MBB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

[TitansIWU]

You people are unbelievable -- a technical given to coach G has morphed into his players are dirty and should be assessed technical fouls -- What?? It sounds like some people are tired of getting there asses kicked by Augie and are trying to move the spotlight from the programs success to demeaning the coach & players in the program.  Since 2005-06 season there have been 12 CCIW championships -- 6 conference and 6 tournament -- Augie has won 7 of the 12.  The good programs play defense and rebound with great tenacity and toughness which many of you appear to be mistaking for dirty play.  If that is the case you have a problem with the entire CCIW officiating staff not the Augustana program.

Beating them by 10 in Bloomington and then losing by 2 in overtime at Augie doesn't seem like an ass kicking to me. If my math is correct, it makes IWU +8 for this season. 

I, also have been nothing but impressed by his win/loss record as a coach, aside from the sideline, "oh look at me, I'm a big part of the game too" antics that make him look like a complete tool.

If he has the right to jump around, throw jackets, wave off referees in public, then posters on here certainly have the right to voice their opinions on those wacky sideline displays.

For the record, I never mentioned the players, I don't really care how they play, that is up to the refs to decide, not me.

[sac]

So other than the obvious banter about GG's sideline antics.....does anyone have anything to add about the game between Augustana and North Central tonight? 

Seems kind of important. 

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

For anyone who cares, I talked to a couple of ref friends of mine last night and they said the memo from the NCAA about sportsmanship calls in games did in fact make its way to every ref in Division III. I realize this would be expected, but reading an article like the one geared towards a D1 angle, you just never know when something says all officials and the article was once again just talking about Division I.

Anyway, my friends indicated they have been told to keep an eye on such sportsmanship problems on the court and on the sidelines. The interesting comment was that one of my friends indicated he has been "punished" in the past for calling such infractions, but now has a memo stating it should be a focus...

And not sure it is related, but the end of a women's game I was at last night featured 3 T's on one play for pushing and shoving after two players got tied up. One of the refs on the crew I believe has been to the Final Four to call a game (need to double-check, but I think it was a championship game).

[TitansIWU]

So other than the obvious banter about GG's sideline antics.....does anyone have anything to add about the game between Augustana and North Central tonight? 

Seems kind of important. 

ummm, Go Augie!

[Gregory Sager]

You people are unbelievable -- a technical given to coach G has morphed into his players are dirty and should be assessed technical fouls -- What?? It sounds like some people are tired of getting there asses kicked by Augie and are trying to move the spotlight from the programs success to demeaning the coach & players in the program.  Since 2005-06 season there have been 12 CCIW championships -- 6 conference and 6 tournament -- Augie has won 7 of the 12.  The good programs play defense and rebound with great tenacity and toughness which many of you appear to be mistaking for dirty play.  If that is the case you have a problem with the entire CCIW officiating staff not the Augustana program.

I'll third what Bob and TitansIWU have already said, and what I've said countless times before on CCIW Chat: Grey Giovanine is a terrific basketball coach whose record of success speaks for itself. And he acts like an embarrassing goofball during a game. These are not mutually exclusive facts. One does not cancel out the other.

As for my statement about Augie playing dirty:

I think that his players should get more technicals, but not for salty language or dramatic gestures with their clothing, a la their head coach. I think that his players should get more technicals for dispensing forearms to an opponent's solar plexus, for grabbing an opponent's shirt and throwing him out of bounds, for kneeing him in the back of the thigh, and for the dozens of other dirty little tricks that've come to characterize the Augie program we all know and love.

Greg,

This post is definitely way below your usual standards. The criticisms of Coach G are fine, but a blanket accusation that Augie players are dirty, especially with no specifics or details, smacks a bit of silly whining. You're better than that. The game of basketball has gotten a lot more physical over the past 20 years or so (truth be told, more physical than I'd prefer), but it is what it is. Augie plays a tough, physical brand of basketball, but they're hardly alone. Augie's on the receiving end of plenty of physical play as well. Last year's St. Thomas team was one of the toughest and most physical I've seen, but in no way dirty.

