MBB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

[Gregory Sager]

Greg, agree to disagree.

It's true that the 'all-time winningest programs' includes plenty of games before d3 existed.  But they keep claiming on the NCAC board (I haven't independently checked the veracity of the claim) that Wooster is the winningest program of the 21st century (and, at least in winning-percentage terms, I believe they are including ALL divisions of the NCAA).

Again -- it makes no difference in terms of D3 how many games your school won in 1964, or 1954, or 1944, etc. The only thing that matters in terms of this discussion is the 1974-75 season onward. What happened before that is not germane to this topic.

If you want to wrangle with the Wooster people and the Wittenberg people and the St. Thomas people about who has won more games since Dr. Naismith nailed the peach basket to the gym wall, go right ahead. But it's a completely different subject than the one that Robb raised.

I find the FF criterion (at only 4 to 3) to be rather arbitrary, especially when you acknowlege that both Hope and Woo have been IN the tourney more times.  All four teams you mentioned are worthy candidates for the "Crash Davis Award", but I'll stick with Woo.

First of all, if you read Robb's blog piece (he's the one who asked the question, so it's his ground rules) you'll see that he puts a lot of stock in tourney-related criteria (most tourney games, most tourney wins, most FF appearances, etc.). And that's as it should be, because we're talking about the D3 tournament when we're talking about winning (or not winning) national championships. Winning national championships is something that you can only do in tournament play. To carry forward his Crash Davis metaphor, tourney stats are like home runs -- significant achievements on another level than regular-season stats. The question is whether or not you ever make it to The Show, which in Crash Davis's world was the major leagues and in our D3 basketball world is the Land of Walnut & Bronze.

Second, I said that Hope and Wooster have been in the tournament more times than has Augustana, not F&M.

Third, the number of times that you get to the tournament is not one of the better criteria for determining who is the ultimate bridesmaid of D3 (or, as Robb calls it, the Crash Davis of D3). Why? Because there are certain situations in which a program can be dominant within a weak league, and thus earn trip after trip after trip to the dance, without necessarily making the same kind of impact in March as do other schools from more competitive leagues who may do more with fewer trips. Hope and Wooster are somewhat good examples of this, since they represent programs that have shared almost total dominance with a lone rival within historically mediocre leagues; Hope and Calvin have owned the MIAA almost exclusively since the dawn of D3, and Wooster and Wittenberg have done the same in the NCAC.

Better examples are Salem State, Christopher Newport, and Maryville. Those are programs that rank among the top ten in all-time D3 tourney appearances, mostly because they've historically dominated weak leagues (if we consider Pool B to be a league, for Maryville's sake). Unlike Hope and Wooster, however, those three schools have practically nothing to show for themselves in terms of making deep runs in the D3 tourney; Salem State made the Final Four in 2000, but it has an overall losing record in D3 play, which is practically unprecedented for a program with over twenty appearances. Same with Christopher Newport, except that the Captains don't even have a single Final Four appearance upon which they could hang their hats. Same with Murvul. We're talking about three programs that either lose their first-round game every year, or lose the second-round game. They're not bridesmaids; they're March cannon fodder, relatively speaking.

Hope and Wooster were like Salem State, Christopher Newport, and Maryville for much of their D3 tourney spans. Hope tried and failed eleven times to get out of the first weekend of the tourney alive before the Dutch finally broke through in 1996; Wooster, similarly, tried and failed eleven times just to even make it to the Sweet Sixteen before finally going on a deep March run in 2003. So, the number of times a program makes it into the tourney, while a valid criterion, is not nearly as good a criterion as the number of times a program makes it deep into a tourney. And in that respect, Augie's got the Dutch and the Scots beat.

... the Diplomats are tied with Augustana for the most Final Four appearances without ever getting a chance to cut down the nets after the title game (four).

Actually—it pains me to say it—it's five Final Four trips without a title for F&M. If nothing else, it strengthens your argument, Greg.

Yeah, after I typed it it I remembered that it was five, not four. Thanks for the reminder, R.W.

