MBB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

[dansand]

Great win for the Vikes tonight. Anybody who thought it would be easy is foolish. Titans didn't make it easy. They have a lot of weapons and were red-hot early (11 of their first 14 FGA and six of their first seven three-pointers) but eventually I think Augie was able to wear them down a bit (they only hit two of their last 14 3 attempts), particularly on the glass. RVB's second chance points statistic says it all. 17 offensive rebounds in the game. It got a little hairier than I would have liked once Augie got up by eight, but Kyle came through at the end. Greg's right. Sometimes good teams just find a way. Tonight was a good example.

Champions find a way to win games like that, Chuck. I can remember a night in '87 when Augie, which wasn't very good that year, jumped out to a 23-5 lead on North Park in the crackerbox. Some stocky 6'5 guy named Tony Taylor who was basically a flash-in-the-pan for Augie was simply unstoppable that night. NPC calmly and slowly chipped away at the lead and battled back to win, 88-81. It was the sort of gut-check performance that let everyone know that North Park really had something special that year, as the Vikes went on to win their fifth national title.

Most nights, you dominate. Some nights you scratch one out, even in your own gym. But champions find a way to do it.

I can't disagree on Tony Taylor being a flash in the pan. He had one good year on a bad team (19.3 ppg, 7.2 rpg, .578 fg% in 1986-87) before leaving school. I wouldn't call him stocky, though. He was pretty lean (He might be stocky today, though).

The pressure of an undefeated season is possibly starting to get to them. 11-19 from the FT line almost did them in coupled with IWU shooting 50% from the field for the game (approx. 67% in the first half).

I don't think the closeness of the game had much, if anything, to do with the pressure of an undefeated season "starting to get to them." I think it had a lot more to do with being 17-0, having a target on your back and consequently getting people's best shot, including a very good Wesleyan team with a lot of weapons. Just because they haven't lived up to their fans expectations doesn't mean they're not dangerous, especially when motivated.

In the end Augie's best player saved the day, as is so often the case.

You talkin' about Kyle Nelson, Bryant Voiles or Brian DeSimone? 'Cause right now you could make a case for any of them. All three were huge in the second half tonight.

I imagine there was a lot of green in the crowd tonight, as the Titan faithful frequently challenge the blue and gold in attendance for these weekday games in RI.

Nope. I'd say maybe 10% green in the crowd.

BTW, Nice article about Brian DeSimone in the Trib:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/highschool/ct-spt-0127-prep-college-catchup-20110126,0,1910790.story

[CCIWchamps]

Did I read this right: NCC is only 9-9, but 5-2 in CCIW play?  Who exactly are they playing outside of conference??

[CCIWchamps]

Wheaton 69
Millikin 55

Yes.  Good to see double digits in this win.

[augie77]

18-0 has a nice ring to it, but consensus appears to be that the conference as a whole is down this year.  Living in Michigan I never get to see the play, except for the occasional video feed.   For those of you who are closer to the situation, how would this Augie team stack up with other top teams from the CCIW in years past? 

[iwumichigander]

Actually Augie was pretty lucky to win tonight's game.It should not have been this close on their home court.  The pressure of an undefeated season is possibly starting to get to them. 11-19 from the FT line almost did them in coupled with IWU shooting 50% from the field for the game (approx. 67% in the first half). In the end Augie's best player saved the day, as is so often the case.

As for the conference race being over, I would say not so fast with 7 games to go. Augie has 5 of its last 7 games on the road, and NCC is only 2 games behind and gets Augie at home in the second half as do IWU and Wheaton. I predict Augie ends the conference season with 2 maybe 3 losses. Probably still good enough for 1st, but not a certainty. It's going to be a challenge for IWU, Wheaton and Carthage with 3 losses each to catch Augie, but at a minimum they appear to be the teams competing for the final two conference tourney spots.

Just thankful they pulled this one out, as the Titans always play Augie tough at Carver. I imagine there was a lot of green in the crowd tonight, as the Titan faithful frequently challenge the blue and gold in attendance for these weekday games in RI.

Augie certainly has control of the conference race.  Undefeated?  CCIW history says likely not but this Augie team has a very good opportunity.  Of interest, a bigger battle than I think some posters anticipated for spots 2-4; and, a spot in the conference tournament.

