd has averaged 13.6 ppg during his NBA career.
Steve Nash has averaged 14.6 ppg during his NBA career.
Chauncey Billups has averaged 15.4 ppg during his NBA career.
Baron Davis has averaged 16.7 ppg during his NBA career.

*The Big O and Magic didn't always play PG, but it was their primary position.

And so on, and so forth.

The reason I called steve d a "natural 2" is because I consider that a scoring position. IMO, steve is a scorer first and passer second in Carthage's offense.   His ability to attack and score creates all sorts of opportunity for teammates! I don't necessarily disagree with you. He is a do it all guard. I consider him the D3 version of D Wade minus the extreme athleticism obviously.

No, a two-guard (shooting guard, off guard, etc.) is the backcourt player who does not bring the ball up the floor and set up the offense. Steve D. performs the traditional point guard role: He brings the ball up the floor, and he initiates the offensive set for that possession. If Carthage needs to reset during the possession, the ball goes back into his hands and he resets the offense.

Basketball positions aren't as cut-and-dried as they are in other sports such as football, hockey, baseball, and soccer; it's pretty common to see variables from one team to another, and certain positions have overlap in terms of their skill profiles. But there are some strong generalities that can be said about the five standard positions. It is always said of a PG that he brings the ball up the floor, sets the offense, and is the primary playmaker in terms of setting up teammates in good scoring position with his passes. He almost always leads the team in assists, and he usually (but not always) also leads the team in free-throw shooting and steals and is looked to by his teammates for on-court leadership. Steve D. fills all those roles (except leading in steals, as Max Cary was Carthage's 2009-10 steals leader). The fact that he is also the team's leading scorer and primary offensive threat doesn't disqualify him from being a point guard. It simply means that he's a point guard who is also a big-time scorer.

[Titan Q]

Article on Andrew Ziemnik's decision to attend IWU...

http://www.ledgersentinel.com/article.asp?a=8819

His decision came down to IWU, UW-Whitewater, and Carthage.

[Titan Q]

Unofficial list of CCIW recruits (5/17/10)...


Augustana
* Sam Calcagno (5-10 PG, Mayo H.S., Rochester, MN) - 11.2 ppg, 2.4 apg
* Sean Finn (6-2 PG, Assumption H.S., Davenport, IA) - 10.0 ppg, 2.5 rpg, 5.0 apg
* P.J. Killean (6-3 G, Maine South H.S.) - 10.6 ppg, 4.2 rpg, 4.1 apg
* Austin Lusson (6-1 G, Lyons Township) - 8.2 ppg, 2.4 apg
* Sam Savaglio (6-1 G, Tremper H.S., Kenosha, WI) - 12.9 ppg, 5.6 rpg, 3.0 apg
* Kevin Schlitter (6-8 C, Maine South H.S.) - 13.6 ppg, 7.1 rpg (JR season)


Carthage
* Nick Bauch (6-7 F/C, Rockford Boylan H.S.) - 11.4 ppg, 5.4 rpg
* Nick Kladis (6-0 SG, Hinsdale Central H.S.) - 18.7 ppg  
* Marlon Senior (6-4 SF, Niles North H.S.) - 14.3 ppg, 5.5 rpg   
* Scott Suchy (6-1 G, Genoa-Kingston H.S.) - 21.5 ppg, 6.2 rpg
* Kevin Sykes (6-2 G, Lincoln-Way North H.S.) - 8.9 ppg, 2.4 rpg  


Elmhurst
* Sam Ficker (6-0 G, Jerseyville H.S.) - 17.7 ppg, 3.8 rpg, 3.6 apg
* Andy LePard (6-7 C, Beecher H.S.) - ? 
* Raphael Oglesby (6-3 F, Prairie State JC) - 13.9 ppg, 6.3 rpg   
* Justin Phipps (6-5 C, Lyons Township H.S.) - 8.7 ppg, 7.4 rpg 
* Nick Sanford (6-5 F, Decatur St. Theresa H.S.) - 18.3 ppg, 9.6 rpg   


Illinois Wesleyan
* Nick Anderson (6-9 F/C, Edwardsville H.S.) - 3.0 ppg, 3.2 rpg
* Victor Davis (6-5 F, Galesburg H.S.) - 17.8 ppg, 12.7 rpg
* Eric Dortch (6-4 F, Wilbaham & Monson Academy, Evanston H.S. '09) - ?
* Joe LaTulip (5-10 PG, Prospect H.S.) - 15.5 ppg, 4.2 rpg, 3.0 apg
* Mike Mayberger (6-5 SF, St. Louis U. High, Mo.) - 12.1 ppg, 5.5 apg
* Kyle Miklasz (6-3 SG, Hersey H.S.) - 13.2 ppg   
* Andrew Ziemnik (6-4 F, Oswego H.S.) - 18.5 ppg, 11.3 rpg
* Brady Zimmer (6-4 G, Delavan H.S.) - 29.3 ppg, 8.7 rpg, 2.4 apg


Millikin
* Matt Merrigan (5-11 PG, Glenbrook North H.S.) - ?   