[Gregory Sager]

Does anyone have info on coaching vacancies?

Yes.

(OK, my wiseacre response aside, there's very little detail that I can divulge about North Park's search process -- and what information I have is limited, anyway. I can tell you that the number of applications is up well over 100 now, but that's about it. And I don't know how many applications have floated over Joe Hakes' transom down in Decatur, either.)

[Mr. Ypsi]

Greg, if I'm bored enough (but still avoiding doing my taxes! ), I'll take on the task of determining records from 1974-75 on.  Some complications:

A few of the top schools (IWU, WIAC, etc.) were not d3 from day one - know of any single source to identify date of entry to d3?

Unfortunately much of d3hoops data on past seasons (tourney and otherwise) has not yet been brought to the new format.  Do you know of a source for tourney data (beyond just 'Big Doorstop' winners)?  I'd love runners-up, FF, Sweet 16, whatever.

I assume I'll need to go to individual websites for overall records (which d3hoops DOES provide those links).  Off the top of my head I'd check Witt, Woo, IWU, F&M, UWSP, Hope, Calvin, Augie, WashU, NPU (despite some miserable recent seasons, 5 titles can't be ignored ), UWW, Williams, Amherst, 3-4 ODAC schools ... anyone I'm overlooking?  (Pretty sure St. Thomas is a latecomer*, but I'd check them too.)

*almost said 'Johnnie-come-lately', but there would be hell to pay for such a reference!

[Gregory Sager]

Greg, if I'm bored enough (but still avoiding doing my taxes! ), I'll take on the task of determining records from 1974-75 on.  Some complications:

A few of the top schools (IWU, WIAC, etc.) were not d3 from day one - know of any single source to identify date of entry to d3?

Alas, no. UW-Whitewater's been D3 since at least 1982-83, and Illinois Wesleyan has been D3 since 1983-84. The people in the WIAC room can help you with when the rest of the WIAC moved over to D3. But there is no data source anywhere that I've ever been able to find that gives the dates of membership for each D3 school.

Unfortunately much of d3hoops data on past seasons (tourney and otherwise) has not yet been brought to the new format.  Do you know of a source for tourney data (beyond just 'Big Doorstop' winners)?  I'd love runners-up, FF, Sweet 16, whatever.

Everything you need to know is on this PDF file.

I assume I'll need to go to individual websites for overall records (which d3hoops DOES provide those links).  Off the top of my head I'd check Witt, Woo, IWU, F&M, UWSP, Hope, Calvin, Augie, WashU, NPU (despite some miserable recent seasons, 5 titles can't be ignored ), UWW, Williams, Amherst, 3-4 ODAC schools ... anyone I'm overlooking?  (Pretty sure St. Thomas is a latecomer*, but I'd check them too.)

*almost said 'Johnnie-come-lately', but there would be hell to pay for such a reference!

If you're looking for the program with the most wins while flying the D3 flag, then NPU, Wash U, and St. Thomas won't be among the contenders. None of the ODAC schools will be, either. And parity has diffused the winning totals for teams from the OAC and NJAC too much, even though both were strong D3 conferences for generations. Scranton is a must-add to your list. Hamilton, Potsdam State, UW-Platteville, and Nebraska Wesleyan are probably close but not quite there.

Really, though, I can save you the trouble. I think it's a relatively safe bet that the all-time champ in terms of wins accrued while a D3 affiliate is also the all-time winner in terms of D3 tourney wins accrued: Wittenberg.

[Pat Coleman]

Unfortunately much of d3hoops data on past seasons (tourney and otherwise) has not yet been brought to the new format.  

Getting there.

[markerickson]

I remember in either 1985 or 1987 talking to someone in Grand Rapids during the FF that he believed the best team in Division III didn't even get invited to the tournament.  I asked for the school and he replied, "Hope."  His response cracked me up then and now again today as Greg mentioned Hope had not even advanced beyond the first round until 1996.

Stevie D has no more eligibility; President Horner is long gone.