[Gregory Sager]

As for the conference race being over, I would say not so fast with 7 games to go. Augie has 5 of its last 7 games on the road, and NCC is only 2 games behind and gets Augie at home in the second half as do IWU and Wheaton. I predict Augie ends the conference season with 2 maybe 3 losses. Probably still good enough for 1st, but not a certainty. It's going to be a challenge for IWU, Wheaton and Carthage with 3 losses each to catch Augie, but at a minimum they appear to be the teams competing for the final two conference tourney spots.

As impressed as I am with North Central's performance to date, I don't see the Cards holding steady at the two-loss mark throughout the second round-robin, and I certainly can't imagine any of the three teams currently tied for third making up that much ground in the standings. Being three games back at the clubhouse turn is tantamount to a death sentence for anyone's conference championship hopes.

Yeah, Augie has a tough stretch of road games to end the regular season, but by that point it'll be pretty academic.

For stat lovers out there, here are some from the Augie - IWU game.

First 12 minutes - IWU was up 30-15.
                   IWU   Augie
2pt               70%     43% -- IWU was 7-10, Augie was 6-14
3pt              100%    20%  -- IWU was 4-4, Augie was 1-5
Total Reb        7         8
OR                 0         5

Last 28 minutes - Augie outscores IWU 54-37.
                   IWU   Augie
2pt               52%    56%
3pt               24%    36%
Total Reb       18       30
OR                 5        12

Also, by my count,

2nd chance points
Augie - 21
IWU   -  2  

These two posts illustrate why I thought that Augie was going to come back and win last night's game. It boils down to one word: Rebounding. Augie excels at it, and IWU does not do it well. The Titans were stuck with a lot of one-and-done possessions once their torrid shooting cooled off, and the Doggies got lots of second-chance opportunities, which not only allowed them extra opportunities to score, it also slowed the pace of the game down to their liking. If the scoring pace of the first twelve minutes had held true, the final score would've almost certainly been in the high 70s or the 80s, which is right in IWU's wheelhouse.

IWU is, as usual, a very tough team.  They always seem to rise to the occasion when playing us in Rock Island.  (They love to get an early lead on us at Carver!)  I am sure this was not the effort they gave in a 10 plus loss at North Park last Saturday.  They will be a tough out in the CCIW tourney, esp when Rosenberg returns!

There's no guarantee that Wesleyan will make the CCIW tournament. North Central does not appear to be going away, and the Titans are currently in a three-way tie for third with two other teams that were predicted to win CCIW tourney slots, Carthage and Wheaton. One of those four -- NCC, IWU, Carthage, or Wheaton -- is going to be left out in the cold come the end of February. My hunch here at the CCIW season's midpoint is that that unhappy team will be Wheaton when it's all said and done, but it's certainly quite feasible that it'll be Illinois Wesleyan instead that will be the unfortunate fifth wheel that gets shut out of the CCIW tourney.

I can't disagree on Tony Taylor being a flash in the pan. He had one good year on a bad team (19.3 ppg, 7.2 rpg, .578 fg% in 1986-87) before leaving school. I wouldn't call him stocky, though. He was pretty lean (He might be stocky today, though).

Really? I remember Taylor going about 6'5, 230. Maybe he wore a loose uniform.

The pressure of an undefeated season is possibly starting to get to them. 11-19 from the FT line almost did them in coupled with IWU shooting 50% from the field for the game (approx. 67% in the first half).

I don't think the closeness of the game had much, if anything, to do with the pressure of an undefeated season "starting to get to them." I think it had a lot more to do with being 17-0, having a target on your back and consequently getting people's best shot, including a very good Wesleyan team with a lot of weapons. Just because they haven't lived up to their fans expectations doesn't mean they're not dangerous, especially when motivated.

Plus, I wouldn't attribute the poor FT shooting of the Rock Islanders to nerves. Since the season started, all of you Augie fans at one time or another have griped about the team's inadequacies at the charity stripe. Although Augie's 11-19 performance is low even by the team's less-than-scintillating (.689) standards, the problem with being a poor free-throw-shooting team is that the cascade effect that often grips poor FT-shooting teams always lurks nearby, and an 11-19 night is never going to be an unusual occurrence. In fact, Augie's had two games in which it shot worse from the line than it did last night (@ Monmouth and @ MacMurray) and two others in which it shot an almost identical percentage (vs. UW-Whitewater and @ Chicago), so I highly doubt that the pressures of an undefeated season were forcing Grey's boys to clank free throws last night.

Did I read this right: NCC is only 9-9, but 5-2 in CCIW play?  Who exactly are they playing outside of conference??

