MBB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

[iwu70]

Regional rankings up.

IWU70

[robertgoulet]

Regional rankings up.

IWU70

Midwest
1   Washington U.   15-4   15-5
2   Transylvania   18-1   19-2
3   Lake Forest       17-2   18-2
4   Wheaton (Ill.)   15-4   17-4
5   North Central (Ill. 14-4   15-6
6   Illinois Wesleyan   14-5   16-5
7   Edgewood       14-5   16-5
8   Concordia (Wis.)   15-4   16-4

[AndOne]

My updated Midwest Region ranking projection through games of Sunday, February 4 (Wash U won @ Emory today)...

- In-region record listed
- Includes "in-region" wins over teams I project would be in the ranking discussion in the Midwest (below) or other regions (example, UW-Stevens Point in West)
- Also includes all losses 

1. Transylvania (HCAC), 18-1 (won vs Wabash, vs Hanover...lost @ Defiance)
2. Washington U (UAA), 15-4 (won vs Augustana, vs Wheaton, vs Emory, @ Emory...lost @ Whitworth, @ IWU, vs NYU, @ Rochester)
3. Wheaton (CCIW), 15-4 (won vs NCC, vs IWU...lost @ Hope, @ Wash U, @ IWU, @ Augustana)
4. North Central (CCIW), 14-4 (won @ Augustana, vs IWU, vs Augustana...lost @ Aurora, @ Simpson, @ UW-P, @ Wheaton)
5. Lake Forest (MWC), 17-2 (none...lost @ Edgewood, vs Grinnell)
6. Illinois Wesleyan (CCIW), 14-5 (won vs Wash U, vs Wheaton, vs Augustana...lost @ Ripon, @ UW-Whitewater, @ NCC, @ Wheaton, @ Augustana)
7. Augustana (CCIW), 15-5 (won vs UW-Stevens Point, vs Wheaton, vs IWU...lost @ Wash U, vs North Central, @ IWU, @ Elmhurst, @ North Central)
8. Grinnell (MWC), 15-3 (won @ Lake Forest...lost @ Carroll, @ Ripon, @ St. Norbert)
----------
9. Hanover (HCAC), 15-4 (won vs Ohio Wesleyan...lost vs Ohio Northern, @ Manchester, @ Transylvania, vs Earlham)
10. Edgewood (NATHC), 14-5 (won vs Lake Forest...lost vs UW-Stevens Point, @ UW-Whitewater, @ MSOE, @ Marian, @ Aurora)
11. Concordia, WI (NATHC), 15-4 (none...lost @ UW-Eau Claire, @ Benedictine, @ Carroll, @ Edgewood)

KnightSlappy's regional ranking analysis...

http://tomaroonandgold.blogspot.com/2012/02/regional-rankings-262012.html

His objective system and my subjective system have 7 of the same teams in our top 8.  He has Concorida (WI) in over Augustana...I can't see that actually happening.

Regional rankings up.

IWU70

Midwest
1   Washington U.   15-4   15-5
2   Transylvania   18-1   19-2
3   Lake Forest       17-2   18-2
4   Wheaton (Ill.)   15-4   17-4
5   North Central (Ill. 14-4   15-6
6   Illinois Wesleyan   14-5   16-5
7   Edgewood       14-5   16-5
8   Concordia (Wis.)   15-4   16-4

Must be a misprint!     

[iwu70]

OldBaseliner, wow, you must sit in a much rougher section of the Titan Shirk crowd than I do!  That is pretty tough, picking out particular players and trying to verbally abuse them.  Not much sportsmanship in that.  Guess they didn't hear the CCIW league script about sportsmanship which is read out at the beginning of each game, each evening. 

