MBB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

[Mr. Ypsi]

I'm bored.  I just went thru stats and all-CCIW selections again, so some more input on the question above.

From Augie, by all-conference selections the clear front-runner is John Laing (3 first team selections in the early 70s); is he the best?

Elmhurst appears to be a dead-heat in all-conference selections with Chris Martin and Brent Ruch having 3 first team picks apiece - the best?

For North Central the choice would be clear if that were the only criterion - Bill Warden was first team all four years in the early 50s, but I'm not sure even Dennis can remember him!  Is he the best ever at NCC?

And we might have a controversy at Carthage after all - I had forgotten that Rob Garnes was a four time first team all-conference player - Djurickovic or Garnes?

[AndOne]

I'm bored.  I just went thru stats and all-CCIW selections again, so some more input on the question above.

From Augie, by all-conference selections the clear front-runner is John Laing (3 first team selections in the early 70s); is he the best?

Elmhurst appears to be a dead-heat in all-conference selections with Chris Martin and Brent Ruch having 3 first team picks apiece - the best?

For North Central the choice would be clear if that were the only criterion - Bill Warden was first team all four years in the early 50s, but I'm not sure even Dennis can remember him!  Is he the best ever at NCC?

And we might have a controversy at Carthage after all - I had forgotten that Rob Garnes was a four time first team all-conference player - Djurickovic or Garnes?

I think Bill Warden is unquestionably the best player in NCC history. People at NC still talk about him in a reverent manner. As far as stats to back it up, Warden scored 2,249 points while playing between 1951 and 1955. Long before the 3 point shot.
He still holds 14 records at NCC. His 2,249 points are 589 points more than the player currently in 2nd place. For comparison lets look at current NCC player Derek Raridon last year's national D3Hoops freshman of the year who may well someday be an All-American. Last year Derek scored 532 points, the most by any freshman in NCC history. Should he duplicate that for 3 more years, he would still fall 121 points short of Warden's record. And lets not forget, 43 of Derek's 167 field goals were 3 pointers. Something that didn't exist when Warden played. Carrying things one step further compare Raridon's 167 field goals last year to the 254 Warden made during the 1952-53 season. 

As far as the best Carthage player, I think it needs to be pointed out that Garnes had a much better supporting cast than does Steve D. I'm thinking Garnes doesn't do what Steve has done if he had played the last 3 years at CC.

I love the question of Martin vs Ruch. I think it depends on what you like--Mr. Inside or Mr. Outside. I think Martin could do a few more things better overall that Ruch. Give Brent some healthy knees, and the story might have a different ending.

In answering the question of any team's greatest player let us not forget that, in recent times anyway, we have all seen some player's all-conference selection be a function of the success of his team rather than deserved recognition of his individual talent.

[usee]

I'm bored.  I just went thru stats and all-CCIW selections again, so some more input on the question above.

From Augie, by all-conference selections the clear front-runner is John Laing (3 first team selections in the early 70s); is he the best?

Elmhurst appears to be a dead-heat in all-conference selections with Chris Martin and Brent Ruch having 3 first team picks apiece - the best?

For North Central the choice would be clear if that were the only criterion - Bill Warden was first team all four years in the early 50s, but I'm not sure even Dennis can remember him!  Is he the best ever at NCC?

And we might have a controversy at Carthage after all - I had forgotten that Rob Garnes was a four time first team all-conference player - Djurickovic or Garnes?

I think Bill Warden is unquestionably the best player in NCC history. People at NC still talk about him in a reverent manner. As far as stats to back it up, Warden scored 2,249 points while playing between 1951 and 1955. Long before the 3 point shot.
He still holds 14 records at NCC. His 2,249 points are 589 points more than the player currently in 2nd place. For comparison lets look at current NCC player Derek Raridon last year's national D3Hoops freshman of the year who may well someday be an All-American. Last year Derek scored 532 points, the most by any freshman in NCC history. Should he duplicate that for 3 more years, he would still fall 121 points short of Warden's record. And lets not forget, 43 of Derek's 167 field goals were 3 pointers. Something that didn't exist when Warden played. Carrying things one step further compare Raridon's 167 field goals last year to the 254 Warden made during the 1952-53 season. 

As far as the best Carthage player, I think it needs to be pointed out that Garnes had a much better supporting cast than does Steve D. I'm thinking Garnes doesn't do what Steve has done if he had played the last 3 years at CC.

I love the question of Martin vs Ruch. I think it depends on what you like--Mr. Inside or Mr. Outside. I think Martin could do a few more things better overall that Ruch. Give Brent some healthy knees, and the story might have a different ending.

In answering the question of any team's greatest player let us not forget that, in recent times anyway, we have all seen some player's all-conference selection be a function of the success of his team rather than deserved recognition of his individual talent.

