MBB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

[iwu70]

Very delighted to hear 60 is the new 40.     Ypsi, did you hear this?

Greg, I hope you get your bubble, your plexiglass shield, so those obnoxious and rude Titan fans, repetitive in old age, don't ruin your audio stream.  I can well understand how irritating they must be, must be, must be.  Plus, then we won't have to listen to you, your colleague, and your broadcast narrative either, right?  You'll have to change your moniker here to "VikingBubbleBoy" or some such.

No further word here that I have seen on Zimmer's injury, though I'm assuming he won't play at Carthage, making the game @Kenosha scary all the more. 

IWU70

[Hoosier Titan]

I want one of those plexiglass shields at Titan games, too!  Actually, I think they should have them around the bench, because the same people who yell silly things also talk about players.  "S/he can't hit that shot" (usually followed by a swish as the shot goes in).  "Oh no, get X out (or in)."  The players have to hear it, even if they say they don't.

Yes, AndOne pretty much nailed it.  Much more so in the old days, of course.  Now, we're often following other CCIW games on smartphones during the one we're watching, and I suppose one could text or do other things too.

[devildog29]

Devil--

I personally don't think that there is much, if any, correlation between urban/rural fan knowledge/behavior.
Actually, I'd believe a larger percentage of rural fans may well have a greater knowledge of the game than urban fans. The reason I say this, is that in many smaller towns, the local high school or basketball team or football team, is life. Think back to the movies you've seen like Hoosiers. In many small towns the fans live for the Friday night football game, or the Saturday night basketball game. The people live and breathe local high school and/or college sports. They discuss games and individual plays in amazing detail involving every minute intricacy associated with whatever sport is the subject. When I attended college in Nebraska, I saw this first hand when I would go to high school games with my college buddies, many who came from small towns where they had 100, or often less, in their graduating class. The whole town would be there, and, believe me, they knew the game. In Nebraska, the primary sport was football as it is in other places like Texas, Penn, and Ohio, among others. In Illinois, In, Ky, NY and other places, its basketball. However, whatever the sport, the rural fans level of knowledge is certainly on par with (sub)urban fans.
I think the main difference may be in behavior. Rural fans often have the local sport of choice almost as the core of their life. Almost from birth, sport is life, and allegiance to the local  team, be it high school and/or a small college, is almost always no worse than 3rd, after God and family. On game nights sport may creep up into the #1 spot for a couple of hours. In the suburbs, and the big city, residents often have more diversions in their everyday lives. Sports may occupy a large part of their interest, and of their life, but I think its generally a safe bet that, overall, they have a few more things on their mind than the local high school or college athletic team. Taking this difference into the arena, I sense that while you will of course find many knowledgeable suburban and urban fans who love their team and certainly are not bashful either in shouting that teams praises, or condemning any fan of the opposition. I think that in a largely rural setting, you will find almost, if not, every fan in the stands united in support of their team to the point that, for those 2 hours, the game becomes almost a life or death struggle. The team you cheer for is your religion during the game, if you're cut you bleed your team's color, and any fan or referee who supports the other team or makes a call against your team can only be the devil himself. I think the only role age plays is the fact that the "elderly" fans have had their allegiance and their corresponding bias, and expressed it that much longer. As such, they may a bit more unwilling to accept the possibility that their team fouled, or that the opposition is capable of scoring without being in the lane 3 seconds, or, as in the Wesleyan/NCC game, setting an illegal screen.  JMHO 

I too think this is a great point.  Perhaps I shouldn't have used the term "knowledge" in my question as that certainly can have a negative connotation if implying a lack thereof.  But the point was more to the rural vs. (sub)urban fan base.  I think you put it in a better context in that the rural fans perhaps tend to be a bit more fervent than city/suburb fans.  You're right.  For IWU fans living in BloNo, Titan games are THE thing to do for many of them.  Not a knock at all on BloNo.  I like the town.  But in the city settings, there are certainly more social/entertainment activities to compete for people's attention.

[Hoosier Titan]

For IWU fans living in BloNo, Titan games are THE thing to do for many of them.  Not a knock at all on BloNo.  I like the town.  But in the city settings, there are certainly more social/entertainment activities to compete for people's attention.

