MBB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

[Titan Q]

One more consideration on Augustana's placement in the Top 25 vs North Central's...

In addition to November and December games being weighed more, I think it is accurate to say that Augie is still strongly "anchored" in the poll by October expectations...

http://www.d3hoops.com/top25/men/2011-12/preseason


I don't think there is any way 2011-12 results alone are enough to account for the 182 poll point difference between Augustana and North Central.  If you go back and look at Augie's placement in the poll week to week, you will see that they're still the beneficiary of starting off #2.  If I'm right about that, we have some lazy voting going on.

Don't get me wrong - there is not a huge amount of separation between NCC and Augie.  But NCC should be rated higher in the Top 25 than Augie.

[iwu70]

Q, I totally agree with you on this Augie poll thing.  Seems some very lazy or uninformed voters just now.  To me, given what we have seen in the past two months or so, the CCIW teams should be ranked NCC, WC, IWU, then Augie.  I agree not much separation, but performance is performance, esp. in the last 6-7 weeks.  Should be a great CCIW tournament and clearly NCC has earned home court advantage. 

Gotta love Jordan Zimmer chasing down the all-time career trey record . . . and now Olivia Lett, five time CCIW Player of the Week, chasing down many of the all-time women's season scoring, FTs made and other single season records on the women's side.  In the company of Cantrell, Butler, C. Solari . . . mighty fine company.  Jordan's company is some of the shooting royalty of IWU's long basketball tradition, especially Kory and Keelan.  Agree with you on that, too.  Good stuff.

IWU70

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

As a voter... the CCIW has frustrated me with who should be in my Top 25 and who shouldn't. I spent a very long time this week... and in weeks past... trying to break down who should be in or out.

Let me give you my problems I had this week... for starters, I currently have Augustana in my poll, but they are low (not as high as their current ranking).
- Now, NCAA certainly deserves to get some love from me, but they just lost to Wheaton for the second time and since I don't have Wheaton on the ballot going into this week, tough to give NCC a spot over Wheaton.
- Wheaton was considered, but they lost earlier in the week to Carthage gave me concern to give them a spot in my Top 25 this week.
- Augustana has been an enigma... I know very well what they had in talent, especially after watching them in person (calling their games) last year in the Sectional Weekend. They started pretty high in my poll this year, but have steadily fallen and nearly were completely out (falling from #8 to #25 in one week on my poll) when they seemed to right the ship and have slightly rose, but not far - considering what I know has been their struggles of late.

So here is the problem... I can't put in all three teams... simply because, if you noticed from the teams receiving votes outside of the Top 25, there are a LOT of teams to consider this year (I probably consider upwards of 35 some weeks) and putting in three CCIW teams takes away possible from one, two, or three other teams who deserve it maybe more. This is also tough, because the struggles of each team - and yes, through out the season is sometimes a consideration - have not made me very confident about putting them very high. Wheaton has been a Top 15 team for me as has Augustana... but they have shown times when I really wish I didn't have them in the Top 25. I could have easily taken Augustana out this week and replaced them with NCC... but then I am rewarding a team like NCC despite a loss to Wheaton and taking away from Augustana despite no losses. And If I put NCC in... then I have to put in Wheaton... and this gets more and more vicious as I continue to circle around the same problem... and again there are many other teams I am considering.

Are you following? If you are getting confused, welcome to my Sunday nights dealing with the Top 25 this season... strictly from the angle of the CCIW.

Is Augustana getting love because of what I know they are capable of? Maybe. Is NCC not getting love because they weren't in my poll? Maybe. Is Wheaton not getting love because they have shown inconsistencies? Maybe. Put it this way, each week I have been ready to pull the trigger on a move, a week like last gives me pause.

I waited awhile on NCC because I wasn't positive, despite pre-season predictions and last year's results, that the youth had truly grown. I also know that a weak non-conference schedule made them possibly look better than they were... and was unsure of how to read their non-conference schedule this year.

Wheaton - frustrated me. They are one of a handful of teams that I have given love to... only to be quickly disappointed by.

Augustana... may be getting too much respect... but when they were about to be dropped, proved to me they should remain part of the conversation and on my ballot.