In my section, up high in the middle section (below where Dennie and his wife sit) things are pretty tame, with the big group of grey beards and the "old old" of the loyal alumni fan base, also some family, parents of players, and some IWU faculty and staff.  There are some of us over there who enjoy yelling and screaming and get into the refs from time to time, especially when things seem poorly performed by the zebras, but nothing like you describe.  We do have some fun with it all, chatting up the refs, and letting them know when we think they owe us one, or two.  Yes, some terse, direct comments were sent the Zebras way after Zimmer was hit and went down last night, indeed so.  We generally support our beloved Titans and give them ample verbal encouragement and support.  One old friend yells "follow through" on every Titan free throw attempt.  We all have our own chants and idiosyncrazies . . . yes, akin to crazies, no doubt.  But we all have fun with it and feel good at the end of the game, especially when the Titans are victorious.  Gladly, I've rarely heard truly mean and malicious things directed toward opposition players, though once in awhile, there are some verbally abusive comments hurled at the opposing coach when he/she is engaging in antics the homeys consider over the line.  Yes, usually at Bosco or Giovanne, to be sure.  It wouldn't be the CCIW race and The Shirk without such passion, such antics, such buzz, such chatter.  We should be thankful for this fan following, passion and excitement, at least at some of the better, bigger games.  In the old days at Fred Young Fieldhouse, it was all usually directed at Millikin, save for the fun and games we had at ISU during that last great game played in Horton Fieldhouse, the game of the famous Tommy Gramkow last-second winning shot (and the chicken, the "real Redbird," tossed on the floor before the tipoff).  Delighted the other night that I was sitting just two rows behind Tommy and Barb during the IWU vs. NCC encounter.  Tommy and Barb and Sheldon Thompson are totally loyal IWU basketball fans, yes, part of the "old alum" group now, part of the infamous Class of '70 era and group.

Much more delightful time at the Shirk just now, with the women pounding NCC 94-54, and Carthage also lost tonight, so our women have full two game lead on the entire league heading to Kenosha for a good game with the RedLadies this Saturday.  Again tonight, Olivia Lett was awesome, just unstoppable, though many many other Titans had excellent games tonight, esp. Melissa Gardner and Michelle Bilek.  Yes, I know, this is the men's board so go ahead and complain.  It's a free country . . . remember, free speech and expression!  I'm sure Pat Coleman has much more to worry about. 

Congrats again to NCC men.  They've got the league crown almost in the bag.

Any comments by the Oldtimers, experts on this board about the regional rankings posted today?

IWU70

[pgkevin]

As you can tell by my number of posts, I am not a hall of fame poster, merely a lurker.  I have been an IWU fan since the late 1960s.  I am now 57 years old and can be considered an elderly IWU fan.  I found the posts by spencer 1988 and TitansIWU insightful, and I thank them.  Last night at the NCC/IWU mens game I left my baseline seat at halftime and watched the second half in the relative quiet of the upper level railing.  The reason for my move was a few of the usual suspects, a couple of IWU fans, even older than myself verbally abusing a NCC player.  After loudly discussing a Cardinal player's use of elbows, they agreed that said player was a "dirty player".  Yes, in midst of a physical half of basketball their green tinted vision only picked out one dark red jersey wearing culprit.  They yelled the player's number to the officials and screamed of his heinous deeds.  Fine, I can take complaining to the officials, that must come with the price of a ticket.  But, then they took upon themselves to scream at the young man, telling him that he was a dirty player, and when the player was fouled on the defensive end, he came to our end to shoot his free throws.  The two fans yelled at the dirty player and wanted to know how it felt to hit the floor and get his own medicine. Glaring at the fans were not enough.  I should have done more, but didn't.  I waited until half and I left my seat and headed for quieter surroundings.

I suffer the frustrated fans who coach from their seats, guided by the remarkable skill gained from hindsight.  I suffer the fans who feel it is their responsibility to distract the refs from their already difficult, if not impossible job.  But, I am disappointed with the spectators, who see nothing out of place by attacking young men and women who only want to play this sport they love, and compete with their like-minded opponents.  I can only hope that before anyone takes it upon themselves to attack and opposing player, that they take a second and imagine their target in their own school's colors.

Well said.