And I would just add that "more" doesn't necessarily mean "better."  A few years ago, there was an article in the Indianapolis paper about the Pacers' attendance lagging behind the rest of the NBA.  My brother observed that, in Indiana, many people would consider the Pacers a poor third after the local high school and IU/Purdue/Butler/Notre Dame--choose your D1 team.  I guess we're pretty tribal.

I don't consider BloNo truly "rural," though the roots of many fans may be.

[AndOne]

BioNo, with a population of approx 127,000 isn't really rural. Although as Hoosier Titan points out, the roots of many residents probably are.
If you want rural, try places like Hanover, In., Carlinville, Il., or Mt. Vernon, Ia., among many others

[wheels81]

Does it matter how close fans are supposed to be in proximity to the court.  On the video feed from  the Shirk Center during the end of the NCC game there were 4 or 5 student fans (I know apparently students as their hair wasn't gray and they were standing)  that appeared to be standing right on the edge of court opposite the NCC bench.  I know there are refs who won't tolerate such proximity but just curious if there was a rule or not.

[iwu70]

Shirk is an intimate setting for good, loud DIII hoops, surely planned that way.  A touch of Fred Young Fieldhouse in a modern setting.  Many fans sit right behind the Titans bench, many others behind the scorers table, many just below the two "broadcasting areas" -- which, by the way, make some of the noise during FTs -- and the main student sections are right on the sidelines, straight across from the visiting teams' bench area.  That's the way it was designed.  There are sections where you can stand all the time, and also a designated section just behind the visitors bench where visitors fans are seated.  It's a good setup and generally produces a wonderful atmosphere when the crowd is big and active.  The best Pep/Jazz band in the country, the IWU one, makes the Shirk atmosphere one of the best in DIII, IMHO.  When really big crowds, fans even lining all around the railing on the upper level.  Often big groups of Titan fans -- apparently some of the more unruly, rude and boistrous ones - like to sit at both ends along the baseline, especially is seems on the West end of the floor.  I personally love this setup and environment and it makes for a bigtime DIII college game atsmosphere in a tight, almost high school-like gym environment.  Only thing I wish for would be for more comfortable seating, especially for all the "older alums" who don't really hanker much for the hard, very tight bleacher seating of the Shirk.  Also, pretty easy to fall down, with no railings in the up/down aisles of the bleachers.  Biggest complaint I've heard from the really "old old" Titan alum fan base (the era of my parents, not myself) is that many of the "handicapped" parking spots are taken up by cars that don't have legal tags for those spots.  No enforcement.  Makes it tough for such elderly folks to walk long distances in slippery, icey or snowy conditions getting in and out of Shirk on winter game nights.  Just say'in.  I've never seen officials in Shirk do much to control the crowds along the sidelines or baselines, other than moving them back a bit when an in-bounds play is made just in front of them.  Of course, fans can't come on the floor or approach the visitors bench area during regulation play. 

[toooldtohoop]

for what its worth.....after attending an IWU game earlier this year and recognizing the demographics of the crowd....and after listening to a decent amount of commentary regarding the officiating....my wife calmly looked at me and said in regard to the aged greenies....."aren't they cute?"

[Mr. Ypsi]

Mark, sorry to hear that Bloomington still doesn't enforce laws that ought to be enforced (handicapped parking by Shirk); but if the fire marshal had ever enforced capacity limits at Fred Young, a lot of us would have missed a lot of games!   (Guessing from my observations from 1966-70, I'd say the average attendance was 2-300 above legal capacity!)  I had noticed the lack of handrails at Shirk when I was there; perhaps you could nudge some people to place them in at least a section or two - that IS a lawsuit waiting to happen.

[Hoosier Titan]

From Randy Reinhardt on Twitter:

Wesleyan captain Jordan Zimmer passes concussion test after Tuesday collision, return for Saturday's game at Carthage is possible.

Great news!

[Mr. Ypsi]

From Randy Reinhardt on Twitter:

Wesleyan captain Jordan Zimmer passes concussion test after Tuesday collision, return for Saturday's game at Carthage is possible.