Am I comfortable with how I have things placed right now? Not really. If I kept working towards being comfortable... I would need more hours than a day, night, life allows right now. I was so uncomfortable this week... I re-evaluated my Top 15 and shook up most of it and moved teams up and down dramatically in some cases.

I think what I am trying to get at is that I, personally, cannot get a real sense of who is the best in the CCIW and don't think three teams should be in my poll (I have had two many times including Illinois Weslyan at one point). So right now, Augustana is in... next week they can be easily replaced... but there are 10 or more other teams that can be easily replaced at this point.

(Even as I wrote this... I wasn't convinced I should have any CCIW teams in the Top 25 if I couldn't make my mind up over just one.)

[Gregory Sager]

I can make this very easy for you, D-Mac. Either: a) don't include any CCIW teams at all, which is justifiable (the top four teams in the league are all somewhere in the 20-35 range, IMO); or b) include only North Central, putting the Cardinals somewhere in the 20s.

If there is one CCIW team that deserves to be ranked, it's North Central -- not Augustana. It's that easy.

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

Yep - thought about that hard... but as I pointed out... been hard to get them in and Augustana out recently! :-) But that is on my short list of major moves each poll.

[diehardfan]

Since Todd Rariden totally just fibbed on Hoopsville and said he doesn't read these boards, I just thought I'd say hi to him.

With regard to fibbing, you can bank on the fact that the next time Todd Raridon reads D3Hoops will be the first. To put it another way, I've known him since he came to NCC, and he hasn't done it yet. 

I think you'll find thats true of most, if not all, of the CCIW coaches.

Hah, fail. Well for being gone for 5 years I did a lot better with the spelling than I could have... er....

Unless CCIW coaches are an exception, I doubt it. I've gotten way too many emails from coaches due to things I've said here (or had them come up to me and introduce themselves to "diehardfan" to think otherwise. I can't remember why but I am pretty sure a SCIAC coach, I think it might have even been CalTech?, got royally pissed off at me. I doubt they read it exhaustively (omg, did this board always scroll this fast and I just had no life before?), but I find it hard to believe they never look at it at all.

Here is the unfortunate "curtain" at the Griswold...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gh21sQykbuU

Wow, I have always envisioned the Griswold stands being at least three times higher than that due to the way that people here always described it... I don't really see why the curtain is necessary. It probably does more to lessen the noise than help it.

I can make this very easy for you, D-Mac. Either: a) don't include any CCIW teams at all, which is justifiable (the top four teams in the league are all somewhere in the 20-35 range, IMO); or b) include only North Central, putting the Cardinals somewhere in the 20s.

If there is one CCIW team that deserves to be ranked, it's North Central Wheaton -- not Augustana. It's that easy.

I fixed your mistake. It's a good thing I am back here to correct such important errors. What did you guys ever do without me? 

I find the placement of the CCIW teams in the poll pretty weird in comparison to teams in leagues which have been much less impactful in tournament history. I mean, we're probably having an off year, but really??

Unfortunately, I was unable to watch the WC/NCC game due to work, and did not realize how embarrassed the Wheaton students should be for rushing the court. Wheaton prides itself on being smart, rushing the court was not that.

I know it's probably not, but this totally read like sarcasm to me.

It's kinda amusing to have people make fun of away Wheaton fans when we never had any while I was a student and you guys were always making fun of us for that.

I wonder if I send cookies to NPU if it will help them beat NCC...

[Pat Coleman]

North Park's old gym (now Hamming Hall) which once boasted the oldest indoor swimming pool in Chicago (built in 1915), had bleachers only on the stage at one end and the balcony on the other.

Pat Coleman is an aficionado of ancient D3 gyms and has blogged about them before on the Daily Dose, so I was happy to have the opportunity to give him a tour of Hamming Hall when he visited the NPU campus last year and share with him some of the unique, and very strange, history of that ol' pile of bricks.

And thank you for that!

Yes, I love seeing the old gyms. It's interesting to see what schools have turned them into.

[AndOne]

Since Todd Rariden totally just fibbed on Hoopsville and said he doesn't read these boards, I just thought I'd say hi to him.

With regard to fibbing, you can bank on the fact that the next time Todd Raridon reads D3Hoops will be the first. To put it another way, I've known him since he came to NCC, and he hasn't done it yet. 

