MBB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

[Gregory Sager]

His defensive shortcomings notwithstanding, Mike Wilson averaged 18.6 ppg, 16.8 ppg, and 14.3 ppg in his three years as a Cardinal, making the All-CCIW third team in 2002-03, second team in 2003-04, and third team in 2004-05. He scored 1,107 points in his three-year career for North Central, joining a fairly select group of CCIW alumni who can claim to have made the Thousand Point Club in less than their allotted four years of varsity basketball. And he did all that in spite of the fact that he missed eight games of the maximum seventy-five that he could've played in those three years due to injuries and North Central's celebrated scheduling snafu a couple of seasons ago.

If Mike Wilson was "a joke" rather than "a good player", I'm afraid that I don't get the punch line.

[MilkMan25]

First off, I will agree that the Cardinals have good talent returning, but if you havent kept up with the CCIW for the last couple years than let me fill you in...The Cardinals have repeatedly dominated the non-conference and then been just sub par in conference, and nothing that I saw last year led me to believe that they can do any better.  We have to remember that yeah, maybe the Cardinals have improved from last season and have been working hard in the off-season, but do you think that all the other CCIW teams have just been sitting on their butts?  As far as predicting conference champs...Obviously we know Wesleyan is loaded, but I dont think you have been doing your research mtwilson, because Wheaton will most likely not have Raymond, who is by no means a better all-around then Martin (should have been MOP last season), and what probably would have been there starting center, Trenz.  I cant see Wheaton finishing above Elmhurst, Augie, or North Central.  Lastly, as far as Simmons being the best big man in the conference, I disagree.  He definitely has some stiff competition out of Zach Freeman and Nick Michael, from what I saw towards the end of last season.

[MilkMan25]

One last comment on these past couple posts...I need to agree with Sager and say that while Wilson might have had a little let down last season even though he still managed to average 14.3 pts and get third team all-conference, he is a heck of a player.  And yeah his defense may have been on the sketchy side, but  you find me a player that can average 18.6 pts his freshman year in the CCIW and then get back to me(excluding Raymond, hes just freakishly good).

[mtwilson]

You're absolutely right mikman, I do apoligize for my lack of knowledge right now (I've recently moved to Arizona and been somewhat out of the loop).  I really hope Raymond plays, guarding/being guarded by him last year gave me an amazing amount of respect for his total game.  Without him, Wheaton could struggle the but they just have a solid program that doesn't rely on talent solely.  Not saying other teams haven't worked hard, but I can assure you NCC's meltdown in conference was because I know it was because of working much less than the average CCIW team the past years.  I won't get an disagreement about Simmons, because as an outsider it would be easy to put others above him, but I guarentee the season shows you that Simmons is shoulders above the competition in the post (offense and defense) and his ability to guard the mid range and face up on the offensive end mid range.  I think his only hurdle before last season was how hard he was going to work at getting better, but the next two years you'll see the Simmons that many D2 and D1 schools showed serious interest in (skeptical about his size at those levels).  Can anyone tell me anything about Augustana's starting PG this year, sophomore right??

[True Basketball Fan]

Wilson guy, I saw Simmons this summer.  He looks very good physically, more mobile and sharp.  He also seems to be a little more mature.  With his skills, size, and good direction from the coaches, he could lethal this year.  I wouldn't be suprised by a 1st team honor for him.

[Cardsfan4life]

Wilson may have been a good player and good scorer but if you look at the points that the guy he was guarding scored then you would understand.  Plus, during his freshman and somphore year Wilson was the only guy to shoot the ball.  There whole offense was around him.  He bascially looked like a Kobe Bryant out there.  He was too selfish to pass and was almost always complaining.  I have connections with the North Central program and I know Wilson wanted to do nothing during the off season and I am positive the coaches are not going to miss him.

[mtwilson]

Cardsfan sounds like the friend of a bitter teammate.  First in assist, third in rebounding, and second in scoring.  Questioning my offseason work ethic is making a blind stab.  There are very few people that know what that ethic was like and I can promise you, you are not one of them.  I respect your opinion because we are all entitled to one, however, people like you might be the reason all this false information makes it onto these boards.  Speak your mind but leave facts to people who really know what is going on.  I just want to follow my college through this board, not read false accusations about myself and my former teammates and coaches.

[Gregory Sager]

CF4L, you're contradicting yourself. In the space of five hours you've gone from denying that Wilson was a good player -- indeed, he was a "joke" -- to acknowledging that he was a good player after all. Next, in one sentence you say that "their [NCC's] whole offense was [built] around him" his freshman year, but then you say two sentences later that "he was too selfish to pass". Which one was it? Did he shoot all the time because the offense was built around him, or did he shoot all the time because he was too selfish to pass? Pick an assertion and stick with it, because the two that you've made thus far contradict each other.

Again, while nobody was going to nominate him for the CCIW's mythical Defensive Player of the Year award, he nevertheless made the all-conference team all three years that he wore a Cardinals uni. It's a pretty rare breed of ballplayer that can achieve that -- like making the Thousand Point Club in only three seasons, the list of players in CCIW history who've made the all-conference team three times is not a long one. It speaks volumes as to how much the other CCIW coaches respected his game.

Sorry, but you're just not coming off with a lot of credibility where Wilson is concerned.

Don't worry about CF4L, Mike. Those of us who follow this league closely have a pretty good grasp of your value to your team over the past three seasons.