Great news!

That is GREAT news - from the descriptions I really feared his career was over.

Missing the rest of the season is highly unfortunate for any player; for a senior it is downright depressing.

[iwu70]

I'm surprised and totally delighted to hear the news about Jordan Zimmer.  Thank God he's OK.  That was quite a hit he took on Tuesday.  Sure hope he can play safely and well and enjoy his remaining games as a Titan and this year's IWU Captain.

Ypsi, yes, I wish parts of Shirk bleacher sections had handrails, and wish they'd check on the parking regs, for those with the legal tags for handicapped parking.  It was particularly bad last Saturday with swim meet, track meet, and several basketball games all the same time.  To be expected, I guess, with such great foot traffic and substantial use of the Shirk Center by so many all at the same time.

Do have fears about this upcoming game in Kenosha for the guys . . . somehow think the women are in a better position to win their tough game up there than the guys.  We'll see.  Carthage must be playing well to put a loss on Wheaton last Tuesday.

Ypsi, aren't you happy that 60 is the new 40?  Wonder what the new 20 must be?  My folks are the old 90s, and they know it and feel it.  Being in the "old old" group is not for wimps, I can tell you for sure.  Any of the 70s, 80s and 90s set that get out to support the Titans, on cold, icy winter nights, on those hard Shirk bleachers, well, I just appreciate and admire them so, regardless of what jokes may be made about them all.  Lived in China too long not to have this strong sense of respect for the older generations and their loyalty and contributions to IWU and to the community at large, in so many ways.  Seeing Lee Short there with his walker, enjoying the game and having a great time, just warms my heart.   Many many others as well. 

Guess you and I, Ypsi, are the "young old" now, right?  40 and holding.  My students in Hong Kong used to say I was in my "middle years."  I'll take it, as somehow I don't think we're going to live to 126.

IWU70

[Mr. Ypsi]

Mark, my younger son is 20 - it is the new 6!

Just kidding, he has matured incredibly in the last three years.  3 years ago I (half)jokingly said we had a defense attorney on speed-dial (and did have to use him twice), but he is now a very nice young man.  But his very serious GF is 19, and somehow seems years older than him.  By and large I think it is no myth that girls mature faster than boys.

Oh what I would give to be 43 (instead of 63) again!  There is no doubt SOME truth to that cliche, but, I fear, not much.   What a joy to be doing (semi)competitive basketball and soccer again!  The spirit is willing but the flesh is weak.

Still, with both parents living independently at 94 and 93, who knows?  Maybe I should try a soccer comeback?!   (I could modify my t-shirt to "I'm 63, what's YOUR excuse"!)

[Gregory Sager]

I started out trying to quote people using HTML and decided that it's too much like work (which I have to get back to shortly!).  This is a good discussion, though.  I do feel that there is a larger issue here, which Greg has correctly identified:  a societal-level lack of civility and sportmanship.  That is why I mentioned episodes of poor student behavior both on the part of IWU students and Wheaton students.  It's not limited to them, either.

The Wheaton student banana used to be part of an ongoing ritual involving a student dressed like a gorilla chasing a student dressed like a banana around the perimeter of King Arena. It's a shtick that's been done to death by other schools as well, and it probably dates back to basketball games played during the era of vaudeville.

I've never been one to tout Wheaton's fan support, because, although they do show up in good numbers, the adults are (in contrast to IWU's) more of a sit-on-their-hands-and-watch-quietly type of a crowd. Aside from the members of the WC football team that sit under the east basket, the Wheaton students don't make much noise, either. But there is a section of students that sit under the west basket who, I hate to admit, have turned into a pretty inventive and amusing group that are giving NPU's Carlson Crazies a good run for their money. One guy in particular did something during the NCC @ WC game that I've never seen before and that I thought bordered on genius. He brought a rim with net attached to the game with him, figured out exactly where the line of sight for the real basket was from the eye level of an opposing player at the free-throw line, and he held up his fake basket along that line of sight whenever a Cardinal got to the line in the second half, moving his fake basket ever-so-slightly to one side or the other as the Cardinal raised his head and went into his shooting motion. He stopped doing it towards the end of regulation. I'm not sure why. I think that the results of whether it actually affected the shooters or not are inconclusive, but it was very clever. Even though he's a Wheaton student, I have to tip my cap to him for the effort.