I think you'll find thats true of most, if not all, of the CCIW coaches.

Hah, fail. Well for being gone for 5 years I did a lot better with the spelling than I could have... er....

Unless CCIW coaches are an exception, I doubt it. I've gotten way too many emails from coaches due to things I've said here (or had them come up to me and introduce themselves to "diehardfan" to think otherwise. I can't remember why but I am pretty sure a SCIAC coach, I think it might have even been CalTech?, got royally pissed off at me. I doubt they read it exhaustively (omg, did this board always scroll this fast and I just had no life before?), but I find it hard to believe they never look at it at all.

Diehard----

I have no doubt that you've been contacted by "way too many" coaches, and that several of your collective "they" may occasionally peak at D3Hoops. However, I know one who you referenced that has absolutely no interest in reading anything "authorities" like you and I might post. Additionally, I'd be willing to bet that, among others, next time either Bosko or The Stomper reads D3Hoops, will be the 1st time. 

[NCF]

Since Todd Rariden totally just fibbed on Hoopsville and said he doesn't read these boards, I just thought I'd say hi to him.

With regard to fibbing, you can bank on the fact that the next time Todd Raridon reads D3Hoops will be the first. To put it another way, I've known him since he came to NCC, and he hasn't done it yet. 

I think you'll find thats true of most, if not all, of the CCIW coaches.

Hah, fail. Well for being gone for 5 years I did a lot better with the spelling than I could have... er....

Unless CCIW coaches are an exception, I doubt it. I've gotten way too many emails from coaches due to things I've said here (or had them come up to me and introduce themselves to "diehardfan" to think otherwise. I can't remember why but I am pretty sure a SCIAC coach, I think it might have even been CalTech?, got royally pissed off at me. I doubt they read it exhaustively (omg, did this board always scroll this fast and I just had no life before?), but I find it hard to believe they never look at it at all.

Diehard----

I have no doubt that you've been contacted by "way too many" coaches, and that several of your collective "they" may occasionally peak at D3Hoops. However, I know one who you referenced that has absolutely no interest in reading anything "authorities" like you and I might post. Additionally, I'd be willing to be that, among others, next time either Bosko or The Stomper reads D3Hoops, will be the 1st time. 

Good post. Coaches should not really care what people post on these boards-unless they're looking for some bulletin board material.  Other than that, I can't see a coach getting all bent out of shape over what pops up here-they should be taking it with a grain of salt/

[CCIWFAN6]

I can make this very easy for you, D-Mac. Either: a) don't include any CCIW teams at all, which is justifiable (the top four teams in the league are all somewhere in the 20-35 range, IMO); or b) include only North Central, putting the Cardinals somewhere in the 20s.

If there is one CCIW team that deserves to be ranked, it's North Central -- not Augustana. It's that easy.

I would make a case that it is much more justifiable to have Wheaton in ranked ahead of North Central.  Looking at total body of work and head to head matchups.

I think the main issue I would see in evaluating NCC would be the way you take into account injuries in voting for a top 25 poll.  NCC was affected by injuries quite a bit early in the year and have gone 12-2 in their last 14 games.  How do you choose to value those losses early in the season when they were clearly not at 100%.  Now, at full strength they have performed up to expectations of the reigning CCIW champs.

That being said, in the last 14 games, they have lost twice and both of those losses are to WC.

[matblake]

Interlude post, not basketball, but interesting anyway. http://athletics.wheaton.edu/news/2012/2/13/MTEN_williams_feature.aspx?path=mten

[NCF]

Interlude post, not basketball, but interesting anyway. http://athletics.wheaton.edu/news/2012/2/13/MTEN_williams_feature.aspx?path=mten

What a great story of courage and determination. Good luck to Jordan! Thanks for sharing the story.

[cardinalpride]

As a voter... the CCIW has frustrated me with who should be in my Top 25 and who shouldn't. I spent a very long time this week... and in weeks past... trying to break down who should be in or out.

