MBB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

[Gregory Sager]

OK, my fellow board members, here goes a post made with major trepidation.  I believe it is time for a discussion as to what this year's CCIW results reflect on the quality of the coaching in our favorite basketball conference.  Having absolutely been pummeled when I raised this subject several years ago by several of you whom I truly respect for your D3 knowledge and passion for various teams, I want to open a thread on what I think is a great year to really judge the level of coaching talent in the conference.  My observation is Augustana's Grey Giovanine is hands down the best of class.  Tonight he is probably going to win his 300th victory and his team has an excellent chance to be #1 in the country on Monday.  Todd Raridon is really on the verge of proving his ability if he can coach the North Central Cardinals into a conference tourney position with 5 freshmen players making significant contributions.  After watching Elmhurst almost upset Illinois Wesleyan I have to say Mark Scherer is a competent leader who has taken his eye off the never-ending task of recruiting.  He totally out-coached Ron Rose in the final ten minutes to give his team a chance to upset a team that should have won by fifteeen.  Ron Rose, well in my opinion, he's the major disappointment this year.  A coach with such talent, a team that made it to the Elite Eight last year, is scrambling to make the conference tourney looks lost out there.  Believe me, I want to like the man, but his player rotation decisions, IMHO, are so detrimental to long term success he loses much respect among his players.  Next is Bosko Djurickovic, an absolute hero for many of you D3 afficianados.  My take is he is someone who has lost the necessary passion  to be successful.  Yes, he might have three NCAA rings but in the twelve years I have followed Carthage basketball he's had two good years.  Now I know I have left out three coaches but, IMHO, all three are too early in their CCIW career to make a judgement.  I look forward to hearing your thoughts.                      

I have a few of them. Surprised?

First of all, I echo TitansIWU: Very brave post, coebb. Kudos for sticking your neck out like this.

Second, since Mark Erickson, Bob Quillman, and bopol have more than adequately addressed your criticism of Bosko as having "lost the necessary passion to be successful," I'll just add that you seem to be confusing effort with results. This is not an easy league to dominate; just because Bosko's teams dominated the early part of the last decade didn't mean that Carthage would just keep merrily rolling along. How often does a team get a Wiertel, a McDaniel, a Garnes, a Powell, and a Ktistou all at the same time? Most of coaching is recruiting, and a lot of recruiting comes down to sheer luck. You can know your product and how to sell it to a "T", you can identify the exact types of players that your program needs, and you can spend each and every off-night in a high school gym somewhere -- but in the end, it's all going to come down to the kid and his parent(s) being willing to cough up a lot of money to attend your school, and that's just not in your hands.

Third, Mark Scherer never took his eye off of anything. He was never Elmhurst's primary recruiter. Everyone to whom I've ever spoken who has inside connections to the Bluejays program has stated that Scherer is not really much of a hands-on recruiter. Filling the roster with talented players year after year had been John Baines's job; Baines deserves a tremendous amount of credit for the success that the Elmhurst program has enjoyed over the past decade-plus. I think that Scherer can coach with anybody in this league in terms of game planning, game management, and teaching. He's an ace in those departments. But he's at the mercy of his assistants when it comes to actually getting the talent on campus in the first place.

[Gregory Sager]

Ok there must be a NP hacker (or an overworked sid)who subbed the north park soccer win over wheaton for tonights basketball box score.
It was for the november 6 overtime win 3-2 for the vikings.  Clicked on the boxscore for on Wheaton's site and that's what came up.  

That is awesome

I didn't see it -- I didn't go to the NPU website for a couple of days after Saturday -- but if it did show the CCIW soccer championship score, I'm taking credit for it. After the loss on Saturday night, I said to just about everyone I saw (including North Park SID Kevin Shepke) that I was going to go watch the CCIW soccer title game again to cheer myself up.

Losing to Wheaton makes me angry in about a hundred different ways, especially when it's a dumb-mistakes kinda loss by NPU. But that soccer game never fails to lift me out of even the darkest mood.

[Gregory Sager]

I'm always left confused after going to a Wheaton at North Park game.  What point is the student section trying to make when they chant "Daddy's money!".  Is it that as North Park students they pay for their own education and Wheaton students have parents to take care of the bills?   Or are they claiming that Wheaton costs more in general and all Wheaton students are rich? Or is it something else?

I watched the North Park video stream and also remember that -- I think it was while Tim McCrary was shooting FT's.  The color commentator, Mr. Sager, referred to it as "a socioeconomic statement."  (He said that light-heartedly, FYI.)

So I guess North Park students are slummin it.