[Gregory Sager]

I will also say that the older crowd at IWU are very loyal but they lack some basketball knowledge based on the comments they yell at the refs every game I have attended.  Tonight I thought the worst was when Zimmer was hurt by running into the shoulder of a screen.  The North Central player setting the screen may have ducked a shoulder but it clearly wasn't malicious and maybe not even a foul.  The IWU fans are spouting at the ref during the first few minutes that Zimmer lay on the ground with a trainer over him.  This wasn't the students this was the older Titan fans.  I appreciate the passion but a real lack of perspective to be yelling at the officials for a couple minutes when one of your players is laying on the ground injured.  Just an observation.

It's really just a matter of some of them being of the age where they have absolutely no filter on what they say or the rationale behind it. I agree it is pretty annoying, but I have sat in the stands around them enough times to know that they really are not mean spirited people, they just have somehow lost a sense of what is appropriate. For a long time, I wondered if it was just their generation. I am still not 100% sure, but I lean towards them just being verbally reckless as they age.

Either that or their green tinted glasses are so thick, it impairs their ability to think clearly before they speak?

Some actually never say a word, but there are a couple of groups that are truly brutal, and they say things that if you said when you were younger might even cause a fight in the stands!

God bless them all for being out there, we all have to get older and I hope I am as active as many of them someday.

I hope Zimmer is okay, I remember seeing a similar collision years ago in high school, this was before the precautions of today. The player ended up going back in the game and later in the locker room, he asked "did we win?"

So, I am glad they take more precautions today, the effects of a concussion can be felt for a lifetime.

TitansIWU

Several posters have already affirmed Landon didn't do anything wrong so that isn't an issue.

*You make a good and important point with regard to the treatment of concussions and the need to exercise care.
As an illustration of said care, I can tell you what the modus operandi is at North Central.

First of all, its noteworthy that a concussion is a metabolic rather than a structural injury. Thus structural neuroimaging techniques such as CT, MRI, or EEG are often insensitive as the the effects of concussion syndrome.
Accordingly, currently at the forefront of proper concussion management is the implementation of baseline and/or post-injury neurocognitive testing.
First, an athlete must pass a computer generated neurocognitive test given at school. Only when he/she passes this test, the athlete is then sent to a neurologist for additional personal neurocognitive testing by the medical specialist who then can authorize or continue to withhold permission to return to action. Only the neurologist can authorize the return, and a player doesn't even get to see the neuro until successfully passing the test on the computer.
I assume many schools also follow this 2 level/stage process in the management of concussion syndrome.   

Good, informative post, Mark. As far as I know, the two-level concussion protocol is now S.O.P. for collegiate sports. I know that Mike Gabriel of NPU did not pass the computer test on at least his first try last week, which is why he ended up missing both the Carthage and Illinois Wesleyan games. He may have had more tries that he failed besides that one; I'm not sure. He did finally pass the computer test this past weekend and was cleared by the neurologist on Sunday.

[AndOne]

IWU70--

Not sure where this would be in relation to where you were seated, but 3-4 men of approximately your same age who were sitting 3-4 rows directly behind the P.A. announcer also voiced their opinion that the NCC player in question was a "dirty player." Further showing their lack of understanding, some would say ignorance, of the game, they then even more vociferously assailed the refs wondering how it was possible that no foul could be called when a player wound up on the floor on the verge of unconsciousness. 

[iwu70]

AndOne, I was sitting in the last row, at the top, right next to the NCC fan section.  Surely in my area I heard nothing about "dirty players" or any abuse hurled at individual NCC players.  But as I mentioned before, from my vantage point it surely looked like the shoulder was involved and in the way Jordan went down and was totally out, it surely didn't look like a clear and legal screen.  In my area there were lots of fans yelling at the refs, yes, asking how such play could occur causing Jordan to go down as he did not on "the verge of unconsciousness," but actually knocked out, unconscious . . . and perhaps, well likely ending his season and his stellar basketball career at IWU.  I wondered that myself.  It was an unfortunate play, without doubt.  I too have viewed the video and can see that it was not intentional and that no elbow was involved.  But, in the heat of the moment, given what most fans saw, especially the grave concern about Jordan, out cold lying on the floor motionless for some minutes, one can pretty well understand the anger and feelings of the Titan crowd in wondering why no foul was called.  I don't think this is ignorance, as none of these fans, myself included, had the benefit of calm viewing of the replay video at that moment. 

