MBB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

[Titan Q]

Regarding strength of league: I think it is down this year. Nothing compared to the 05/06 season when 4 teams were very good to great (IWU, Wheaton, NCC, and Elmhurst). 

Umm...might wanna include the team that won the league by two games among those very good/great teams. 

He must have confused Augustana and Wheaton -- Wheaton was not very good in 2005-06 (7-7 in the league).

[Titan Q]

A must win for both teams at the Shirk Centier tonight. Regarding strength of league: I think it is down this year. Nothing compared to the 05/06 season when 4 teams were very good to great (IWU, Wheaton, NCC, and Elmhurst).

No, the gold standard for the CCIW was two years ago; in 2008-09 the league went 73-19 (.793) in non-conference play. Sure, there were four very good teams at the top of the league in 2005-06, but the bottom four stunk; Wheaton, Carthage, Millikin, and NPU combined to go 17-27 in non-conference play, dragging the league as a whole down to a pedestrian (by recent CCIW standards) 63-34 (.649).

Greg, I don't know how you can start your post with "No" when you don't even know what Lanny is intending by his statement.  If he is meaning how well the CCIW did in the post season, I would think that the '06 season was better than the '09.  If not for the perfect whistle that Adrian Adaire received, the Titans would have been national champions in '06.  The season you did mention was very good in the pre-conference, but does that mean the CCIW was that good...or they didn't play the best competition?  I don't think you get a great feeling for how the conference is on a national basis until the post season.  Just a lurker's opinion.

A few thoughts here in response, Mike:

1) Illinois Wesleyan lost to Virginia Wesleyan in the semifinals, not the finals. You have no idea how a theoretical IWU vs. Wittenberg championship game might've turned out, so you can't claim that IWU would've been the national champions if the Titans had beaten the Marlins.

2) Roughly half of the CCIW non-conference schedule remains the same from year to year, with minimal variation in overall difficulty level, in large part because there's such heavy interleague traffic between the CCIW and the NAthCon and MWC. If we really wanted to go into it in detail, I suppose that we could dissect the OWP of that season as opposed to other seasons -- once Pat reinstalls the past-seasons data for the various teams on d3hoops.com, that is. So the competitive baseline for 2005-06 is roughly the same as 2008-09's and for the other seasons surrounding those two (including this year's).

3) The post-season is a good test for a conference's relative strength. But the overall non-conference performance of a league is a better test, for two reasons. One, there's a lot more games involved, so the database is much bigger. Two, you don't only measure a league's strength by its top teams; you measure it from top to bottom. The bottom four is just as relevant to a league's overall strength as is its top four. It's not as though you get a mulligan for having really bad teams at the tail end of your standings. If you did, then the NCAC (Wooster and Wittenberg) and the MIAA (Hope and Calvin) would be considered to be much better conferences than they actually are, since the teams at the top are almost always successful on the national scene.

4) I know perfectly well what Lanny intended by his statement. He and I have had this argument several times before, both online and in person. And he's been wrong every time that we've had it.

I am completely with Veteran Fan and Titan Hammer on this.  In gauging the strength of the league, I personally like to look at how good the top 4 teams are.  Just having 1 or 2 great games is certainly not enough for me to consider it a great year in the league...but having 4 is.  The elite leagues, in my opinion, are the ones that, every few years, can have one of those seasons with 3 legitimate Top 25-caliber teams and then maybe another in the Top 25 discussion.

In 2005-06 there were 4 legitimate Top 25 teams in the CCIW (Augustana, IWU, NCC, Elmhurst) -- and I believe, all 4 were legitimate Sweet 16-caliber teams.  I look at 2005-06 as one of the CCIW's outstanding seasons in recent memory.  IWU went to Salem and lost in the final minute of the national semi-final game to the eventual champ...but that incredibly talented IWU team (1st Team All-Americans Dauksas, Amelianovich, Freeman) went just 9-5 in CCIW play and lost to each of the other top teams.  For me, that is a great season in the league.

I like to look at the strength of the top 4 in evaluating how good the CCIW is.  I honestly am not impressed at all by gaudy non-conference records anymore, because in general, the CCIW's non-conference schedule has become extremely weak over the course of the last decade or so.  (Dramatically less # of games vs scholarship schools, and less marquis Division III matchups.  The in-region thing, quite frankly, has encouraged some terrible schedules.)  Now, I might look at a bad non-conference record as a sign the league is down (as I started doing with the CCIW in about mid-December or so this year)...but a .700+ record (or whatever % stands out as great) really doesn't mean that much to me anymore.  The CCIW should have a gaudy cumulative non-conference record against these schedules.

[dansand]

Regarding strength of league: I think it is down this year. Nothing compared to the 05/06 season when 4 teams were very good to great (IWU, Wheaton, NCC, and Elmhurst).  