Let me give you my problems I had this week... for starters, I currently have Augustana in my poll, but they are low (not as high as their current ranking).
- Now, NCAA certainly deserves to get some love from me, but they just lost to Wheaton for the second time and since I don't have Wheaton on the ballot going into this week, tough to give NCC a spot over Wheaton.
- Wheaton was considered, but they lost earlier in the week to Carthage gave me concern to give them a spot in my Top 25 this week.
- Augustana has been an enigma... I know very well what they had in talent, especially after watching them in person (calling their games) last year in the Sectional Weekend. They started pretty high in my poll this year, but have steadily fallen and nearly were completely out (falling from #8 to #25 in one week on my poll) when they seemed to right the ship and have slightly rose, but not far - considering what I know has been their struggles of late.

So here is the problem... I can't put in all three teams... simply because, if you noticed from the teams receiving votes outside of the Top 25, there are a LOT of teams to consider this year (I probably consider upwards of 35 some weeks) and putting in three CCIW teams takes away possible from one, two, or three other teams who deserve it maybe more. This is also tough, because the struggles of each team - and yes, through out the season is sometimes a consideration - have not made me very confident about putting them very high. Wheaton has been a Top 15 team for me as has Augustana... but they have shown times when I really wish I didn't have them in the Top 25. I could have easily taken Augustana out this week and replaced them with NCC... but then I am rewarding a team like NCC despite a loss to Wheaton and taking away from Augustana despite no losses. And If I put NCC in... then I have to put in Wheaton... and this gets more and more vicious as I continue to circle around the same problem... and again there are many other teams I am considering.

Are you following? If you are getting confused, welcome to my Sunday nights dealing with the Top 25 this season... strictly from the angle of the CCIW.

Is Augustana getting love because of what I know they are capable of? Maybe. Is NCC not getting love because they weren't in my poll? Maybe. Is Wheaton not getting love because they have shown inconsistencies? Maybe. Put it this way, each week I have been ready to pull the trigger on a move, a week like last gives me pause.

I waited awhile on NCC because I wasn't positive, despite pre-season predictions and last year's results, that the youth had truly grown. I also know that a weak non-conference schedule made them possibly look better than they were... and was unsure of how to read their non-conference schedule this year.

Wheaton - frustrated me. They are one of a handful of teams that I have given love to... only to be quickly disappointed by.

Augustana... may be getting too much respect... but when they were about to be dropped, proved to me they should remain part of the conversation and on my ballot.

Am I comfortable with how I have things placed right now? Not really. If I kept working towards being comfortable... I would need more hours than a day, night, life allows right now. I was so uncomfortable this week... I re-evaluated my Top 15 and shook up most of it and moved teams up and down dramatically in some cases.

I think what I am trying to get at is that I, personally, cannot get a real sense of who is the best in the CCIW and don't think three teams should be in my poll (I have had two many times including Illinois Weslyan at one point). So right now, Augustana is in... next week they can be easily replaced... but there are 10 or more other teams that can be easily replaced at this point.

(Even as I wrote this... I wasn't convinced I should have any CCIW teams in the Top 25 if I couldn't make my mind up over just one.)

Dave, seems like you have a bad case of "prisoner of the moment" syndrome when it comes to the top four teams in the CCIW.   

[Dennis_Prikkel]

North Park's old gym (now Hamming Hall) which once boasted the oldest indoor swimming pool in Chicago (built in 1915), had bleachers only on the stage at one end and the balcony on the other.

Pat Coleman is an aficionado of ancient D3 gyms and has blogged about them before on the Daily Dose, so I was happy to have the opportunity to give him a tour of Hamming Hall when he visited the NPU campus last year and share with him some of the unique, and very strange, history of that ol' pile of bricks.

And thank you for that!

Yes, I love seeing the old gyms. It's interesting to see what schools have turned them into.

Carthage's old gym in Carthage, Illinois, was still there the last time I drove by several years ago.

[iwu70]

Pat, another old-style, very historic gym is the one at Monticello, IL. High School.  They've built around it now with some nice, newer amenities and an atrium, but the basic,old-style, very Hoosiers-like Gym is still retained, maintained.  I played there as a high school student.  Monticello is about 25 miles west of U of I, Champaign-Urbana area, very near to the historic Allerton Park.  Lovely places to visit if you are in East Central Illinois, SE of Bloomington and about 35 miles due East of Decatur, Millikin, and the Griz.  The houses along State Street in central Monticello are worth the visit too.

IWU70