Chatting up the refs, complaining about the perceived poor performance of the zebras, is part of the game.  The coaches do it all the time.  I'm pretty sure they, the officials, are used to it, . . . and if not, they probably should find another line of work.

[Gregory Sager]

I think that some of the complaints directed at the Wesleyan oldsters by Spencer and others might have something to do with the inappropriateness of continuing to yell at the referees while a player is down on the floor. Let's go back to what Spencer originally said:

I will also say that the older crowd at IWU are very loyal but they lack some basketball knowledge based on the comments they yell at the refs every game I have attended.  Tonight I thought the worst was when Zimmer was hurt by running into the shoulder of a screen.  The North Central player setting the screen may have ducked a shoulder but it clearly wasn't malicious and maybe not even a foul.  The IWU fans are spouting at the ref during the first few minutes that Zimmer lay on the ground with a trainer over him.  This wasn't the students this was the older Titan fans.  I appreciate the passion but a real lack of perspective to be yelling at the officials for a couple minutes when one of your players is laying on the ground injured.  Just an observation.

What Spencer's saying seems sensible to me. When a player is injured and lying on the floor, I think that the polite thing for fans to do is to keep their mouths shut out of respect for the player's condition and the seriousness of the moment, or at least to refrain from yelling stuff at the referees, opposing players, etc. After all, everyone's paramount concern at that moment should be the medical status of the stricken player on the floor, rather than their felt need to express their own partisan ire. I think that that's what Spencer meant by "a real lack of perspective."

This has been a real eye-opener of a day for me. I never had any idea that some Titans fans are annoyed by the crap that some of the gray-haired contingent within the IWU fanbase constantly yell. As I said a few weeks ago on CCIW Chat, one of the ongoing jokes around the CCIW is that a big part of the IWU fanbase consists of people who have somehow managed to watch the Titans for eighty years without ever seeing them commit a foul. What I didn't say is that some -- not all, certainly, perhaps not even most, but some -- of those elderly fans are extremely irritating, because they yell the same thing ad nauseam throughout the entire game and they never, ever acknowledge that their team or coach is capable of doing anything wrong. And they bark this stuff within earshot of Rob and I as we try to do our broadcast.

Now, because our "booth" is next to the visitor's section, it's not unusual for us to hear vociferous opposing fans loudly yelling stuff that is either annoying or inappropriate that nevertheless goes out over the air on our webcast. There's not much that we can do about that, especially in a gym as cramped and acoustically volatile as the crackerbox. But, fortunately, vociferous fans like that tend more often than not to be closer to the action (i.e., further down the stands, behind the bench). Rarely do the loudmouths get right next to the "booth" up in the back rows near center court. But it seems like, every year when Wesleyan comes to town, we get about three or four really loud, really obnoxious green-clad grandpas and grandmas in the back rows who just get the needles on their Victrolas stuck, and we hear the same inane anti-ref or anti-NPU-player comment from them over and over and over again throughout the entire game.

(And I'm sure that, as TitansIWU intimated, they're quite lovely people under normal circumstances.)

I've never posted about this before for three reasons: 1) People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones, and I was as verbally obnoxious as a fan could be in my younger days; 2) I don't want to be accused of generalizing, especially since it's my impression that this is a minority among the green-sweater AARP set; and 3) I do believe in showing respect towards my elders, and I'm reluctant to criticize them -- especially a group of people as loyal, as passionate, and as dedicated as IWU's oldster fans. IWU supporters deservedly take pride in their numbers and their loyalty, and the gray-hairs are a big part of those numbers and that loyalty. So, imagine my surprise when I find out today after reading posts by TitansIWU, Hoosier Titan, and Old Baseliner, that some of the other IWU fans themselves take issue with some of this behavior by their ancient peers. Live and learn, I guess.