Umm...might wanna include the team that won the league by two games among those very good/great teams.  

He must have confused Augustana and Wheaton -- Wheaton was not very good in 2005-06 (7-7 in the league).

Jeez Q, THAT doesn't exactly make me feel any better.

[Titan Q]

Jeez Q, THAT doesn't make me feel any better.

You know what I mean, Dan!  

The 2005-06 Augie team was tough.  Who was the PG that got hurt heading in the Sectional weekend?  That injury was absolutely enormous, as the Vikings didn't seem to have depth at the 1 that season.  I remember watching the Augustana/Puget Sound game @ Lawrence (Sweet 16 game)...wasn't Rick Harrigan playing some point?  Or was it another 2-guard?

[Hoosier Titan]

The 2005-06 Augie team was tough.  Who was the PG that got hurt heading in the Sectional weekend?  That injury was absolutely enormous, as the Vikings didn't seem to have depth at the 1 that season.  I remember watching the Augustana/Puget Sound game @ Lawrence (Sweet 16 game)...wasn't Rick Harrigan playing some point?  Or was it another 2-guard?

It was one of the Wessels--Drew?--and he had mono or something like that.  He was at the game, on the bench.  Everyone had to handle the ball a lot against UPS, and Harrigan (a great pure shooter) had to step in at point in a very difficult game. 

[dansand]

The 2005-06 Augie team was tough.  Who was the PG that got hurt heading in the Sectional weekend?  That injury was absolutely enormous, as the Vikings didn't seem to have depth at the 1 that season.  I remember watching the Augustana/Puget Sound game @ Lawrence (Sweet 16 game)...wasn't Rick Harrigan playing some point?  Or was it another 2-guard?

It was one of the Wessels--Drew?--and he had mono or something like that.  He was at the game, on the bench.  Everyone had to handle the ball a lot against UPS, and Harrigan (a great pure shooter) had to step in at point in a very difficult game.  

Yes, Drew Wessels had pneumonia. He made a go of it against UW-Stout for a couple minutes in the second round I think, but it was obvious he didn't have it. Actually, it was Jordan Delp, who had played very little that year, who stepped in and played great for the most part (huge game against BV in the first round), but he wasn't a true PG. I think Mike Kolze was the backup at that point.

[augiefan]

We Augie fans appreciate the rest of you conceding 1st place to the Vikings, but after last night's games I would say not so fast. NCC's +3 for road wins is the same as Augie's, and the Cardinals schedule is the most favorable of the contenders coming down the home stretch, while Augie's with 4 straight road games to end the regular season is arguably the toughest.

NCC has now completed their road schedule against all of the dangerous teams in the conference and only have Millikin and Elmhurst remaining on their road schedule, almost sure wins for NCC. Augie still has two competitive teams they have to face in Rock Island (NPU and Carthage), and their road games include IWU, Wheaton and NCC.
It's reasonable to expect that NCC could run the table, as they are tough to beat at home. This would include a win over Augie, meaning an Augie loss to anyone else results in a conference tie for 1st.

Of course, Augie is in control, but it is premature to annoint them as the regular season champs, given NCC's impressive improvement since the conference season started. And no I'm not overlooking IWU, which got a huge win last night. They are still in the race with Augie coming to Bloomimgton at the end of the conference season. I'm simply suggesting that the Augie games at NCC and IWU at season's end will have real significance, and that regular season CCIW champion will not be decided until thos two games are played.

[dansand]

Augie coach Grey Giovanine on Hoopsville tonight. Due up about 6:45 central time.

[AndOne]

We Augie fans appreciate the rest of you conceding 1st place to the Vikings, but after last night's games I would say not so fast. NCC's +3 for road wins is the same as Augie's, and the Cardinals schedule is the most favorable of the contenders coming down the home stretch, while Augie's with 4 straight road games to end the regular season is arguably the toughest.

NCC has now completed their road schedule against all of the dangerous teams in the conference and only have Millikin and Elmhurst remaining on their road schedule, almost sure wins for NCC. Augie still has two competitive teams they have to face in Rock Island (NPU and Carthage), and their road games include IWU, Wheaton and NCC.
It's reasonable to expect that NCC could run the table, as they are tough to beat at home. This would include a win over Augie, meaning an Augie loss to anyone else results in a conference tie for 1st.

Of course, Augie is in control, but it is premature to annoint them as the regular season champs, given NCC's impressive improvement since the conference season started. And no I'm not overlooking IWU, which got a huge win last night. They are still in the race with Augie coming to Bloomimgton at the end of the conference season. I'm simply suggesting that the Augie games at NCC and IWU at season's end will have real significance, and that regular season CCIW champion will not be decided until thos two games are played.