Perhaps Mr. Sager was, in fact, reporting on behaviors by Augie players which he has personally observed. If that is the case, then I think we need to take him at his word.
If he has not actually observed the aforementioned type of behaviors, perhaps he was merely suggesting that the perception of said behavior is an easy inference based on it being an extension of the personality of their leader. Someone whose behavior has been observed by many over the long term, and who has demonstrated repeatedly that he has not learned how to channel his aggressive drives into socially accepted patterns of behavior.     

No, I'm not inferring anything based upon the idea that a team is an extension of the personality of its leader. I'm stating what I've seen as an eyewitness numerous times -- and not simply in Augie games involving NPU, either. In fact, the roughest and dirtiest game I've ever seen an Augie team play -- probably the roughest and dirtiest game I've ever seen any college team play -- was an Augie @ Wheaton game at King Arena a few years ago. (It was not last year's game that 74impala referenced in which Chris Anderson fouled Jon DeMoss from behind on a layup.)

Dan, if you'd like I could cite several chapter-and-verse examples of dirty play I've seen from Augie players. I'm not much interested in naming names, but if that's what it will take to eliminate the charge of "silly whining", then that's what I'll do.

I'm not on an island here in terms of this opinion. I've talked to enough people around the league and have overheard enough conversations in the stands over the years to know full well that Augie has a league-wide reputation for dishing out the occasional cheap shot, and that I'm not the only one who has seen it happen. This isn't to say that other teams don't engage in dirty play on occasion, either. But it is marked and persistent enough with regard to Augie for it to be a characteristic widely associated with the Augustana program.

You are absolutely right that college basketball has gotten much more physical over the years, Dan, and, like you, I deplore that. I love the toughness and the physicality associated with the midwest brand of the sport, but it's clearly crossed the line even for my taste. Augustana typically plays very tough, very hard-nosed basketball that is in keeping with this modern trend, and it plays that style very well -- to its credit. But several Augie players over the years have not been above crossing over what I consider a pretty clear, bright line into out-and-out cheap shots on occasion. It's happened often enough to be noticed and remarked upon by a lot of other people besides me. Hardwood is absolutely right when he describes Augustana as playing with "great tenacity and toughness" -- but deliberately kneeing opponents in the back of the thigh when the ball in thrown in on an inbounds play, bear-hugging opponents from behind at the final buzzer in order to keep them from getting the ball in a one-point game, grabbing opponents by the shirt and heaving them out-of-bounds when the ball is traveling up the floor the other way (and the refs are thus looking elsewhere), throwing a forearm into the chest of an opponent cutting across the lane, and other items of this nature are not an example of how to "play defense and rebound with great tenacity and toughness."

And, no, I am not accusing Grey Giovanine of deliberately instructing his players to do these things. That would be a serious charge, and there is no public proof of it.

[rvb909400]

It would be good to have some statistics to back up the claims.....like this year, Augustana has 334 PF versus 428 PF for their opponents.  Last year, they had 563 PF versus 672 PF for their opponents.  As for IWU, they have 397 PF versus 401 PF for their opponents and last year, they had 590 PF versus 536 PF for their opponents.  The CCIW web site doesn't have PF going back further years.  I would love to see the analysis.  As for the past two years, the statistics don't lie on who is the most agressive team.

[NCF]

I know many of you posters here also post on the football board as well. There was a terrible tragedy involving two former NCC football players early this morning. Please keep the families in your prayers.

[Gregory Sager]

It would be good to have some statistics to back up the claims.....like this year, Augustana has 334 PF versus 428 PF for their opponents.  Last year, they had 563 PF versus 672 PF for their opponents.  As for IWU, they have 397 PF versus 401 PF for their opponents and last year, they had 590 PF versus 536 PF for their opponents.  The CCIW web site doesn't have PF going back further years.  I would love to see the analysis.  As for the past two years, the statistics don't lie on who is the most agressive team.