Over the past few years, "Daddy's money" has become one of three standard-issue NPU student taunts whenever there's a Wheaton team that's providing the opposition. You also hear it at NPU vs. Wheaton soccer matches, which tend to draw even larger crowds in terms of North Park students. Given that Wheaton now allows dancing -- Wheaton's prohibition of dancing always provided the source material for most anti-Wheaton mockery by Parkers in the past -- the North Park student section has had to seek other reasons to wag their fingers at Wheaton.

As Bob mentioned me saying on the air Saturday, the "Daddy's money" taunt is a socioeconomic statement. As you guessed, it's an implication that NPU students work hard to put themselves through school, whereas Wheaties are a bunch of spoiled rich kids whose parents dole out the tuition and room & board money. It's more than a bit ridiculous, seeing as how quite a few of the NPU students who are participating in that taunt are upper-middle-class themselves. But such are the desperate measures forced upon North Park by Wheaton's lifting of the dancing ban. (However, I think that the Carlson Crazies make it a point to direct this particular cheer at Tim McCrary, because a Wilmette native and New Trier graduate such as McCrary is highly likely to have been born with a silver spoon in his mouth.)

The second taunt currently in vogue, "Multicultural!", has a bit more juice to it, given that NPU is quite a bit more diverse than is Wheaton. In fact, North Park has made its diversity one of its calling cards; the school's current advertising slogan (as seen on CTA bus and el advertisements) is, "Distinctively Christian, intentionally urban, and purposefully multicultural." You typically hear this one when a North Park soccer player from Sweden, or an NPU African-American basketball player, makes a good play against a Wheaton team. As I said, it's got a bit more legitimacy to it than does "Daddy's money", but it loses some impact when you consider how many of the kids behind that taunt are Covies of Swedish-American extraction who were wearing royal-blue-and-gold "North Park Class of 20??" bibs when they were fed as babies back in Minnesota or Massachusetts or Kansas.

The third cheer, "We love Jesus, yes, we do / We love Jesus, how about you?" is one that I really don't care for, as I think it's in bad taste and it's a divisive statement in light of the fact that North Park and Wheaton share a common faith. But I'm really Mr. Glass House when it comes to criticizing North Park student-section cheers and taunts, as anyone who watched North Park basketball games back in the '80s can tell you.

[AndOne]

Well like always "nothing that makes sense EVER gets done at Elmhurst."  Don't count on the website.  It is rarely ever accurate.

I think NPU has a very good shot tonight.

I think NPU will pull off an upset tonight.

I do too and don't view  it as an upset.

79jaybird & Titans IWU----

Could you please explain the reasoning behind your feelings about the result of tonight's NPU at NCC game?

79jaybird--

Define upset. Given the fact NCC is 7-2 so far in CCIW conference play as opposed to NPU's 3-7 record, coupled with the fact that NCC defeated NPU by 12 at NPU earlier, would a NPU victory not be considered an "upset"--at least a mild one?

Given the generally highly competitive nature of the CCIW, which we have just about all commented on at one time or another, perhaps few game results could be considered an "upset." I know Carthage fans will disagree, but I think think Carthage victory over Augie the other night was an upset. Also, it seems a Millikin win against anyone at this time could be considered an upset. 

2nd place NCC has to be considered the league's biggest "surprise" so far by almost everyone other than the NCC coaches, players, and fans. However, no remaining game can be considered a gimme, and, dare I say, NCC is likely widely considered the underdog in at least a couple of their remaining games.
Should they fail to give maximum effort in either the physical or mental aspect of a game in any of their remaining contests, they can easily be subject to defeat---whether or not you might consider it an "upset."

[79jaybird]

ANDONE- I was referring to the NPU/Elmhurst game as NPU beating EC would not be an upset.  Not today's NPU/NC game.

Frankly Elmhurst has a lot of structural problems mostly off the court, not just on it.

[Gregory Sager]

I would love to have IWU get video streaming of IWU men's and women's basketball games up and running.  I too enjoyed the Elmhurst video link and commentators.  Perhaps something that Student Senate funding and WESN should pursue.  They could also stream productions from the Music and Drama schools as well . . . why not?  Any video streaming of football games in the CCIW?

I'm not sure if any do at the moment. I've never really investigated it, as I'm a lot less likely to muster up the interest in seeing, say, an Augustana @ Carthage football game than I am an Augustana @ Carthage basketball game. But there doesn't seem to be any commentary on the CCIW football board from posters who don't live within traveling distance of the league about their having watched online games, so I'm guessing that nobody webcasts CCIW football games. If my guess is wrong, then it's likely either Wheaton or Carthage, or both, that offer it. North Park is probably going to add football to the menu of webcasted sports next season, alongside the currently-offered home men's soccer matches and home men's basketball games. So, for the comedians among you, go ahead and take this opportunity on the CCIW basketball board to crack wise about NPU football here.