Greg,

I think you hit on something when you used the words "because they yell the same things ad nauseam", I think this is what gets to me.

Maybe they need to keep their spirit, their passion, their anger, their intensity, and they just need the simple addition of cue cards showing them some new phrases to yell out.

I'm curious if anyone thinks the difference in fan behavior and/or knowledge if you will, has anything to do with a kind of urban/rural breakdown?  I grew up south of 80, so my experience in watching and playing in HS games is in the smaller, downstate farm schools.  This, to me, would be the similar experience of many of the IWU greyhairs.  Is there a noticeable difference on the HS level as well for suburban/city schools vs. the downstate schools?  I don't have an answer myself, but that's one of the first differences that immediately comes to my mind.

I have no experience with downstate high school games, but I sure hope that they don't have to line the walls of the gym with cops the way that they do here in the big city.

I think the main difference may be in behavior. Rural fans often have the local sport of choice almost as the core of their life. Almost from birth, sport is life, and allegiance to the local  team, be it high school and/or a small college, is almost always no worse than 3rd, after God and family. On game nights sport may creep up into the #1 spot for a couple of hours. In the suburbs, and the big city, residents often have more diversions in their everyday lives. Sports may occupy a large part of their interest, and of their life, but I think its generally a safe bet that, overall, they have a few more things on their mind than the local high school or college athletic team. Taking this difference into the arena, I sense that while you will of course find many knowledgeable suburban and urban fans who love their team and certainly are not bashful either in shouting that teams praises, or condemning any fan of the opposition. I think that in a largely rural setting, you will find almost, if not, every fan in the stands united in support of their team to the point that, for those 2 hours, the game becomes almost a life or death struggle. The team you cheer for is your religion during the game, if you're cut you bleed your team's color, and any fan or referee who supports the other team or makes a call against your team can only be the devil himself. I think the only role age plays is the fact that the "elderly" fans have had their allegiance and their corresponding bias, and expressed it that much longer. As such, they may a bit more unwilling to accept the possibility that their team fouled, or that the opposition is capable of scoring without being in the lane 3 seconds, or, as in the Wesleyan/NCC game, setting an illegal screen.  JMHO 

I think that there's a lot of truth in what Mark says here.

Greg, I hope you get your bubble, your plexiglass shield, so those obnoxious and rude Titan fans, repetitive in old age, don't ruin your audio stream.  I can well understand how irritating they must be, must be, must be.  Plus, then we won't have to listen to you, your colleague, and your broadcast narrative either, right?

I'd be astonished if any of them even hear what Rob and I have to say, much less care. But, even if they do, remember this, '70: It's North Park's gym, and Rob and I are North Park's broadcasters. To paraphrase Lesley Gore, "It's my party, and I'll narrate if I want to."

You'll have to change your moniker here to "VikingBubbleBoy" or some such.

"There's no 'Moops', you idiot! I'm going to kill him! 'Moors'! Say 'Moors'!"

[Gregory Sager]

Students who are standing on the floor right on the edge of the playing surface itself may be great for atmosphere, but they present a safety hazard. The front row of the crackerbox is as close to the sidelines as it gets in any D3 gym I've ever seen, and NPU almost got T'ed up in the home game against Wheaton this year because referee Ken Falkner insisted that the Carlson Crazies get off of the floor and either sit or stand in the bleachers. While watching the archive of Tuesday's NCC @ IWU game, specifically the play in which Gamble's screen knocked out Zimmer and the inbounds play in which Gillespie split the IWU press and threw the cherry-picker pass to Tiknis for the easy deuce in the final half-minute, I noticed that there were IWU students standing on the floor right on the edge of the sideline, similar to what Falkner had chastised the Carlson Crazies for doing in the crackerbox. Dunno if Ken Falkner has called any games at Shirk this year, but if he does I'd be interested in seeing if he stops play and threatens to give the Titans a bench technical if IWU students are standing on the floor like that.