It's not a question of aggressiveness or personal foul totals. Aggressiveness and personal fouls are part of the game, and they happen within the reactive flow of play. Cheap shots aren't reactive; they're deliberate. And it's not as though Augie spends forty minutes per game every game acting like the cast of The Road Warrior. I can't emphasize that enough; Augustana plays hard, and there's a distinct difference between playing hard and playing dirty. Playing hard is a constant mindset with Augustana, and it's characteristic of the Doggies for (usually) all forty minutes that they're on the floor. As for the dirtiness, these actions tend to be isolated, as well as performed with the sort of furtive discretion that indicate a desire to not be caught at it by the men in stripes.

[cardinalpride]

So other than the obvious banter about GG's sideline antics.....does anyone have anything to add about the game between Augustana and North Central tonight? 

Seems kind of important. 

ummm, Go Augie!

Go Cards!!!

[thunder38]

You people are unbelievable -- a technical given to coach G has morphed into his players are dirty and should be assessed technical fouls -- What?? It sounds like some people are tired of getting there asses kicked by Augie and are trying to move the spotlight from the programs success to demeaning the coach & players in the program.  Since 2005-06 season there have been 12 CCIW championships -- 6 conference and 6 tournament -- Augie has won 7 of the 12.  The good programs play defense and rebound with great tenacity and toughness which many of you appear to be mistaking for dirty play.  If that is the case you have a problem with the entire CCIW officiating staff not the Augustana program.

I'll third what Bob and TitansIWU have already said, and what I've said countless times before on CCIW Chat: Grey Giovanine is a terrific basketball coach whose record of success speaks for itself. And he acts like an embarrassing goofball during a game. These are not mutually exclusive facts. One does not cancel out the other.

As for my statement about Augie playing dirty:

I think that his players should get more technicals, but not for salty language or dramatic gestures with their clothing, a la their head coach. I think that his players should get more technicals for dispensing forearms to an opponent's solar plexus, for grabbing an opponent's shirt and throwing him out of bounds, for kneeing him in the back of the thigh, and for the dozens of other dirty little tricks that've come to characterize the Augie program we all know and love.

Greg,

This post is definitely way below your usual standards. The criticisms of Coach G are fine, but a blanket accusation that Augie players are dirty, especially with no specifics or details, smacks a bit of silly whining. You're better than that. The game of basketball has gotten a lot more physical over the past 20 years or so (truth be told, more physical than I'd prefer), but it is what it is. Augie plays a tough, physical brand of basketball, but they're hardly alone. Augie's on the receiving end of plenty of physical play as well. Last year's St. Thomas team was one of the toughest and most physical I've seen, but in no way dirty.

Perhaps Mr. Sager was, in fact, reporting on behaviors by Augie players which he has personally observed. If that is the case, then I think we need to take him at his word.
If he has not actually observed the aforementioned type of behaviors, perhaps he was merely suggesting that the perception of said behavior is an easy inference based on it being an extension of the personality of their leader. Someone whose behavior has been observed by many over the long term, and who has demonstrated repeatedly that he has not learned how to channel his aggressive drives into socially accepted patterns of behavior.     

No, I'm not inferring anything based upon the idea that a team is an extension of the personality of its leader. I'm stating what I've seen as an eyewitness numerous times -- and not simply in Augie games involving NPU, either. In fact, the roughest and dirtiest game I've ever seen an Augie team play -- probably the roughest and dirtiest game I've ever seen any college team play -- was an Augie @ Wheaton game at King Arena a few years ago. (It was not last year's game that 74impala referenced in which Chris Anderson fouled Jon DeMoss from behind on a layup.)

Dan, if you'd like I could cite several chapter-and-verse examples of dirty play I've seen from Augie players. I'm not much interested in naming names, but if that's what it will take to eliminate the charge of "silly whining", then that's what I'll do.