[Gregory Sager]

I second the motion that IWU start webcasting games!

A thought I have had is that it would be great if there was a "standard" for the individual broadcasts.

Some of the video is superior to others, I am not a technical wizard, but it seems that studying the success of the schools who do it well would be helpful. I think Elmhurst does a great job with video, I also remember Wash U. has a nice quality full court shot.

It would be a real feather in the cap of the league if they took on the challenge of getting some sort of standardization and quality equalization effort.

If it meant I had to pay a fee for the right to view the games live and then archived, I would gladly pay. Sometimes when watching a webcast, I see there are 50 or so viewers watching. Maybe the limited need is why it is not being done. Everything has a cost, but it seems it would be a great project for the school's AV departments or classes to get this done.

One portal to view all the games, the live stats and listen to the individual school broadcasters. Sometimes when multiple games are going on, I have so many browsers open. it would be cool to click around on one site and watch in some sort of split screen mode.

I know its a lot to ask, but I dream of a day when this happens!

Since the league is constantly trying to hold down costs -- remember last season's switch to Saturday women's/men's doubleheaders? -- it's highly doubtful that the CCIW is suddenly going to spring for an all-games webcast package like the MWC's deal with Penn Atlantic. I would expect broadcasting of CCIW sports events, be it via radio, video webcasts, or local-access television, to continue to be a school-by-school endeavor for the foreseeable future.

Of course, I'd love to be proved wrong. Then, Rob and I could blame any production glitches we might be having on the air on CCIW commissioner Chris Martin.

[AndOne]

ANDONE- I was referring to the NPU/Elmhurst game as NPU beating EC would not be an upset.  Not today's NPU/NC game.

Frankly Elmhurst has a lot of structural problems mostly off the court, not just on it.

OK--I was keying on the word "tonight." Sorry.

"Structural" problems off the court? Intriguing! 
Inquiring minds would like to know more.   

[Titan Q]

I'm not sure if any do at the moment. I've never really investigated it, as I'm a lot less likely to muster up the interest in seeing, say, an Augustana @ Carthage football game than I am an Augustana @ Carthage basketball game. But there doesn't seem to be any commentary on the CCIW football board from posters who don't live within traveling distance of the league about their having watched online games, so I'm guessing that nobody webcasts CCIW football games. If my guess is wrong, then it's likely either Wheaton or Carthage, or both, that offer it. North Park is probably going to add football to the menu of webcasted sports next season, alongside the currently-offered home men's soccer matches and home men's basketball games. So, for the comedians among you, go ahead and take this opportunity on the CCIW basketball board to crack wise about NPU football here.

Wheaton streams WETN football broadcasts.

[Mr. Ypsi]

I would love to have IWU get video streaming of IWU men's and women's basketball games up and running.  I too enjoyed the Elmhurst video link and commentators.  Perhaps something that Student Senate funding and WESN should pursue.  They could also stream productions from the Music and Drama schools as well . . . why not?  Any video streaming of football games in the CCIW?

I'm not sure if any do at the moment. I've never really investigated it, as I'm a lot less likely to muster up the interest in seeing, say, an Augustana @ Carthage football game than I am an Augustana @ Carthage basketball game. But there doesn't seem to be any commentary on the CCIW football board from posters who don't live within traveling distance of the league about their having watched online games, so I'm guessing that nobody webcasts CCIW football games. If my guess is wrong, then it's likely either Wheaton or Carthage, or both, that offer it. North Park is probably going to add football to the menu of webcasted sports next season, alongside the currently-offered home men's soccer matches and home men's basketball games. So, for the comedians among you, go ahead and take this opportunity on the CCIW basketball board to crack wise about NPU football here.

Only because you insisted: is anyone masochistic (or sadistic, depending on fanship) enough to watch a North Park football game online?

More seriously, I really do hope they break through soon; NPU football and the current state of Millikin men's basketball are not good for anyone in the conference (least of all, obviously, NPU or Millikin).  I was at the IWU homecoming game against NPU, where a 14-0 lead went to 28-0 in the last two minutes of the first half, allowing me to go the the women's soccer game.  As I left the stadium I talked with a gate attendant, thanking IWU for allowing me to safely go to said soccer game.  He responded "NPU lost the game when they stepped off the bus."  I found the comment a bit rude, but sadly true.