Augiefan--

Good point. Augie certainly is definitely stiil in the driver's seat with a 2 game lead in the conference standings. However, the mindset of the NCC Cardinals is that they have every intention and total belief that they can indeed run the table as you suggest is a definite possibility.
Additionally, as you aptly observed, North Central is done with the road portion of their schedule against the teams that were widely considered the top 4 at the beginning of the season as reflected both in the coaches' poll and through the postings of the vast majority of the board participants. In those games, the Cardinals gave a very good accounting of themselves, dropping a close one in OT vs Wesleyan in the 1st conference game of the season, triumphing over both Carthage and now Wheaton, and being soundly beaten only on their visit to Rock Island.
The Cards are currently sitting on 6 wins with their only remaining road games against the 2 distinctly least talented teams in the conference. They play at home against North Park and Carthage who they have already beaten on the road, against Wesleyan Wed, and in a season ending battle with Augie. While no game is a gimme, odds makers would certainly favor the Cardinals in upcoming games with Millikin, Elmhurst, North Park and, I believe, slightly over Carthage. I view the game vs Wesleyan as pretty even given the Cards narrow loss in Bloomington, coupled with their major improvement in the level of their play since then. Only against Augie would the Cards be considered the underdog. If the Vikings come to Naperville facing an 11-2 Cardinal team, anything will be possible in an epic battle. However, as the old saying goes, they must take things "one game at a time," and not look past anyone. Through their effort and growth as a cohesive team, the young Redbirds have put themselves in a position that few outside of Naperville envisioned for them at this point in the CCIW season. In their quest to achieve even greater heights, they must continue to display that effort, growth, and team play over the course of the remaining schedule.   

[AndOne]

Playing 5 freshmen and a sophomore transfer just back from the injured list among the 9 players who saw action for North Central in Wheaton last night, the predominately young Cardinals continued to fly among the CCIW league leaders following their 79-67 thumping of the Wheaton contingent. Their win completed a season sweep over the silenced Thunder.
The Cards were led by scintillating performances by freshman Landon Gamble and sophomore Derek Raridon who posted his best game of the year. Derek was the evening's point leader with 25 on 8/13 shooting, including 2/3 threes, and 7/9 from the line. He also pulled down 6 rebounds and dished out 3 assists. His off balance 3 pointer at 2:28 with the shot clock winding down was huge. Landon tallied 21 points on a brilliant 10 of 10 performance from the field. In a display of both power and finesse, he continually shredded the Thunder's interior "defense," using both his right and left hands, to complete his perfect evening. His perfection was largely responsible for the Cardinals whopping 36-16 advantage in points in the paint. Gamble's accuracy was the 2nd best single-game effort in North Central history, topped only by Anthony Simmons' magical 11 of 11 night, also against Wheaton, on 2/5/05. Additionally, Landon garnered a team high 9 rebounds and dished out 2 assists. Junior PG Kevin Gillespie directed the Cardinal attack that resulted in 19 assists. He added 12 points among which were his 4 of 4 FTs in the last 56 seconds to end any possibility of a Wheaton victory after a nice comeback earlier by the Thunder. Brian Evans chipped in with 7 points and a team high 5 assists.

While the North Central offense was rolling to the tune of shooting 60% for the evening, the Cards "Spider" defense threw an effective net over the home team's offerings, forcing the Thunder into several instances of both quick and poor shot shot selection. While the Thunder threw up 14 more shots that the visiting Cards (59 to 45), they hit only 21 (35.6%) baskets compared to NCC"s 27.   
North Central led by 11 at the half as Kevin Gillespie drained a 3 pointer as the shot clock expired with 6 seconds left. The Cards came out still hot and rather quickly built their lead to 19 with 16:46 remaining in the game. The Thunder then began a nice comeback over the course of the next approximately 12 minutes knocking the 19 point deficit down to 5 with 4:37 left. Chief architect of the comeback was Andrew Jahns who hit caught fire from 3 point land and threw a definite scare into the Cardinal fans.  Derek Raridon than scored the Cards next 6 points to push the lead back to 11, and the Cards hit 7 of 8 FTs, including 4 by Kevin Gillespie, down the stretch to seal the win.     
While Jahns hit on 6 of 11, including 4 of 7 on 3s, and totaled 22 points, the Cards effectively throttled the other 4 Thunder starters, forcing them into going a combined 9 for 37 for only a 24.3% success rate. Tyler Peters came off the bench for Wheaton to make all 3 of his shots, 2 of which came from beyond the arc. Despite Wheaton's Tim McCrary pulling down a game high 12 rebounds, the Cards also won the battle of the boards by a 35-30 margin.