(And Hoosier Titan is right that some of the more obnoxious IWU fans are not elderly at all, merely middle-aged. But there's nothing unique about them, unfortunately, because boorish screaming at the refs and opposing players has unfortunately become a trend among middle-aged fans that knows no particular school loyalty. It's not exclusively a Wesleyan problem by any means; it's more of a societal thing. People are less polite than they used to be, and they feel more entitled to verbally assert themselves upon any occasion.)

I asked NPU athletic director Jack Surridge tonight if we could get glass partitions put up around our "booth" for next season. If you can't keep the background noise from the loudmouths out of your microphone, then it's time to drop the cone of silence:



On another topic:

Yes, I would like to see everyone quiet for free throws too.  Unfortunately, behavior is filtering down from D1 and the NBA.  My point was that trying to distract the opposition has been going on for some time now; distracting your own team doesn't make any sense at all!

When I was a student and then a young alumnus, my friends and I became convinced that a dead-quiet gym was a negative sonic environment that would only make a North Park FT shooter nervous. So we quietly mumbled the words, "Background noise, background noise, background noise," in low tones just to give the Vikings shooter some sort of minimal aural backdrop. That snippet of amateur fan psychology became a North Park tradition that lasted for a long time.

(I've asked lots of players over the years how they feel about noise of any kind while they're shooting free throws. The answers are as different as you would expect from different people.)

[TitansIWU]

Greg,

I think you hit on something when you used the words "because they yell the same things ad nauseam", I think this is what gets to me.

Maybe they need to keep their spirit, their passion, their anger, their intensity, and they just need the simple addition of cue cards showing them some new phrases to yell out.

[devildog29]

Greg,

I think you hit on something when you used the words "because they yell the same things ad nauseam", I think this is what gets to me.

Maybe they need to keep their spirit, their passion, their anger, their intensity, and they just need the simple addition of cue cards showing them some new phrases to yell out.

I'm curious if anyone thinks the difference in fan behavior and/or knowledge if you will, has anything to do with a kind of urban/rural breakdown?  I grew up south of 80, so my experience in watching and playing in HS games is in the smaller, downstate farm schools.  This, to me, would be the similar experience of many of the IWU greyhairs.  Is there a noticeable difference on the HS level as well for suburban/city schools vs. the downstate schools?  I don't have an answer myself, but that's one of the first differences that immediately comes to my mind.

[Hoosier Titan]

I started out trying to quote people using HTML and decided that it's too much like work (which I have to get back to shortly!).  This is a good discussion, though.  I do feel that there is a larger issue here, which Greg has correctly identified:  a societal-level lack of civility and sportmanship.  That is why I mentioned episodes of poor student behavior both on the part of IWU students and Wheaton students.  It's not limited to them, either.

I think we're all working with different definitions of "elderly," for one thing.  Old Baseliner identifies himself as "elderly" at 57; I'm in that age range and I don't care for that designation at all.  60 is the new 40, and all that .  I hear lots of dumb things in the crowd at games, and it's true that most of them are coming from people roughly in my age range or older.  The students, on the other hand are either 1) not showing up--crowds have fallen off significantly; 2) saying nothing until the last two minutes if the score is close; or 3) taunting the players with the same old chants of "air ball" and "you can't do that," and trying to distract the opposing team shooting free throws.  This season, add distracting their own players shooting free throws.  Maybe student behavior is different at other schools; I haven't been to a lot of away games this year.  There was certainly good student turnout at Wheaton, but not much better sportmanship (witness the appearance of the aforementioned stuffed banana).