I guess that depends on what your (the collective "your", not the directive "your") philosphy on all conference selections represents. If it is indeed an honor bestowed upon the 5 best players or if it is an honor that combines the best players on the best teams. Viewing individual players over the course of season its easy to make a determination of who is the most talented but when you combine that talent with it's effect on that player's team record/performance you may have a different result. In many ways it's easiere for a CCIW coach to award the best team's  best player(s) with an all conference selection. I think most of the time that is the best choice but it isn't always the right choice. And this debate isn't limited to recent times, it is a long standing argument across sports and schools over generations of athletes.

[dansand]

I'm bored.  I just went thru stats and all-CCIW selections again, so some more input on the question above.

From Augie, by all-conference selections the clear front-runner is John Laing (3 first team selections in the early 70s); is he the best?

Elmhurst appears to be a dead-heat in all-conference selections with Chris Martin and Brent Ruch having 3 first team picks apiece - the best?

For North Central the choice would be clear if that were the only criterion - Bill Warden was first team all four years in the early 50s, but I'm not sure even Dennis can remember him!  Is he the best ever at NCC?

And we might have a controversy at Carthage after all - I had forgotten that Rob Garnes was a four time first team all-conference player - Djurickovic or Garnes?

Laing just barely pre-dates when I started following the program--and someone might disagree--but I think he would have to be the choice from Augie. He is the school's all-time leading scorer and rebounder, 10th in field goal percentage, 3-time 1st team All-CCIW, 2-time conference Player of the Year. He also led three CCIW championship teams including the last to go undefeated in the conference.

Just my opinion, but Djurickovic vs. Garnes is a no-brainer. Garnes was a terrific player, but you could make the argument (not that I am, necessarily) he wasn't even the best player on those Carthage teams (Antoine McDaniel). I think Stevie D is the best...and I'm not sure it's all that close.

FWIW,

Augie: Laing
Carthage: Djurickovic
Elmhurst: Ruch...obviously not the all-around player Martin was, but just such a tough matchup at the d3 level.
IWU: Sikma...obviously.
Millikin: Price...I defer to Mr. Ypsi's opinion.
NCC: Warden...ditto AndOne.
North Park: Harper...Thomas and Greer were great, but if there was one player that made those teams special, it was Harper.
Wheaton: Raymond...Needless to say, I never saw Mel Peterson play.

[Gregory Sager]

Elmhurst appears to be a dead-heat in all-conference selections with Chris Martin and Brent Ruch having 3 first team picks apiece - the best?

I love the question of Martin vs Ruch. I think it depends on what you like--Mr. Inside or Mr. Outside. I think Martin could do a few more things better overall that Ruch. Give Brent some healthy knees, and the story might have a different ending.

Elmhurst: Ruch...obviously not the all-around player Martin was, but just such a tough matchup at the d3 level.

All three of you are doing a disservice to Elmhurst by not mentioning a third very qualified candidate from the recent era: Ryan Knuppel. Knuppel is the only NABC All-American in Elmhurst history, the only d3hoops.com first-team All-American in Elmhurst history (Martin never got higher than third team, and Ruch topped out at second team), and the only Bluejay ever to win the CCIW MOP award. Knuppel made more treys than any player in CCIW history in league play, and he arguably made more big treys than just about any player I've ever seen. And he's the CCIW's all-time-leading free-throw shooter, to boot. Capping all that were his obvious leadership skills; he was the unquestioned leader of that 2000-01 CCIW title team, and the fact that it is the only Bluejays squad to garner a CCIW title in the 57 years that Elmhurst has competed in the league in men's basketball speaks volumes about Knuppel.

Also, although they were well before my time, Pat Lira from the '50s or Bill Simpson from the '70s might get the nod from some of the oldsters as Elmhurst's all-time-greatest player.

Having said all that, though, I'd probably give my vote to Chris Martin.

And we might have a controversy at Carthage after all - I had forgotten that Rob Garnes was a four time first team all-conference player - Djurickovic or Garnes?

As far as the best Carthage player, I think it needs to be pointed out that Garnes had a much better supporting cast than does Steve D. I'm thinking Garnes doesn't do what Steve has done if he had played the last 3 years at CC.

Just my opinion, but Djurickovic vs. Garnes is a no-brainer. Garnes was a terrific player, but you could make the argument (not that I am, necessarily) he wasn't even the best player on those Carthage teams (Antoine McDaniel). I think Stevie D is the best...and I'm not sure it's all that close.

I agree that the contest between Djurickovic and Garnes is a no-brainer, but I'm amused that none of you even mentioned Jason Wiertel. I guess that two thousand points just doesn't go as far as it used to. As was the case with Elmhurst, I'm sure that you could find some old-timers who would put in a word for Johnnie Butler from the late '60s and early '70s or for Dave Rosenbalm from the mid-'70s. But I think that Steve D.'s got this one wrapped up by now.