[AndOne]

On a more serious and somber note------

While the Cardinals naturally enjoyed last night's victory, the entire North Central  basketball family's spirits are dampened and their hearts saddened over the loss of former star and current graduate assistant coach Chris Drennan's mom on Thursday afternoon.
Mrs. Drennan was a wonderful lady, and we are heartened by the fact she was able to attend the game 2 weeks ago last night. Our thoughts and prayers are with Chris and the entire Drennan family in this most difficult of times. 

[sac]

Offensive and Defensive Efficiency numbers per 100 possessions


Offense
1. Carthage          113.3
2. Ill Wesleyan     108.9
3. Augustana        104.2
4. North Park        102.3
5. North Central    102.1
6. Wheaton          99.3
7. Elmhurst           96.3
8. Millikin               82.2


Defense
1. Augustana        89.3
2. Wheaton           99.3
3. North Central    99.8
4. Ill. Wesleyan     99.9
5. Carthage          102.0
6. North Park        102.4
7. Elmhurst           103.7
8. Millikin               108.3


Combine offense + (200 - defense)

1. Augustana        214.9
2. Carthage           211.3
3. Ill. Wesleyan     209.0
4. North Central    202.3
5. Wheaton           200
6. North Park        199.9
7. Elmhurst           192.6
8. Millikin               173.9


--IWU plays at the fastest pace in the league but probably not by a significant amount, everyone but Millikin plays games within 10 possessions of IWU.  A remarkeby similarly paced league.

--Augustana's defense probably ranks among the best in D3, for an unbeaten team the offensive eff is pretty low

--Judgeing from these numbers, Carthage has probably underperformed in league play

--As you probably all suspected, these number confirm Millikin is a very bad basketball team right now.  Their offensive eff is atrocious and might be the worst I've ever seen at this level.

[Titan Q]

Thank you for taking the time to do that, sac.  Great stuff.

[CCIWchamps]

Playing 5 freshmen and a sophomore transfer just back from the injured list among the 9 players who saw action for North Central in Wheaton last night, the predominately young Cardinals continued to fly among the CCIW league leaders following their 79-67 thumping of the Wheaton contingent. Their win completed a season sweep over the silenced Thunder.
The Cards were led by scintillating performances by freshman Landon Gamble and sophomore Derek Raridon who posted his best game of the year. Derek was the evening's point leader with 25 on 8/13 shooting, including 2/3 threes, and 7/9 from the line. He also pulled down 6 rebounds and dished out 3 assists. His off balance 3 pointer at 2:28 with the shot clock winding down was huge. Landon tallied 21 points on a brilliant 10 of 10 performance from the field. In a display of both power and finesse, he continually shredded the Thunder's interior "defense," using both his right and left hands, to complete his perfect evening. His perfection was largely responsible for the Cardinals whopping 36-16 advantage in points in the paint. Gamble's accuracy was the 2nd best single-game effort in North Central history, topped only by Anthony Simmons' magical 11 of 11 night, also against Wheaton, on 2/5/05.

This has to be one of the most sickeningly-sweet homer recaps of a game that I've ever read.  If they gave a pulitzer for D3Board entries, this would win.

[CCIWchamps]

Playing 5 freshmen and a sophomore transfer just back from the injured list among the 9 players who saw action for North Central in Wheaton last night, the predominately young Cardinals continued to fly among the CCIW league leaders following their 79-67 thumping of the Wheaton contingent. Their win completed a season sweep over the silenced Thunder.
The Cards were led by scintillating performances by freshman Landon Gamble and sophomore Derek Raridon who posted his best game of the year. Derek was the evening's point leader with 25 on 8/13 shooting, including 2/3 threes, and 7/9 from the line. He also pulled down 6 rebounds and dished out 3 assists. His off balance 3 pointer at 2:28 with the shot clock winding down was huge. Landon tallied 21 points on a brilliant 10 of 10 performance from the field. In a display of both power and finesse, he continually shredded the Thunder's interior "defense," using both his right and left hands, to complete his perfect evening. His perfection was largely responsible for the Cardinals whopping 36-16 advantage in points in the paint. Gamble's accuracy was the 2nd best single-game effort in North Central history, topped only by Anthony Simmons' magical 11 of 11 night, also against Wheaton, on 2/5/05.

This has to be one of the most sickeningly-sweet homer recaps of a game that I've ever read.  If they gave a pulitzer for D3Board entries, this would win.

That said, North Central straight up beat Wheaton last night.  The Cardinals' shots kept falling, and Wheaton's kept finding a way to miss their mark.  Wheaton had several good defensive possessions during their 2nd half comeback to get back in the game.  However, they also had a couple possessions of great D only to have NCC hit a 3 with 0 to 3 seconds left on the shot clock.  The one at 2:28 was truly the back-breaker, whether or not he heaved it up with his eyes closed while praying.