[John Gleich]

I think the '96-'97 school year was when the balance of the WIAC (separate with the women for one season, I think, as the WSUC and the WWIAC) switched from NAIA to D-III.  They then merged into the WIAC on 7/1/97, but I know that '96-97 was the first year of NCAA participation for UWSP (along with Oshkosh, Whitewater, and Platteville that year) and I don't think Point took the leap before the whole conference did.


I think that, until '96-97, the first year that they participated in the tournament would be the first year that "counts" for NCAA participation for Oshkosh, Whitewater, and Platteville (because unless there's some arbitrary declaration in the school's archives prior to these dates, which I wouldn't know how to access easily, that's all we have to go on... and it wouldn't make a whole lot of sense to pay D-III dues and not be in the tournament for a school whose conference is not a D-III conference)

Platteville ('90-91) and Whitewater ('82-83) and Oshkosh ('95-96) jumped early.

Since '96-'97, UWSP is 345-88 (79.7% win percentage) since '96-97.  The only ones with a possibility to rival this would be UWP and WW...

Whitewater is 584-211 (73.5%)* since '82-83.

Platteville is 431-148 (74.4%) since '90-91.


*I wonder... for teams who, like WW and Platteville, made the "leap" before the rest of their conference, should we count years that they didn't make the NCAA tournament?  For example, Whitewater went 16-10 in 86-87 and 90-91 and 17-9 in 89-90... So do those "down" years count towards their D-III number?  And what, then, of Nebraska Wesleyan, who only declares for certain years...?  Would you only count those certain years that they have made the tournament?

FWIW, Whitewater's percentage 535-182 (74.6%) is better... but not monumentally so... and the total wins obviously drops.

Platteville didn't miss the tournament from '90-91 until the WIAC became a D-III conference, so there's no potential adjustment there.

[Gregory Sager]

I remember in either 1985 or 1987 talking to someone in Grand Rapids during the FF that he believed the best team in Division III didn't even get invited to the tournament.  I asked for the school and he replied, "Hope."  His response cracked me up then and now again today as Greg mentioned Hope had not even advanced beyond the first round until 1996.

Hope did get past the first round a few times before 1996. What I said was that Hope didn't get past the first weekend (i.e., the second round) until 1996.

Hope actually appeared in both the '85 and '87 tourneys. In '85 the Dutch beat Otterbein in the first round and then lost to Wittenberg (who would go on to lose to North Park the next weekend) in the second round. In '87 the Dutch were eliminated by Otterbein in the first round.

I think the '96-'97 school year was when the balance of the WIAC (separate with the women for one season, I think, as the WSUC and the WWIAC) switched from NAIA to D-III.  They then merged into the WIAC on 7/1/97, but I know that '96-97 was the first year of NCAA participation for UWSP (along with Oshkosh, Whitewater, and Platteville that year) and I don't think Point took the leap before the whole conference did.


I think that, until '96-97, the first year that they participated in the tournament would be the first year that "counts" for NCAA participation for Oshkosh, Whitewater, and Platteville (because unless there's some arbitrary declaration in the school's archives prior to these dates, which I wouldn't know how to access easily, that's all we have to go on... and it wouldn't make a whole lot of sense to pay D-III dues and not be in the tournament for a school whose conference is not a D-III conference)

Platteville ('90-91) and Whitewater ('82-83) and Oshkosh ('95-96) jumped early.

Since '96-'97, UWSP is 345-88 (79.7% win percentage) since '96-97.  The only ones with a possibility to rival this would be UWP and WW...

Whitewater is 584-211 (73.5%)* since '82-83.

Platteville is 431-148 (74.4%) since '90-91.


*I wonder... for teams who, like WW and Platteville, made the "leap" before the rest of their conference, should we count years that they didn't make the NCAA tournament?  For example, Whitewater went 16-10 in 86-87 and 90-91 and 17-9 in 89-90... So do those "down" years count towards their D-III number?  And what, then, of Nebraska Wesleyan, who only declares for certain years...?  Would you only count those certain years that they have made the tournament?