I'm not on an island here in terms of this opinion. I've talked to enough people around the league and have overheard enough conversations in the stands over the years to know full well that Augie has a league-wide reputation for dishing out the occasional cheap shot, and that I'm not the only one who has seen it happen. This isn't to say that other teams don't engage in dirty play on occasion, either. But it is marked and persistent enough with regard to Augie for it to be a characteristic widely associated with the Augustana program.

You are absolutely right that college basketball has gotten much more physical over the years, Dan, and, like you, I deplore that. I love the toughness and the physicality associated with the midwest brand of the sport, but it's clearly crossed the line even for my taste. Augustana typically plays very tough, very hard-nosed basketball that is in keeping with this modern trend, and it plays that style very well -- to its credit. But several Augie players over the years have not been above crossing over what I consider a pretty clear, bright line into out-and-out cheap shots on occasion. It's happened often enough to be noticed and remarked upon by a lot of other people besides me. Hardwood is absolutely right when he describes Augustana as playing with "great tenacity and toughness" -- but deliberately kneeing opponents in the back of the thigh when the ball in thrown in on an inbounds play, bear-hugging opponents from behind at the final buzzer in order to keep them from getting the ball in a one-point game, grabbing opponents by the shirt and heaving them out-of-bounds when the ball is traveling up the floor the other way (and the refs are thus looking elsewhere), throwing a forearm into the chest of an opponent cutting across the lane, and other items of this nature are not an example of how to "play defense and rebound with great tenacity and toughness."

And, no, I am not accusing Grey Giovanine of deliberately instructing his players to do these things. That would be a serious charge, and there is no public proof of it.

Since it's come up several times, following the foul against DeMoss at King last year, there was obviously the animosity towards the Augie bench given the fact that DeMoss was briefly a member of the Augie program and being behind the benches at the time Augie was suspiciously quiet in response.  To which GG even turned his back and walked quietly away rather than his normal boisterous personality.  Greg I think I remember the game you're referring to several years ago and it certainly was a knockdown, drag out affair, but as far as an isolated incident goes the foul on DeMoss is as questionable as it gets. 

You people are unbelievable -- a technical given to coach G has morphed into his players are dirty and should be assessed technical fouls -- What?? It sounds like some people are tired of getting there asses kicked by Augie and are trying to move the spotlight from the programs success to demeaning the coach & players in the program.  Since 2005-06 season there have been 12 CCIW championships -- 6 conference and 6 tournament -- Augie has won 7 of the 12.  The good programs play defense and rebound with great tenacity and toughness which many of you appear to be mistaking for dirty play.  If that is the case you have a problem with the entire CCIW officiating staff not the Augustana program. 

I've come to appreciate the style of basketball that Augie plays and I don't think anyone here is going to argue with the success that has come under Grey because they've been the team to beat the last few years, but if you think that the representation of fact and opinion on the topic is an issue of jealousy towards the success of the program or towards wishing to have similar success, than in the words of the great philosopher Jerry Angelo, "Go whistle Dixie."

[AndOne]

So other than the obvious banter about GG's sideline antics.....does anyone have anything to add about the game between Augustana and North Central tonight? 

Seems kind of important. 

Unfortunately, it suddenly and sadly doesn't seem so important. Life is whats most important, and the North Central family has suffered a tragic loss of life in an early Sat morning homicide in downtown Naperville. Its very hard to type so I'll just provide a link. PRAYERS TO THE FAMILIES OF THE YOUNG MEN INVOLVED.

  http://naperville.patch.com/articles/naperville-teacher-dead-after-incident-overnight

[Gregory Sager]

Wow. How sad. How do you tell a classroom full of seven-year-olds that their teacher was stabbed to death? It boggles the mind.

My thoughts and prayers are with Shaun's and Willie's families.

[iwu70]

Very sorry to hear about the tragic incident in Napervile, impacting the NCC community.  My condolences to the families and friends of the two victims.  Very sad.

IWU70

[TitansIWU]

Just tragic. Thoughts and prayers to all involved.

[Gregory Sager]

Carthage 82
Millikin 49