As for Wheaton, I'm a little reluctant to go against a guy (Mel Peterson) who was good enough to have a cup of coffee in the NBA and also play in the ABA for three seasons. Following a similar train of thought to Mark's case for Bill Warden, the 2,542 points Peterson tallied in the late '50s as a Crusader has to be respected as an absolutely filthy total for the pre-trey era. I take a back seat to no one in my respect for Kent Raymond's game, but, unless someone who saw both players tells me otherwise, I have to go with Peterson over Raymond.

I'd go with:

AC: John Laing
CC: Steve Djurickovic
EC: Chris Martin
IWU: Jack Sikma
MU: Jesse Price
NCC: Bill Warden
NPU: Michael Harper
WC: Mel Peterson

[dansand]

All three of you are doing a disservice to Elmhurst by not mentioning a third very qualified candidate from the recent era: Ryan Knuppel.

Guilty as charged...It was Chuck's fault, though, for not bringing him up in the first place. 

[AndOne]

I'll 2nd Dan's nomination.
I was just commenting on the players mentioned in the original post.

[Gregory Sager]

Here's a follow-up: Name your all-time starting five for each of the eight CCIW programs, hewing to the d3hoops.com All-American criterion that it has to be a starting five that could've actually played together (i.e., no starting fives that have three centers and two shooting guards, or anything like that).

[dansand]

Here's a follow-up: Name your all-time starting five for each of the eight CCIW programs, hewing to the d3hoops.com All-American criterion that it has to be a starting five that could've actually played together (i.e., no starting fives that have three centers and two shooting guards, or anything like that).

Oh...what the heck? I'll take a shot at Augie's:

5-John Laing (1969-73)
4-Bruce Hamming (1971-75)...played center as a jr. & sr., but started with Laing his so. year.
3-Bill Rapier (1977-81)...great all-around player...probably as good a defender as Augie's ever had.
2-Kirk Anderson (1989-93)...toughest call--edges out Carstens and Harrigan.
1-Max Artis (1978-82)...Played the point his first two years before moving off the ball.

[markerickson]

Paging Gregory Sager:

I anxiously await your report of the newbies.  In specific, I'm wondering if the really tall guy who attended games a year ago has decided to attend North Park or another school.  Freshman and transfer students reported to campus yesterday.  My son is located in Sohlberg, room 217.  In this connection, classmate Kevin "Buster" Anderson patrolled campus on bike during freshman move-in day.  He is a high-ranking member of the Chicago Police Department and moonlights as security for North Park.  Kevin shared the story to Fred of when I fell out of Sohlberg's second floor onto the concrete.  Ron=blame?  Nah.

I had lunch with former NP hoopster G. Wade Siefer (C '88?), your former roomie, on Monday.  Wade told me Coach MacDonald had a cancer scare (esophagus) a few years back, but had no follow up info.   Do you know anything?  Wade then shared a funny anecdote.  When Wade asked Coach why he wore his championship rings long after the championship seasons ended, he replied, "So they don't get stolen."  Wade did not practice this bit of wisdom, as we know.   

[kenoshamark]

Greg,

Thanks for getting me off the bench and participating on the board...I always enjoy the chance to reminisce about the Carthage past (and present). 

Another name that should always jump out when speaking of all-time greats at Carthage is Jack Lutz.  Jack was the all-time leader scorer for 30 plus years until Jason overtook him.   He was just passed for second place by Steve last year.   Jack was an incredible player and was drafted by the Bucks back in 1969 when they still had 10 plus rounds of the draft.   Unfortunately, there were two other players drafted by the Bucks that same year...Lew Alcindor and Bobby Dandridge.  If memory serves me right, Jack made it to the final cut.   A different year and he might have stuck.

Sticking to the criteria given, I would have to go with the following....and proud to say, I saw them all play (mostly as a young lad for a couple of them).

5 - Dave Rosenbalm
4 - Jason Wiertel
3 - Jack Lutz
2 - Antoine McDaniel
1 - Steve D.

I hate to leave off Johnie Butler, who was an MOP winner, and if it was a coin toss with him and Antoine, I wouldn't lose sleep over the winner.   Garnes and Barry Bennett would be the next two on my list after Butler.   

[havej]

Here's a follow-up: Name your all-time starting five for each of the eight CCIW programs, hewing to the d3hoops.com All-American criterion that it has to be a starting five that could've actually played together (i.e., no starting fives that have three centers and two shooting guards, or anything like that).