FWIW, Whitewater's percentage 535-182 (74.6%) is better... but not monumentally so... and the total wins obviously drops.

Platteville didn't miss the tournament from '90-91 until the WIAC became a D-III conference, so there's no potential adjustment there.

I think that you may be operating under a misapprehension, PS. Dual-affiliation schools declare before the season starts whether they are making themselves eligible for the NCAA tournament or for the NAIA tournament. Therefore, membership is not contingent upon whether or not a team makes the tournament. It's contingent upon whether or not the school is a fully-paid-up and accepted member of that particular division, regardless of the prowess (or lack thereof) of its teams. Your statement that "it wouldn't make a whole lot of sense to pay D3 dues and not be in the tournament" is therefore invalid; you "pay dues" and make your declaration prior to the season -- when you have no idea whether or not your team will actually end up being good enough to qualify for post-season play -- not at the end of it.

UWW, for example, first appeared in the D3 tourney in the spring of '83. However, for all I know the Warhawks might have been eligible for the tournament years before that happened, since UWW could've been a D3 member prior to that time.

Nebraska Wesleyan has been a dual-affiliate school since the dawn of D3 back in the mid-'70s. The Prairie Wolves (or, as they were then called, the Plainsmen) appeared in the third-ever D3 tourney back in '77. The school has declared for D3 in basketball every year since then. (Some dual affiliates, such as Menlo, declare for D3 in some sports and for NAIA in others.)

If you're counting all-time records, or records from 1974-75 onwards (or whatever date a particular school first declared for D3) you have to include the seasons in which it didn't make the tourney as well as the seasons in which it did.

[John Gleich]

Ya know, that makes sense... it could be an administrative nightmare (if there were lots with dual-affiliation) for them to do it mid-season.

I think my misapprehension (thanks for not coming out and saying I was flat our wrong!) came from the fact that we didn't "find out" which of the dual members had declared for D-III until the handbook came out, midseason.

So, just because we saw it first in late December or January didn't mean that they DEICDED at that point to declare.

[mactitan]

I love the discussion about the best D3 basketball program without a national title.  In my blog, I made (what I think is) a solid argument for Illinois being the best basketball program in D1 to not win a title.  I called it the "Crash Davis" of college basketball.  A few weeks ago as I was sitting in a standing room only arena watching Augie cruise to an easy win in the Sweet 16, I looked up at the Final Four banners and thought to myself, "Is Augie the Illinois of D3?  I'll have to ask the guys on the d3hoops message board."

I think Sager made a pretty good case for F&M, but Augie is certainly in the discussion.  Reading the story of Augie losing the title at home was agonizing.  As someone that just watched the Titans lose a Final Four game at the Shirk Center, I can certainly commiserate. 

I just figured this would be a pretty good off-season topic, and I enjoyed reading the history.  I also feel like getting to the nitty gritty of which team is D3 and when is pretty daunting.  Maybe I should have framed it as "Best small school to not win a title," but that is probably too vague.  Anyway, good debate.

[Gregory Sager]

I just figured this would be a pretty good off-season topic, and I enjoyed reading the history.  I also feel like getting to the nitty gritty of which team is D3 and when is pretty daunting.  Maybe I should have framed it as "Best small school to not win a title," but that is probably too vague.  Anyway, good debate.

F&M, Augie, and Wooster have all been D3 since the very outset of the division in 1974-75, so that point is moot as far as they're concerned. I think that Hope was a charter D3 member as well (the Dutch simply weren't good enough to qualify for postseason play in the early years of D3, which coincided with the end of the Russ DeVette era at Hope and the beginning of the Glenn Van Wieren era). If Hope wasn't D3 from the outset, it became D3 not too long into the history of the division.

[sac]

I just figured this would be a pretty good off-season topic, and I enjoyed reading the history.  I also feel like getting to the nitty gritty of which team is D3 and when is pretty daunting.  Maybe I should have framed it as "Best small school to not win a title," but that is probably too vague.  Anyway, good debate.