North Central
* Mortell Flowers (6-4 F, Oak Park-River Forest H.S.) - ?   
* Landon Gamble (6-5 F/C, Lockport Township H.S.) - 9.2 ppg, 4.5 rpg 
* Brad Hallstein (6-8 PF, Normal West H.S.) - 16.4 ppg, 7.1 rpg
* Adam LeTourneau (6-4 G, Batavia H.S.) - 6.9 ppg, 3.4 rpg, 2.3 apg
* Kyle Pembrook (6-2 SG, Neuqua Valley H.S.) - 9.7 ppg, 3.4 rpg   
* Brock Pezanoski (6-3 SF, LaSalle-Peru H.S.) - 11.2 ppg, 7.4 rpg
* Charlie Rosenberg (6-6 F, Fremd H.S.) - 8.1 ppg   
* Tyler Smeltzly (5-10 PG, Riverdale H.S.) - 13.1 ppg, 2.8 rpg, 4.1 apg 


North Park
* Josh McNaughton (5-11 PG, McHenry H.S.) - 11.1 ppg   


Wheaton
* Billy Berglund (6-3 F, Elkhorn H.S., NE) - 13.5 ppg, 9.7 rpg
* Jonathan DeMoss (6-4 SG, St. Charles North H.S. '09) - 10.0 ppg, 4.5 rpg, 3.8 apg ('08-09) 
* Mickey DeVries (6-7 F, Lansing Christian H.S., MI) - 19.1 ppg, 10.3 rpg
* Tad Fisher (6-0 G, San Romano Valley H.S., CA) - ? 
* Nathan Haynes (6-6 F, Normal Community H.S.)  - 11.0 ppg, 7.0 rpg
* Phillip James (6-7 F, Trinity School, NC) - ? 
* Kyle Krogh (6-4 F, Jenison H.S., MI) - 7.3 ppg, 4.2 rpg 
* Michael Kvam (6-3 G, Cherokee H.S., GA) - 21.2 ppg, 4.5 rpg, 3.7 apg 
* Spencer McCreary (6-3 G/F, Red Lion H.S., PA) - 22.4 ppg, 8.3 rpg, 4.2 apg
* Tyler Peters (6-3 G, Medina H.S., OH) - 15.5 ppg, 6.0 rpg, 5.5 apg 

[Gregory Sager]

North Park has four other newbies besides McNaughton that are already in the fold, and there's about a half-dozen other players who are either in the pipeline or close to making a decision to enroll at the Park, including both freshmen and transfers. But I'm not releasing any names until I have the green light to do so.

[CCIWFAN3]

These 2 are Wheaton's top recruits.  Nobody around here knows too much about them since they are from the east, but they are both very very good.  They both will probably see a lot of varsity minutes and maybe even starting positions. Michael Kvam's older brother plays for Wheaton. 

Michael Kvam (6-3 G, Cherokee H.S., GA) - 21.2 ppg, 4.5 rpg, 3.7 apg 
Spencer McCreary (6-3 G/F, Red Lion H.S., PA) - 22.4 ppg, 8.3 rpg, 4.2 apg

[Titan Q]

These 2 are Wheaton's top recruits.  Nobody around here knows too much about them since they are from the east, but they are both very very good.  They both will probably see a lot of varsity minutes and maybe even starting positions. Michael Kvam's older brother plays for Wheaton. 

Michael Kvam (6-3 G, Cherokee H.S., GA) - 21.2 ppg, 4.5 rpg, 3.7 apg 
Spencer McCreary (6-3 G/F, Red Lion H.S., PA) - 22.4 ppg, 8.3 rpg, 4.2 apg

Tom, how is Aaron's knee?  Will he be 100% by mid-November?

[CCIWFAN3]

That's the plan.  Had his 3rd surgery in 10 months on March 30th.  Dr. Cole scraped his quad tendon and some of his patella to jump start the tendonitis healing process.  He was planning on playing in Spain but 2 weeks after surgery he bumped it on the corner of a desk and split open the incision.  He's in Spain with the team but not playing.  When they get back he's scheduled to work with Chris Byers all summer.  You probably know Chris, he's good friends with Ron.  He's the best. 

[Dennis_Prikkel]

I thought I would check in since I haven't posted in a while.

I've got names for North Park, too - but I'm not telling.

and I have no other news to report and I'm not mad at anybody.

Have a great summer - see ya in the fall.

dgp

[sac]

These 2 are Wheaton's top recruits.  Nobody around here knows too much about them since they are from the east, but they are both very very good.  They both will probably see a lot of varsity minutes and maybe even starting positions. Michael Kvam's older brother plays for Wheaton. 

Michael Kvam (6-3 G, Cherokee H.S., GA) - 21.2 ppg, 4.5 rpg, 3.7 apg 
Spencer McCreary (6-3 G/F, Red Lion H.S., PA) - 22.4 ppg, 8.3 rpg, 4.2 apg

McCrary and McCreary ...........really?

[dansand]

An addition for Augie:

Curtis Allbaugh, Ferryville, WI (North Crawford HS)
6-0, 150, guard...2010 WBCA Division 4 1st team All-State...2010 Ridge & Valley Conference Player of the Year...Averaged 22.2 points, 7 rebounds, 4 assists, and 3 steals per game as a senior for a 21-4 conference championship team...52% field goal shooter...Three of the team's four losses came with Allbaugh out of the lineup...2009 Ridge & Valley Conference Co-Player of the Year...Averaged 14.6 ppg, 4.9 rpg and 5.1 apg for a 20-2 undefeated conference championship team as a junior.