[TitansIWU]

Well like always "nothing that makes sense EVER gets done at Elmhurst."  Don't count on the website.  It is rarely ever accurate.

I think NPU has a very good shot tonight.

I think NPU will pull off an upset tonight.

I do too and don't view  it as an upset.

79jaybird & Titans IWU----

Could you please explain the reasoning behind your feelings about the result of tonight's NPU at NCC game?

79jaybird--

Define upset. Given the fact NCC is 7-2 so far in CCIW conference play as opposed to NPU's 3-7 record, coupled with the fact that NCC defeated NPU by 12 at NPU earlier, would a NPU victory not be considered an "upset"--at least a mild one?

Given the generally highly competitive nature of the CCIW, which we have just about all commented on at one time or another, perhaps few game results could be considered an "upset." I know Carthage fans will disagree, but I think think Carthage victory over Augie the other night was an upset. Also, it seems a Millikin win against anyone at this time could be considered an upset. 

2nd place NCC has to be considered the league's biggest "surprise" so far by almost everyone other than the NCC coaches, players, and fans. However, no remaining game can be considered a gimme, and, dare I say, NCC is likely widely considered the underdog in at least a couple of their remaining games.
Should they fail to give maximum effort in either the physical or mental aspect of a game in any of their remaining contests, they can easily be subject to defeat---whether or not you might consider it an "upset."

North Park is capable of beating NCC, and my feelings might be jaded by wanting to see it happen which would be good for IWU.

I have seen North Park play a few times this year, have read all of Mr. Sager's comments, and looked at the box scores of their other games. It seems to me that when this team is functioning as a unit, they play rather well for 5 minute bursts and sometimes more. There will come a night whether it is this year or next that they all put the "team" together and are able to convincingly beat a team like NCC which is young and may not be expecting it as much as a group of seniors who have seen what can happen in the CCIW for four years.

It is not an attempt to diminish the talent of NCC, they are a really good group. I just think North Park will put it together and when they do, they will be really hard to deal with.

And I hope it is tonight!

[AndOne]

Your hopefulness is understandable.

[TitansIWU]

Since the league is constantly trying to hold down costs -- remember last season's switch to Saturday women's/men's doubleheaders? -- it's highly doubtful that the CCIW is suddenly going to spring for an all-games webcast package like the MWC's deal with Penn Atlantic. I would expect broadcasting of CCIW sports events, be it via radio, video webcasts, or local-access television, to continue to be a school-by-school endeavor for the foreseeable future.

Of course, I'd love to be proved wrong. Then, Rob and I could blame any production glitches we might be having on the air on CCIW commissioner Chris Martin.


Your point is well taken, and I admit we are in a time where every group, league, business, household is trying to control expenses, especially new ones.

I am not a broadcaster, or a webcaster, or any kind of caster, but the total cost to stream the game just can not be that much. I was thinking the individual schools would still be in charge utilizing student and other "love of the game" volunteer labor, but the league would put together some "best practices."

Camera cost, some bandwidth, some hosting costs, maybe a few other incidentals I haven't thought of.

Seems like if one school does it well, the same concept, equipment and everything else can be used as the standard. This year the league writes the new policy, next year it helps iron out the bugs, the following year they encourage the standards to be followed. And in the 4th year, they require it.

4 years from now, and that is moving slower than necessary IMO, this vision of a "CCIW PORTAL OF HOOPS EXCELLENCE" can be realized.

Maybe under a better name.

If it were all under one umbrella perhaps there would be corporate sponsors who would get involved to help defer costs.

[TitansIWU]

Sorry, not "defer costs", "defray costs" is what I meant.

My fingers got ahead of my brain, which is often the case!

[Gregory Sager]

I'm not sure if any do at the moment. I've never really investigated it, as I'm a lot less likely to muster up the interest in seeing, say, an Augustana @ Carthage football game than I am an Augustana @ Carthage basketball game. But there doesn't seem to be any commentary on the CCIW football board from posters who don't live within traveling distance of the league about their having watched online games, so I'm guessing that nobody webcasts CCIW football games. If my guess is wrong, then it's likely either Wheaton or Carthage, or both, that offer it. North Park is probably going to add football to the menu of webcasted sports next season, alongside the currently-offered home men's soccer matches and home men's basketball games. So, for the comedians among you, go ahead and take this opportunity on the CCIW basketball board to crack wise about NPU football here.

Wheaton streams WETN football broadcasts.