[devildog29]

Milkman, I will preface this by saying I only saw Martin play 2 games against Wesleyan last year, so it's a pretty limited experience, but to say so confidently he should have been MOP over Dauksus is awfully bold.  Whether you agree with his on court antics or not, Adam showed a lot of people last year he was as good as they come in D3 at the point, and flat out took over some games last year when the team needed someone to step up and do so.  There is a reason why he was all-american last year.  I think most people would agree that all things equal as far as talent goes, the person that leads the team to the title will generally get the benefit of the doubt in MOP voting.  Until Martin leads the 'Jays to anything above a 3rd place finish, I'm sorry, he's not the MOP in the conference.  Now I know you're going to say that he didn't have the talent around him that Dauksus had, but nonetheless, the MOP will usually go to the better team.  It would be a bit of a stretch, but I could even make the argument that if Martin did have better players around him, his numbers wouldn't be near as good as what they are because he wouldn't be scoring option 1 and 1A on the team.  Adam put up his numbers while still leading the conference in assists, sharing the ball with Amelianovich, Freeman, and Jones.  IMHO.

[True Basketball Fan]

"Until Martin leads the 'Jays to anything above a 3rd place finish, I'm sorry, he's not the MOP in the conference." - devildog29

Ummm.....Elmhurst finished in second place last year, and if they would've beaten Wesleyan at home (which was very close until a few minutes to go I might add), they would've won the league and got the automatic bid.

[True Basketball Fan]

Hey, Wilson.  So what if guys scored on you, I bet you outscored most of them anyway.  Isn't that the basic principle of basketball, have more points than your opponent?  In your defense, your team didn't always follow suit, and that's why you lost a few more games than you wanted.

[MilkMan25]

I guess I must be missing something devildog...First of all Martin led his team to a second place finish while being picked seventh...Second of all he led the conference in scoring, rebounding, and steals, and was third in assists which leads me to believe that he did have some talent around him.  Someone had to finish the dimes that he dished out...Dave G averaged 15 pts, while leading the conference in free throw percentage, and Nick Michael averaged, about 14 pts, while averaging the second best in rebounding and leading the conference in offensive rebounding...But Martin had no talent around him??? I have no idea where you are coming from.

[Gregory Sager]

I thought that Martin was the best player in the league last season, too (although I was pretty sure that Dauksas would win the award, since DevilDog is right in saying that a player from the team that wins the title usually has a leg up on winning the MOP). But in fairness to the perceptiveness of DevilDog and his fellow Wesleyan fans who are not as taken with Martin as are some of the rest of us, they saw Martin at his worst last season.

Martin went a combined 7-24 from the field in his two games against the Titans in 2004-05, scoring 10 and 13 in spite of the fact that he averaged 18.4 ppg in league play. The only other two CCIW games in which he failed to score at least 14 were the game against North Central at Faganel (9 pts) and the game against Augustana at Carver (12 pts). And aside from his 2-8 from the field in that home game against the Cards, Martin's 4-12 and 3-12 shooting performances against Wesleyan were his two worst in league play. I didn't see either game, but I'm guessing by the numbers that the Titans kept him from getting to the basket much those two nights, both in the halfcourt and in transition.

The same thing happened the season before. In 2003-04 Martin also led the CCIW in scoring, posting a 19.4 ppg average. But against Wesleyan he faltered, scoring only 12 and 10. In each of Elmhurst's twelve other CCIW games he scored at least 13 points.

Sometimes a particular opponent has a player's number, as the Titans apparently have Martin's. Sometimes it's the other way around -- Mike Wilson lit up that exact same Titans defense like a Christmas tree the last two times he faced them, scoring 31 and 34 points respectively. Wilson, who missed two of the six games North Central played against Wesleyan in his career due to injury, averaged 24.3 ppg in those four games against the Titans (his overall career average was 16.5). Martin's only averaging 15.3 ppg after six contests against Wesleyan -- and that includes the 30 he dropped on the Titans in his first game against them his freshman season back in 2001-02. Take away that game, and he's averaging 12.4 vs. the Titans (overall career average: 15.8 ).

Yeah, I'm not surprised that Wesleyan fans are sticking up for Dauksas. That's only natural, and if it was a North Park player whose award was being challenged I'd be defending him in the same manner. But apart from fan loyalty it's completely understandable that Wesleyan supporters such as DevilDog are Martin skeptics. The Titans have shut Martin down -- or they've at least forced him into situations where he's tried to do too much and his game has suffered accordingly.

My guess is that Martin is going to have to step it up a notch in the big games in order to win the MOP in 2005-06, whether it's league favorite Wesleyan or some other team that winds up being Elmhurst's biggest obstacle to winning the CCIW title.

[dansand]

Mike,

Drew Wessels will be a junior this year. He played mostly JV ball as a freshman when Jim Thomas was a senior. Last year, he really matured as the season went along. By the end of the year, I don't think there was a better point guard in the league, after Dauksas. His offensive numbers certainly won't knock you out (and probably never will), although he's a pretty efficient shooter (over 40% 3-pt; over 80% FT). His real strength is pressuring the ball. He finished second in the league in steals and loves to draw charges. I would imagine, he's the type of player against whom other players hate to play.

[Gregory Sager]

I wouldn't have ranked Drew Wessels above Wheaton's Jon Nielson last year. That's not to say that I'm dismissive of Wessels, mind you; I think he's a terrific young point guard in the traditional mold, and I wouldn't be surprised if he gets even better.