It's not a case of who NCC played in November and December. It's more a case of who NCC is. The Cardinals are an extremely young team, with freshmen accounting for five of the eight players in the regular rotation (Landon Gamble, Jack Burchett, C.J. Goldthree, Chris Smith, and Brad Hallstein). Teams that devote that many minutes to multiple freshmen typically lose a bunch of games to teams with less talent, particularly early in the season.

If they played those eleven non-conference games over again now, I'd wager that the Cards would do a heckuva lot better than 4-7.

Wheaton 69
Millikin 55

Yes.  Good to see double digits in this win.

Remember how Mike Schauer called out Spencer Schultze, without actually citing him by name, for his poor post defense in an interview last week that was quoted in this room? Did you see what Kyle Taylor of Millikin, the lone big man on the Big Blue roster, did last night? He scored 23 points, one off of his career high.

Wheaton was never seriously threatened, but the Sonic Atmospheric Disturbance let Millikin hang around until the last five minutes of the game. There's likely something to be said for any team having a hard time getting up for the likes of MU, but that's still not a great outcome for a game played at King Arena. Workmanlike, perhaps, but not great.

18-0 has a nice ring to it, but consensus appears to be that the conference as a whole is down this year.  Living in Michigan I never get to see the play, except for the occasional video feed.   For those of you who are closer to the situation, how would this Augie team stack up with other top teams from the CCIW in years past?  

It's very hard to say, because Augie's style of play is so different that it doesn't necessarily translate well to comparisons with other programs. I'll say this, though: If basketball is all about imposing your will upon your opponent, then Augie compares very well to recent CCIW champions, indeed.

[iwumichigander]

Did I read this right: NCC is only 9-9, but 5-2 in CCIW play?  Who exactly are they playing outside of conference??

It's not a case of who NCC played in November and December. It's more a case of who NCC is. The Cardinals are an extremely young team, with freshmen accounting for five of the eight players in the regular rotation (Landon Gamble, Jack Burchett, C.J. Goldthree, Chris Smith, and Brad Hallstein). Teams that devote that many minutes to multiple freshmen typically lose a bunch of games to teams with less talent, particularly early in the season.

If they played those eleven non-conference games over again now, I'd wager that the Cards would do a heckuva lot better than 4-7.

Greg - Completely agree with you on this point about the Cards.  It is just very tough to judge a team loaded with underclassmen in early season schedule whether non-conference or conference.  Such is the case with this Cards team.  What we do know is Coach Raridon has demonstrated the ability to put young teams together and make them into contenders.  I expect them to cause some trouble for the other teams in the conference the rest of way out.

[dansand]

I can't disagree on Tony Taylor being a flash in the pan. He had one good year on a bad team (19.3 ppg, 7.2 rpg, .578 fg% in 1986-87) before leaving school. I wouldn't call him stocky, though. He was pretty lean (He might be stocky today, though).

Really? I remember Taylor going about 6'5, 230. Maybe he wore a loose uniform.

He was listed at 6'5", 200 pounds in the media guide and I think that was probably pretty accurate. You can see a couple pictures of him if you click on the "Augie Hoops History" link at the bottom of my posts. 1986-87 season.

[bopol]

A healthy Max Cary (and, given that he was out for 4 games, I have to wonder if he was hurt before that given his play) will make a big difference for Carthage as it'll give them 3 good ball handlers and be able to avoid the press and not worry about foul trouble (Malcom Kelly).

That, and the continued improved play of Nick Bauch makes me think that the best of Carthage this year is yet to come.

[veterancciwfan]

A must win for both teams at the Shirk Centier tonight. Regarding strength of league: I think it is down this year. Nothing compared to the 05/06 season when 4 teams were very good to great (IWU, Wheaton, NCC, and Elmhurst). Augie is a very good team and time will tell if they are a great team. I think their guard play is only average and their mediocre FT shooting might be a critical negative element in the D3 tournament.

[Gregory Sager]

North Park 63
Millikin 55

[Gregory Sager]

A very ugly win by the Park today in Decatur. The Vikings led throughout the second half but never pulled away, in large part due to poor shot selection and turnovers. The Vikings did make their free throws late in the game, and Clayton Cahill got hot for a stretch, but NPU will climb back on the bus wanting to forget about this one. Cahill led all scorers with 14, and Kendell Greer contributed 10. D.A. Robinson led NPU with 7 boards. Kyle Taylor had 13 and 7 to lead the Big  Blue.

Give a doughty though badly undermanned MU team credit for hanging around in this one and making a game of it -- they did a very nice job of picking apart North Park's 2-3 zone -- but NPU should've put the Big Blue away. If you're Paul Brenegan, you take the win but you don't enjoy the ride back to Chicago all that much.