Thanks, Bob. That makes sense, as Wheaton also broadcasts men's soccer matches. When you have your own in-house broadcasting network, it makes sense to use it for football games. Not that I'd ever watch a Wheaton football game, of course. Anything I need to know about a Wheaton football game I can read from Mugsy or USee.

I would love to have IWU get video streaming of IWU men's and women's basketball games up and running.  I too enjoyed the Elmhurst video link and commentators.  Perhaps something that Student Senate funding and WESN should pursue.  They could also stream productions from the Music and Drama schools as well . . . why not?  Any video streaming of football games in the CCIW?

I'm not sure if any do at the moment. I've never really investigated it, as I'm a lot less likely to muster up the interest in seeing, say, an Augustana @ Carthage football game than I am an Augustana @ Carthage basketball game. But there doesn't seem to be any commentary on the CCIW football board from posters who don't live within traveling distance of the league about their having watched online games, so I'm guessing that nobody webcasts CCIW football games. If my guess is wrong, then it's likely either Wheaton or Carthage, or both, that offer it. North Park is probably going to add football to the menu of webcasted sports next season, alongside the currently-offered home men's soccer matches and home men's basketball games. So, for the comedians among you, go ahead and take this opportunity on the CCIW basketball board to crack wise about NPU football here.

Only because you insisted: is anyone masochistic (or sadistic, depending on fanship) enough to watch a North Park football game online?

More seriously, I really do hope they break through soon; NPU football and the current state of Millikin men's basketball are not good for anyone in the conference (least of all, obviously, NPU or Millikin).  I was at the IWU homecoming game against NPU, where a 14-0 lead went to 28-0 in the last two minutes of the first half, allowing me to go the the women's soccer game.  As I left the stadium I talked with a gate attendant, thanking IWU for allowing me to safely go to said soccer game.  He responded "NPU lost the game when they stepped off the bus."  I found the comment a bit rude, but sadly true.

Thanks, Chuck. I knew that I could count on you.

Well like always "nothing that makes sense EVER gets done at Elmhurst."  Don't count on the website.  It is rarely ever accurate.

I think NPU has a very good shot tonight.

I think NPU will pull off an upset tonight.

I do too and don't view  it as an upset.

79jaybird & Titans IWU----

Could you please explain the reasoning behind your feelings about the result of tonight's NPU at NCC game?

79jaybird--

Define upset. Given the fact NCC is 7-2 so far in CCIW conference play as opposed to NPU's 3-7 record, coupled with the fact that NCC defeated NPU by 12 at NPU earlier, would a NPU victory not be considered an "upset"--at least a mild one?

Given the generally highly competitive nature of the CCIW, which we have just about all commented on at one time or another, perhaps few game results could be considered an "upset." I know Carthage fans will disagree, but I think think Carthage victory over Augie the other night was an upset. Also, it seems a Millikin win against anyone at this time could be considered an upset. 

2nd place NCC has to be considered the league's biggest "surprise" so far by almost everyone other than the NCC coaches, players, and fans. However, no remaining game can be considered a gimme, and, dare I say, NCC is likely widely considered the underdog in at least a couple of their remaining games.
Should they fail to give maximum effort in either the physical or mental aspect of a game in any of their remaining contests, they can easily be subject to defeat---whether or not you might consider it an "upset."

North Park is capable of beating NCC, and my feelings might be jaded by wanting to see it happen which would be good for IWU.

I have seen North Park play a few times this year, have read all of Mr. Sager's comments, and looked at the box scores of their other games. It seems to me that when this team is functioning as a unit, they play rather well for 5 minute bursts and sometimes more. There will come a night whether it is this year or next that they all put the "team" together and are able to convincingly beat a team like NCC which is young and may not be expecting it as much as a group of seniors who have seen what can happen in the CCIW for four years.

It is not an attempt to diminish the talent of NCC, they are a really good group. I just think North Park will put it together and when they do, they will be really hard to deal with.

And I hope it is tonight!

You and me both. Unfortunately, I have reached the point where I no longer expect this particular group of players to muster forty minutes of consistent basketball against anybody, be it a freshman-dominated opponent or not. I think that the coaching staff has to make something of a concerted effort to bring in fresh faces next season who are capable of playing together as a team, because this current group simply is not progressing in terms of team-oriented basketball -- and they are no longer young. It's a junior-dominated team in which most of the regulars have played either two seasons now or three in a North Park uniform. I'm pessimistic that they're going to figure it out somewhere down the road, much less tonight. It's a team that very badly needs a couple of guys in the vein of Brian Evans, Troy Rorer, or Max Cary.