Riding the refs incessantly is annoying in the extreme.  I must confess here that my father and brother were both high school refs in Indiana back in the good ol' days before class basketball.  My brother worked the high school finals three times.  (One of the most ignorant things I hear at CCIW games is "go back to high school."  Good refs are good refs and adjust to the level of play they're judging.)  I grew up making calls to myself, and I still do it constantly at games.  The refs blow calls at every game, and they know it.  If you're a coach or a player, it does you no good to harp on every blocking-charging call and missed traveling violation.  And yet people in the stands feel it's their right to yell abuse at the refs over one call that happened five minutes ago.  Total lack of perspective and yes, of civility.   We've moved our seats more than once to quieter areas because of it.

So, are "elderly" IWU fans worse than the general population?  If so,  are they biased, ignorant, or taking out their aggression on the other team and the officials?  I vote for a mixture of the three.  I'm genuinely interested in what people think.

[AndOne]

Devil--

I personally don't think that there is much, if any, correlation between urban/rural fan knowledge/behavior.
Actually, I'd believe a larger percentage of rural fans may well have a greater knowledge of the game than urban fans. The reason I say this, is that in many smaller towns, the local high school or basketball team or football team, is life. Think back to the movies you've seen like Hoosiers. In many small towns the fans live for the Friday night football game, or the Saturday night basketball game. The people live and breathe local high school and/or college sports. They discuss games and individual plays in amazing detail involving every minute intricacy associated with whatever sport is the subject. When I attended college in Nebraska, I saw this first hand when I would go to high school games with my college buddies, many who came from small towns where they had 100, or often less, in their graduating class. The whole town would be there, and, believe me, they knew the game. In Nebraska, the primary sport was football as it is in other places like Texas, Penn, and Ohio, among others. In Illinois, In, Ky, NY and other places, its basketball. However, whatever the sport, the rural fans level of knowledge is certainly on par with (sub)urban fans.
I think the main difference may be in behavior. Rural fans often have the local sport of choice almost as the core of their life. Almost from birth, sport is life, and allegiance to the local  team, be it high school and/or a small college, is almost always no worse than 3rd, after God and family. On game nights sport may creep up into the #1 spot for a couple of hours. In the suburbs, and the big city, residents often have more diversions in their everyday lives. Sports may occupy a large part of their interest, and of their life, but I think its generally a safe bet that, overall, they have a few more things on their mind than the local high school or college athletic team. Taking this difference into the arena, I sense that while you will of course find many knowledgeable suburban and urban fans who love their team and certainly are not bashful either in shouting that teams praises, or condemning any fan of the opposition. I think that in a largely rural setting, you will find almost, if not, every fan in the stands united in support of their team to the point that, for those 2 hours, the game becomes almost a life or death struggle. The team you cheer for is your religion during the game, if you're cut you bleed your team's color, and any fan or referee who supports the other team or makes a call against your team can only be the devil himself. I think the only role age plays is the fact that the "elderly" fans have had their allegiance and their corresponding bias, and expressed it that much longer. As such, they may a bit more unwilling to accept the possibility that their team fouled, or that the opposition is capable of scoring without being in the lane 3 seconds, or, as in the Wesleyan/NCC game, setting an illegal screen.  JMHO 

[Dennis_Prikkel]

I think the green weenie elders are funny.  Every other school in the CCIW should be happy they are plunking down their greenies for tickets to the games.

I remember the days when North Park had loyal fans that followed them around, too.

But those days are a distant memory now (and fading).

Stupidity of fans has no age, color, gender or school barrier.

As long as Augustana doesn't win the league - I'm happy.

dgp

[iwu70]

Dennis got it about right, esp. the last sentence.  In my day it was as long as Millikin doesn't win . . . but I guess now NCC is the new Augie.

AndOne, also has a very good comment about the IWU/small town fan situation, especially his second paragraph.  I largely agree with his assessment of the sports culture and fan sentiments involved.

Hope IWU can take care of business at Carthage, keep well within the tournament placement race.  This game with Carthage at Kenosha scares me. 

Any comments on the regional rankings?

IWU70