Oh...what the heck? I'll take a shot at Augie's:

5-John Laing (1969-73)
4-Bruce Hamming (1971-75)...played center as a jr. & sr., but started with Laing his so. year.
3-Bill Rapier (1977-81)...great all-around player...probably as good a defender as Augie's ever had.
2-Kirk Anderson (1989-93)...toughest call--edges out Carstens and Harrigan.
1-Billy Schneider (1978-82)...another tough call, just ahead of Drew Wessels and Drew Boster.

[Mr. Ypsi]

I'll take a stab at IWU, though reluctantly, since aside from the guys I saw in the late 60s and those of the last 6-8 years, I sometimes don't know which specific position they played.

At center, it is pretty obvious.  How many CCIW players other than Jack Sikma played in 7 NBA all-star games and have a ring?

At the two forward spots, Blaise Bugajski and/or Greg Yess would be mentioned, but I think they are Jack's back-ups at center.  If Blaise, in particular, would be a good 4, he's my man.  Otherwise:

At the 4, it's a toss-up to me between Sheldon Thompson and Zach Freeman.  I'm gonna go with Sheldon, because I want someone from my era ( ), and how often will an elite program have a 6'2" guy be the all-time second-leading rebounder!  (An argument for Zach: how often does d3hoops.com have a first-team all-American from a losing team?!)

At the 3, Bryan Crabtree narrowly edges Keelan Amelianovich - Bryan's stats are a bit better, and he WON in Salem.

At 2 (and I am unsure whether he WAS a two or a one, but with his scoring I feel pretty safe going two), definitely Korey Coon.  (The only real competition would be if I decided to call Keelan the two he started at - in the usual IWU playbook, the 2 and 3 are pretty interchangeable - but Coon missed an unbelievably low 43 out of 492 free throws.)

At point guard, I'm very tempted to go with an off-beat pick.  Steve Laub (I saw him my freshman year) was once described by Dennis Prickel (hardly a Titan fan) something to the effect of: he was the toughest s.o.b. I ever saw; he would not allow the Titans to lose.  It is hard to get higher praise for a pg.  On the other hand, both Dennie Bridges and Ron Rose by all accounts were superb pgs - then I don't even need a coach for my team!   But since he was a two-time first-team all-American, and is 60 assists ahead of 2nd place (and 145 above 3rd), I'll stick with the obvious: Adam Dauksas.

Q (or others), feel free to correct my probable errors!

[Mr. Ypsi]

And, sheesh, I never even mentioned 1970 CCIW-MOP Tom Gramkow (who could have been mayor of Bloomington after the game-winning shot in the last game ever against ISU), 1989 MOP Jeff Kuehl, 1991 MOP David Caldwell, 1994 MOP John Lipic, 1995 MOP Chris Simich, or 1998 MOP Brent Niebrugge.  Along with the others mentioned that didn't make my first string, no offense intended but I'd take our bench even-up against anyone else's starting five.

[Possible exception for North Park - we don't have 5 national titles! ]

[AndOne]

And I'll take a stab at NCC's all time top 5. Purely subjective based on an analysis of NCC records and player stats.

1--Alonzo Alexander (89-93) --#5 all time scorer, #4 FGs made, #2 FGs made 1 yr,
                                                T#1 FGs 1 game, #4 Career FG %, #3 FG % 1 yr,
                                                 All conference 3 times. CCIW MOP 1991-92.

2--Robert Brown (86-90)--#3 all time scorer, #5 Career FGs, #3 3 pt FGs,
                                          #2 3 pt % 1 yr, # 4 Career FT %, #5 FT % 1 yr,
                                          All conference twice. CCIW MOP 1889-90.

3--Bill Warden (51-55)-- Greatest player in NCC history. First team all-conference
                                      all 4 years. Leading all time scorer. Etc, etc, etc..........

4--Dan Walton (03-07)--#7 all time scorer, #6 career FGs made, #1 career FG %,
                                      #2 FG % 1 yr, #2 in career blocked shots. All conference
                                       twice.

5--Anthony Simmons (03-07)--#8 all time scorer, #5 career FG %, #6 FG % 1 yr,
                                                 #1 in career blocked shots, #4 in career assists.
                                                 All conference 3 times.

Simmons was usually introduced as a forward but often functioned in the middle in an offense that featured a virtually interchangeable 3, 4 , and 5.

Yulander Wells (98-01) gets the 3rd place vote at the guard position. He is 10th in career scoring, 9th in pts for 1 season, FIRST in career FT %, 3rd in career assists, and 5th in career steals.

Mike McFadden (81-84) is the #3 forward. He is 11th in career scoring, 9th in career
FGs made, 8th in career FG %, and is the 2nd basketball player elected to the NCC
All Sports Hall Of Fame.

Mike Moore (70-74) gets top reserve status in the post. He is NCC's 13th leading scorer, is 8th in career FGs made, and FIRST in single season and career rebounds,