[Gregory Sager]

A must win for both teams at the Shirk Centier tonight. Regarding strength of league: I think it is down this year. Nothing compared to the 05/06 season when 4 teams were very good to great (IWU, Wheaton, NCC, and Elmhurst).

No, the gold standard for the CCIW was two years ago; in 2008-09 the league went 73-19 (.793) in non-conference play. Sure, there were four very good teams at the top of the league in 2005-06, but the bottom four stunk; Wheaton, Carthage, Millikin, and NPU combined to go 17-27 in non-conference play, dragging the league as a whole down to a pedestrian (by recent CCIW standards) 63-34 (.649).

[titanhammer]

A must win for both teams at the Shirk Centier tonight. Regarding strength of league: I think it is down this year. Nothing compared to the 05/06 season when 4 teams were very good to great (IWU, Wheaton, NCC, and Elmhurst).

No, the gold standard for the CCIW was two years ago; in 2008-09 the league went 73-19 (.793) in non-conference play. Sure, there were four very good teams at the top of the league in 2005-06, but the bottom four stunk; Wheaton, Carthage, Millikin, and NPU combined to go 17-27 in non-conference play, dragging the league as a whole down to a pedestrian (by recent CCIW standards) 63-34 (.649).

Greg, I don't know how you can start your post with "No" when you don't even know what Lanny is intending by his statement.  If he is meaning how well the CCIW did in the post season, I would think that the '06 season was better than the '09.  If not for the perfect whistle that Adrian Adaire received, the Titans would have been national champions in '06.  The season you did mention was very good in the pre-conference, but does that mean the CCIW was that good...or they didn't play the best competition?  I don't think you get a great feeling for how the conference is on a national basis until the post season.  Just a lurker's opinion.

[Gregory Sager]

A must win for both teams at the Shirk Centier tonight. Regarding strength of league: I think it is down this year. Nothing compared to the 05/06 season when 4 teams were very good to great (IWU, Wheaton, NCC, and Elmhurst).

No, the gold standard for the CCIW was two years ago; in 2008-09 the league went 73-19 (.793) in non-conference play. Sure, there were four very good teams at the top of the league in 2005-06, but the bottom four stunk; Wheaton, Carthage, Millikin, and NPU combined to go 17-27 in non-conference play, dragging the league as a whole down to a pedestrian (by recent CCIW standards) 63-34 (.649).

Greg, I don't know how you can start your post with "No" when you don't even know what Lanny is intending by his statement.  If he is meaning how well the CCIW did in the post season, I would think that the '06 season was better than the '09.  If not for the perfect whistle that Adrian Adaire received, the Titans would have been national champions in '06.  The season you did mention was very good in the pre-conference, but does that mean the CCIW was that good...or they didn't play the best competition?  I don't think you get a great feeling for how the conference is on a national basis until the post season.  Just a lurker's opinion.

A few thoughts here in response, Mike:

1) Illinois Wesleyan lost to Virginia Wesleyan in the semifinals, not the finals. You have no idea how a theoretical IWU vs. Wittenberg championship game might've turned out, so you can't claim that IWU would've been the national champions if the Titans had beaten the Marlins.

2) Roughly half of the CCIW non-conference schedule remains the same from year to year, with minimal variation in overall difficulty level, in large part because there's such heavy interleague traffic between the CCIW and the NAthCon and MWC. If we really wanted to go into it in detail, I suppose that we could dissect the OWP of that season as opposed to other seasons -- once Pat reinstalls the past-seasons data for the various teams on d3hoops.com, that is. So the competitive baseline for 2005-06 is roughly the same as 2008-09's and for the other seasons surrounding those two (including this year's).

3) The post-season is a good test for a conference's relative strength. But the overall non-conference performance of a league is a better test, for two reasons. One, there's a lot more games involved, so the database is much bigger. Two, you don't only measure a league's strength by its top teams; you measure it from top to bottom. The bottom four is just as relevant to a league's overall strength as is its top four. It's not as though you get a mulligan for having really bad teams at the tail end of your standings. If you did, then the NCAC (Wooster and Wittenberg) and the MIAA (Hope and Calvin) would be considered to be much better conferences than they actually are, since the teams at the top are almost always successful on the national scene.

4) I know perfectly well what Lanny intended by his statement. He and I have had this argument several times before, both online and in person. And he's been wrong every time that we've had it.