F&M, Augie, and Wooster have all been D3 since the very outset of the division in 1974-75, so that point is moot as far as they're concerned. I think that Hope was a charter D3 member as well (the Dutch simply weren't good enough to qualify for postseason play in the early years of D3, which coincided with the end of the Russ DeVette era at Hope and the beginning of the Glenn Van Wieren era). If Hope wasn't D3 from the outset, it became D3 not too long into the history of the division.

Hope was a charter member of D3 as was the rest of the MIAA I believe.

The MIAA didn't allow post season participation until 1978, which affected Calvin more than Hope.  Calvin won the MIAA all three of those years between charter membership and the first NCAA tournament invite for an MIAA team (Albion 1978, who promptly went to the Final 4).

I'll give Sager half credit on this one, because Hope couldn't have gone to the NCAA even if they were good enough between 75 and 77, but they certainly weren't good enough.  Hope received its first NCAA bid in 1982.

[Gregory Sager]

I just figured this would be a pretty good off-season topic, and I enjoyed reading the history.  I also feel like getting to the nitty gritty of which team is D3 and when is pretty daunting.  Maybe I should have framed it as "Best small school to not win a title," but that is probably too vague.  Anyway, good debate.

F&M, Augie, and Wooster have all been D3 since the very outset of the division in 1974-75, so that point is moot as far as they're concerned. I think that Hope was a charter D3 member as well (the Dutch simply weren't good enough to qualify for postseason play in the early years of D3, which coincided with the end of the Russ DeVette era at Hope and the beginning of the Glenn Van Wieren era). If Hope wasn't D3 from the outset, it became D3 not too long into the history of the division.

Hope was a charter member of D3 as was the rest of the MIAA I believe.

The MIAA didn't allow post season participation until 1978, which affected Calvin more than Hope.  Calvin won the MIAA all three of those years between charter membership and the first NCAA tournament invite for an MIAA team (Albion 1978, who promptly went to the Final 4).

I'll give Sager half credit on this one, because Hope couldn't have gone to the NCAA even if they were good enough between 75 and 77, but they certainly weren't good enough.  Hope received its first NCAA bid in 1982.

I find it interesting and ironic, given the overwhelming dominance of Hope and Calvin in that league, that the first MIAA representative in the D3 tourney was Albion. As sac said, in 1978 the Britons inaugurated the MIAA's sanctioning of postseason play by reaching the Final Four behind the efforts of All-American John Nibert. Once they got to Rock Island for the Final Four, however, the Britons had to face the first iteration of North Park's Harper/Greer/Thomas teams and lost to the Vikings in the national semis, 75-69. Albion then rebounded the next day and beat Stony Brook, 87-78, to finish third in the nation.

(Stony Brook was one of a slew of schools that made appearances in the early years of the D3 tourney before moving on to join D1 or D2.)

Albion also repped the MIAA in '79, but then Calvin stepped in for the first time in '80, and for the next two decades plus it was exclusively the Big Two who flew the MIAA's flag in the D3 tourney.

[Titan Q]

This will be officially announced in 24 hours or so, but congratulations to longtime IWU assistant coach David Steinbrueck on being named head coach at Millikin.  Coach Stein has been an integral part of IWU teams that have made deep NCAA Tournament runs under Dennie Bridge, Scott Trost, and Ron Rose.  

Not only is Coach Stein a great X's and O's basketball mind, but he'll be really good on the recruiting trail.  It will take time, but I'm positive he'll have the Big Blue in the mix within 3-4 years.

A big loss for Illinois Wesleyan, but great news for someone who has worked hard to earn an opportunity like this.

(I wanted to post this yesterday, for fear of people assuming this is an April Fool's joke, but was not allowed!)

[Dennis_Prikkel]

calvin's omission from the early years of the D3 tourney - cost Mark Veenstra a chance to show his stuff on a national stage.  Veenstra was a horse's horse.  And wasn't Calvin unbeaten one of his years?

The Michigan conference's ban on post-season play came about because one-time conference member Hillsdale used to run up the scores in football in order to get nationally ranked.